ashmire13 wrote:To clarify for Fid, my intentions at the moment are to only spend a few hours over a few evenings over a few weeks (at the absolute most), to convert to an editable doc that I can then play around with if I wish to.I may not even get that far.But if I do, it may involve re-structuring some sentences so that it reads in a better manner (from the small amounts I have read). All of which would be for my own personal use.I doubt very much indeed that I need anyones permission for that. I may then supply a copy to my gaming friends who wish to use it, but it would not be 'published' anywhere, or uploaded/hosted for free anywhere either. Nor would it be in pdf form.Neither would it have any of the credits changed or added.Just a little project that I may play with to pass a few hours.
Badmike wrote:I'm not going to contact WOTC the next time I alter Lareth's stats from T1 for my own enjoyment, either.
Badmike wrote:Nobody is touching Len's version. Len's version is right there published. Undoubtedly his manuscript is right there in front of him also. Nothing we are doing changes that a bit. His legacy is perfectly preserved. This is another thing entirely.Frankly not to be an ass, but I didn't call up EGG when I changed G1-3 to second edition. I didn't write David Cook and ask if it was ok to completely rewrite I1 Forbidden City and do my own take on the "Lost Jungle City" riff. I didn't know Frank at the time, but I wouldn't have called him up and asked him permission to turn the Temple of Elemental Evil into the "entry level" of my Night Below campaign (completely rewritten, of course). But we are supposed to tread lightly around Len and ask his permission, cap in hand and eyes downcast, to fix something that's out there for public consumption?I think Len has made it pretty clear his editorial choices and how he wanted L4 to look. I'm not interested in him signing off on another version; that might have been the problem before, I don't know. Some of the things I really dislike about L4 might be "deal breakers" (did Len ask for the magic item descriptions as foonotes at the bottom of the page, for example?) I'm not interested in Len endorsing it. I'm not interested in Len claiming or disclaiming it (although why on earth he would care what this niche website did with his creation....). I would like, however, to be able to read it from start to finish and have it make some sort of sense.I have tons of respect for Len. But since this isn't in any way "official' and unlikely to be distributed except very informally (the Acaeum doesn't host anything and I wouldn't suggest they host this because of the dubious legal standing it has anyway), I honestly don't know why he would care what we do with it.If Bill does want to work on this, and we fix it up, we can always present "our" version to Len and/or Dragonsfoot. If they want nothing to do with it, will still always have a readable and playable version for ourselves. It's a completely separate thing from the L4 Len put out and shouldn't be taken as "replacing" his vision.Mike B.
Aha. I think I see now. Wow.Basically, you guys realized Len's stuff wasn't up to snuff years ago, but rather than piss him off (and possibly lose L5-L10), you choose to ignore the sub-standard nature of the material. Well, no one over here not part of DF's production team is obligated to hand-hold Len through his fear of editors. If you guys want to be yes-men and rubber-stamp Len's stuff, that's cool, but don't expect everyone to go along with the plan. Besides, nothing we would do would have an effect anyway on what Len has already released.
Fid wrote:Thank you for clarifying this. Of course, you can alter it for your own use and even move the setting from Greyhawk to the Moon if you want. I just don't think you can claim that your finished product is L4 by Len Lakofka without his blessing. Fair use and all that.
No, we simply chose to respect the man and his legacy. Suggestions were offered. Some were accepted, some were not. For example, at one point a team member pointed out that an earlier version read more like a "campaign setting" than an "adventure module". Len saw our point and added some more encounter areas. As for hosting L5-L10 at DF, I don't think Steve or Gnarley really cares. There are no "market share" issues here. Len had the opportunity to take L4 anywhere (Canonfire, his own site, etc.) during the long delay, but he decided to stick with DF. He is also free to do what he wants with L5-L10.
