L4 to be published by Dragonsfoot..
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Post Posted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:52 pm 
 

Guy Fullerton wrote:UpI already have the pre-layout Word file for the Companion (since I did the layout for it), and I already started a formal edit of the Companion material. This includes, but is not limited to, the grammar & spelling checking built into Word; by themselves, Word's tools are wildly insufficient for realistic editing purposes.


Since when did the grammar and spell checking tools of word processing programs even begin to replace actually reading every word and parsing them? No wonder the average quality of offerings (free or otherwise) by "old school" publishers don't measure up. Come on! How is software more effective than a critical eye and repeated perusal?

I could do better in my sleep than you guys did on the first release.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:06 am 
 

I have no idea who that is aimed at, as I haven't finished physically reading L4 yet, although even a cursory programme 'spellcheck' pulled errors my 6yr old would spot.
Meta, has there been a release now then by 'you guys'??


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:10 am 
 

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Since when did the grammar and spell checking tools of word processing programs even begin to replace actually reading every word and parsing them? ... How is software more effective than a critical eye and repeated perusal?

Exactly my point! (Reread my posts.)

I could do better in my sleep than you guys did on the first release.

Before casting stones, look to see who your target is and what's he's done and is doing. I suggest you reread my earlier posts in this thread.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:29 am 
 

Exactly Guy. As my posts stated, I planned a programme scan followed by a few nights reading when I had time.
Perhaps Meta should stay awake and read the posts unless it's aimed at DF editors??  :)


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:46 pm 
 

As of now, Solo is now actively soliciting edits of L4 over at DF....

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20770&start=600

Mike B.

But controversy? Ridiculous. If they want to see a version with fewer errors, they should send their edits to me. In fact, the first person to throw an edit is welcome to start a Workshop thread to collect them all. Just post a link here. When traffic in such a thread winds down for a week or so, I'll put together a new revision and post it.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:32 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:As of now, Solo is now actively soliciting edits of L4 over at DF....

http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=20770&start=600

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I'd rather them ask for help than allow pride to hold anyone at arm's length.  I anticipate it will be noticeably better eventually.  It sounds like it was quite a mess to begin with.  Hmmmm.....


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:54 am 
 

benjoshua wrote:
I'd rather them ask for help than allow pride to hold anyone at arm's length.  I anticipate it will be noticeably better eventually.  It sounds like it was quite a mess to begin with.  Hmmmm.....


It would have been great if they had offered "in sight" editing four years ago. This thing would look great by now.  The Acaeum is catching an ass-kicking over there for our comments, but I'm ok with that as long as this gets done properly.....

It seems Chris (Solo) might be more concerned with getting this fixed up than with pretending nothing was wrong with it (although some of the posters seem to have taken that view).

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:27 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
It would have been great if they had offered "in sight" editing four years ago. This thing would look great by now.  The Acaeum is catching an ass-kicking over there for our comments,

I would disagree with that assessment.  I've seen only one (one-line) comment so far there (in regards to this) from anybody that I would say implies a negative view about the group here, and as for myself, I'm willing to admit here that the *only* bad thing I've had to say about the criticisms I've seen over here about L4 is that many have appeared to me to digress into the expression of negative opinions about the abilities or motivations of the people who worked on it (which I'm afraid I can't see possibly doing anything but inspiring antipathy, such as the one-line negative comment I referred to earlier), rather than focusing on the problems with the work itself .

Solo's said that somebody is free to start a thread in the Workshop forum on DF for suggested edits, although I notice that nobody has started one yet.  If people can adhere to restricting criticisms to specific issues governing the work itself instead of unsubstantiated side remarks about the abilities or intentions of the people who worked on it, I think that'd be a darn fetching idea.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 9:47 am 
 

xyzchyx wrote:I would disagree with that assessment.  I've seen only one (one-line) comment so far there (in regards to this) from anybody that I would say implies a negative view about the group here, and as for myself, I'm willing to admit here that the *only* bad thing I've had to say about the criticisms I've seen over here about L4 is that many have appeared to me to digress into the expression of negative opinions about the abilities or motivations of the people who worked on it (which I'm afraid I can't see possibly doing anything but inspiring antipathy, such as the one-line negative comment I referred to earlier), rather than focusing on the problems with the work itself .

