Aha. I think I see now. Wow.Basically, you guys realized Len's stuff wasn't up to snuff years ago, but rather than piss him off (and possibly lose L5-L10), you choose to ignore the sub-standard nature of the material. Well, no one over here not part of DF's production team is obligated to hand-hold Len through his fear of editors. If you guys want to be yes-men and rubber-stamp Len's stuff, that's cool, but don't expect everyone to go along with the plan. Besides, nothing we would do would have an effect anyway on what Len has already released.
Fid wrote:Thank you for clarifying this. Of course, you can alter it for your own use and even move the setting from Greyhawk to the Moon if you want. I just don't think you can claim that your finished product is L4 by Len Lakofka without his blessing. Fair use and all that.
No, we simply chose to respect the man and his legacy. Suggestions were offered. Some were accepted, some were not. For example, at one point a team member pointed out that an earlier version read more like a "campaign setting" than an "adventure module". Len saw our point and added some more encounter areas. As for hosting L5-L10 at DF, I don't think Steve or Gnarley really cares. There are no "market share" issues here. Len had the opportunity to take L4 anywhere (Canonfire, his own site, etc.) during the long delay, but he decided to stick with DF. He is also free to do what he wants with L5-L10.
Badmike wrote:If you had nothing to do with this, why choose to speak on the behalf of those that did? I'm sure if they want to explain anything they can post here themselves. Sounds like you didn't have a horse in this race, why apologize on their behalf?
mbassoc2003 wrote:TBH, and in defence of LL, I do believe LL has a right to have the work he has produced presented in whatever way he sees fit. Now, if we want to say it's crap, or unusable, so be it, he has an absolute right to do as he wishes.My only criticism was of the production quality of what DF put out, and by that I mean the level of mistakes made within the body of the text itself. I do not think Len was aware of these errors in the final works, but I may be wrong. I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Whilst I do not like them maps, and the error with the Grest Maps should have been picked up, I still think if LL wanted the maps that way, so be it.Now, you may look on DF as an editor/producer and say, "You should the balls to stand up to the author...", but that is an editorial decision, and one that is their to make. On the grounds that the product is free, I can see no reason the criticise that decision either.My only beef was with the proofreading and a repub' will deal with that. To this end, DF are taking action.I would welcome any third party derivitives that come from this body of work, and heartily support the idea of the reworking by another team.
Badmike wrote:Well I also think it reads more like a campaign setting myself, and if as editors someone steered Len that way, it was the right thing to do. But as Bill said above, sometimes an editors job is to be the bad guy. I can understand that due to circumstances that wasn't in the cards. I understand in the end you are putting Len's vision up there, and due to his fear of editors you have to tread lightly. My point is that a 3rd party doesn't have this responsibility, and once Len's work is "out there", it's out there. It's a man's instinct to tinker.Mike B.
Egg of Coot wrote:Primarily because you and several others were claiming that the entire DF mod team had conspired to short change the poor, poor people who did so little, and yet deserved so, so much more. I'm fine with taking responsibility for things I've done, but not so much when it comes to taking the credit/blame/whatever for the things I didn't.But, I'll digress now as y'all obviously know far more about everything that goes on at DF than I ever will . . .The Egg
The only time I've ever pulled anything off a site was at Dragonsfoot, after site administration over there pissed me off when they banned me for a week simply because I vented at a totally different site over their obscenely heavy-handed mismanagement of their posters. <rant>They could ban me right now and I wouldn't care. I haven't been there since that time, and the only way I'll return is when the site owner passes on the site to someone who actually has a clue dealing with people.</rant>
Len Lakofka (author of all three L-series modules) stated in mid 2000 that modules L4 and L5 are in an unfinished state, and it would be a "200-hour project" to bring them to production level. He estimates a 15% chance that he will do so in the near future.
Fid wrote:Its really an amalgam of three separate adventure areas. The action starts in Restenford after the events of L1 through L3 and moves on to the environs of the towns of Grest, Tellar and Cobblethorp.Its a little railroady in that events are set to occur on a timeline (like L2), so if the players dawdle - they may get left behind. I believe Len's goal is to essentially give us his campaign for posterity. When all the modules and the Companion/Gazateer are done (he has started L5), the DM will have a very detailed campaign setting with a timeline and a series of sequential modules of increasing difficulty. The module will be of the most use for new campaigns starting in Restenford. By the time a party gets through L1 through L4, L5 will probably be done. DMs looking for a one-off adventure to drop into existing campaigns may be a little disappointed - but there are several adventure areas including a cool maze/trap that could be harvested for use elsewhere.DM knowledge of L1 through L3 would help. L1 and L2 are free from WoTC, but L3 is kind of scarce. Perhaps someone would be willing to post a synopsis of L3?
Guy Fullerton wrote:Hold off on the Companion please.I already have the pre-layout Word file for the Companion (since I did the layout for it), and I already started a formal edit of the Companion material. This includes, but is not limited to, the grammar & spelling checking built into Word; by themselves, Word's tools are wildly insufficient for realistic editing purposes.I'm just about half-way finished.I'm not doing adhering to my highest standards (don't get me started on inconsistent numbering language in the manuscript), but the result should be on par with dragonsfoot's best editing results.When I'm finished, I'm going to do a re-layout and hand it over to Gnarley again.
Guy Fullerton wrote:UpI already have the pre-layout Word file for the Companion (since I did the layout for it), and I already started a formal edit of the Companion material. This includes, but is not limited to, the grammar & spelling checking built into Word; by themselves, Word's tools are wildly insufficient for realistic editing purposes.
MetamorphosisSigma wrote:Since when did the grammar and spell checking tools of word processing programs even begin to replace actually reading every word and parsing them? ... How is software more effective than a critical eye and repeated perusal?
I could do better in my sleep than you guys did on the first release.