Badmike wrote:If you had nothing to do with this, why choose to speak on the behalf of those that did? I'm sure if they want to explain anything they can post here themselves. Sounds like you didn't have a horse in this race, why apologize on their behalf?
mbassoc2003 wrote:TBH, and in defence of LL, I do believe LL has a right to have the work he has produced presented in whatever way he sees fit. Now, if we want to say it's crap, or unusable, so be it, he has an absolute right to do as he wishes.My only criticism was of the production quality of what DF put out, and by that I mean the level of mistakes made within the body of the text itself. I do not think Len was aware of these errors in the final works, but I may be wrong. I will give him the benefit of the doubt. Whilst I do not like them maps, and the error with the Grest Maps should have been picked up, I still think if LL wanted the maps that way, so be it.Now, you may look on DF as an editor/producer and say, "You should the balls to stand up to the author...", but that is an editorial decision, and one that is their to make. On the grounds that the product is free, I can see no reason the criticise that decision either.My only beef was with the proofreading and a repub' will deal with that. To this end, DF are taking action.I would welcome any third party derivitives that come from this body of work, and heartily support the idea of the reworking by another team.
Badmike wrote:Well I also think it reads more like a campaign setting myself, and if as editors someone steered Len that way, it was the right thing to do. But as Bill said above, sometimes an editors job is to be the bad guy. I can understand that due to circumstances that wasn't in the cards. I understand in the end you are putting Len's vision up there, and due to his fear of editors you have to tread lightly. My point is that a 3rd party doesn't have this responsibility, and once Len's work is "out there", it's out there. It's a man's instinct to tinker.Mike B.
Egg of Coot wrote:Primarily because you and several others were claiming that the entire DF mod team had conspired to short change the poor, poor people who did so little, and yet deserved so, so much more. I'm fine with taking responsibility for things I've done, but not so much when it comes to taking the credit/blame/whatever for the things I didn't.But, I'll digress now as y'all obviously know far more about everything that goes on at DF than I ever will . . .The Egg
The only time I've ever pulled anything off a site was at Dragonsfoot, after site administration over there pissed me off when they banned me for a week simply because I vented at a totally different site over their obscenely heavy-handed mismanagement of their posters. <rant>They could ban me right now and I wouldn't care. I haven't been there since that time, and the only way I'll return is when the site owner passes on the site to someone who actually has a clue dealing with people.</rant>
Len Lakofka (author of all three L-series modules) stated in mid 2000 that modules L4 and L5 are in an unfinished state, and it would be a "200-hour project" to bring them to production level. He estimates a 15% chance that he will do so in the near future.
Fid wrote:Its really an amalgam of three separate adventure areas. The action starts in Restenford after the events of L1 through L3 and moves on to the environs of the towns of Grest, Tellar and Cobblethorp.Its a little railroady in that events are set to occur on a timeline (like L2), so if the players dawdle - they may get left behind. I believe Len's goal is to essentially give us his campaign for posterity. When all the modules and the Companion/Gazateer are done (he has started L5), the DM will have a very detailed campaign setting with a timeline and a series of sequential modules of increasing difficulty. The module will be of the most use for new campaigns starting in Restenford. By the time a party gets through L1 through L4, L5 will probably be done. DMs looking for a one-off adventure to drop into existing campaigns may be a little disappointed - but there are several adventure areas including a cool maze/trap that could be harvested for use elsewhere.DM knowledge of L1 through L3 would help. L1 and L2 are free from WoTC, but L3 is kind of scarce. Perhaps someone would be willing to post a synopsis of L3?
Guy Fullerton wrote:Hold off on the Companion please.I already have the pre-layout Word file for the Companion (since I did the layout for it), and I already started a formal edit of the Companion material. This includes, but is not limited to, the grammar & spelling checking built into Word; by themselves, Word's tools are wildly insufficient for realistic editing purposes.I'm just about half-way finished.I'm not doing adhering to my highest standards (don't get me started on inconsistent numbering language in the manuscript), but the result should be on par with dragonsfoot's best editing results.When I'm finished, I'm going to do a re-layout and hand it over to Gnarley again.