Solo's said that somebody is free to start a thread in the Workshop forum on DF for suggested edits, although I notice that nobody has started one yet.  If people can adhere to restricting criticisms to specific issues governing the work itself instead of unsubstantiated side remarks about the abilities or intentions of the people who worked on it, I think that'd be a darn fetching idea.


Since the mood has turned decidedly ridiculous over there, I've offered to review the product in the "Reviews" section of DF.  We'll see what kind of rightgeous outrage will be stirred up by this... :roll: I predict more strawmen arguments vis a vis L4 and free beer..... :lol:

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 12:07 pm 
 

I can see both sides of the argument, but I'm surprised that it's still being discussed.

L4 is what it is -- a piece of fantasy writing released to the public for free.  Perhaps it could have been released a bit sooner, or edited a bit better, or hyped a bit less.  It still has some interesting ideas, characters, and places.  It can be salvaged in whole or in part by a DM willing to put in some amount of effort.  The result was mildly disappointing, but "meh".

However, the whole "put up or shut up" argument makes no sense.  There isn't a lot of value to be gained by more volunteers going back and trying to clean it up.  That's just throwing good resources after bad, and they could be put to better use working on unreleased adventures by Pacesetter and others.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:14 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote: and they could be put to better use working on unreleased adventures by Pacesetter and others.


8O

You are going to have to pry those unfinished adventures from my cold, dead hands before I let any of those guys touch them!

Now, if they want to help in the fubared distribution system I made, well... :wink:


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 1:57 pm 
 

bbarsh wrote:You are going to have to pry those unfinished adventures from my cold, dead hands before I let any of those guys touch them!

Well I meant "these guys", not "those guys".  :D  The point being there are many other worthwhile projects that need volunteers.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:57 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Well I meant "these guys", not "those guys".  :D  The point being there are many other worthwhile projects that need volunteers.


In that case, forget everything I just said... :D

Although, strictly speaking, I think L4 could be edited - and by edited, I mean hacked, slashed and tuned - and revised into a fantastic module. It never will be, of course. What startles me the most is the admission that things were let go because "time" was too precious or scarce. (ahem 4 years +   8O ). Ok, I can handle that. But then to go on and eliminate any chance of salvation is what I can't wrap my head around.

They have certainly circled the wagons over at DF on it, and that is unfortunate. Simply that they feel it is necessary is somewhat disturbing. Take the damn beer goggles off and drink some coffee.

This entire event was similar to the super fan who finally gets to meet his hero only to discover that he is steriod-injecting, wife-beating, drunken slob. There are some doors better left closed, and just maybe, those old doors at TSR should stay chained shut...


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:57 am 
 

Having begun on the proofread, I tend to agree. I am tasked with proofreading the text alone. Not making it into a logical or usable product. This would indeed be a major undertaking. As it is, the product is very linear and PCs are railroaded through a story where their decisions to act are already predermined and scripted for them. No choice or game play. Just sit there and role the dice and do what the DM tells you to.

It might have a lot of Len Lakofka's imagery and feel about it, particularly later on in the 'thing' (don't really feel you can call it a module), but as a product or something to draw pleasure or gameplay from, it has been totally destroyed by someone.

DF would have us believe that that's the way Len wanted it and that's the product that he crafted. I have no reason to believe that that is not the case. All I can say is that Len produces very poor work, has little understanding of Dungeons & Dragons or the principles and mechanics of producing enjoyable gameplay, and I see now why he has always been and remains a marginal writer who got lucky and managed to get published once and then failed to ever monopolise on that situation.

I can only imagine his reletive reclusivity is necessary from the RPG community, lest the truth be found out, and I can now see what L3 is the way it is. TSR/WoTC made the bast product they could given the materials the author gave them to work with. Likewise, let's no longer lambast DF. They to have done the best they can with the materials the auther has given them to work with.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 12:40 am 
 

Guy Fullerton wrote:Update: I finished the edits on the Companion, and threw it over the wall to Gnarley and Lenard. They blessed it, and it will get posted for download in a day or two.

It looks like the new, re-edited version of L4C The Lendore Isle Companion is now available for download. (Go to DF and download it again from the same place you got it last time; it will be the new version.)


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