bbarsh wrote:Mike,
I can't believe I am saying this, but I will do it unless someone else has a strong desire.

I would need a few people to help out.

1) Somebody needs to convert that pdf into a word document.

2) Somebody to help with the maps.

3) A shitload of proofreaders and possible playtesters.

I will take care of the rewrite and redesign. In my opinion, it needs a complete redesign so it can be in ready to play format.

I will also work on getting some illustrators on board.

All that and we can turn this puppy around in short order.

I can produce some new Artwork, as I'm slightly embarrassed of the old stuff I did 3 years ago. (actually the first artwork I had attempted in 15 years).
So I can definately expand and Improve!

ashmire13 wrote:FWIW, I've converted L4 and the Companion to Word and run a spell & grammar check through it, which took around 90 minutes.
I've read sections that just don't flow correctly, but haven't started re-working sentence structure as such. If anyone wants a Word doc copy to play with, just PM me with your email.

Hold off on the Companion please.

I already have the pre-layout Word file for the Companion (since I did the layout for it), and I already started a formal edit of the Companion material. This includes, but is not limited to, the grammar & spelling checking built into Word; by themselves, Word's tools are wildly insufficient for realistic editing purposes.

I'm just about half-way finished.

I'm not doing adhering to my highest standards (don't get me started on inconsistent numbering language in the manuscript), but the result should be on par with dragonsfoot's best editing results.

When I'm finished, I'm going to do a re-layout and hand it over to Gnarley again.

I only have the Companion files, though, so I can't really help with L4 itself.

Fid wrote:Just a suggestion, but don't you guys think you owe Len enough respect to run your proposal by him first, get his buy-in and then allow him to sign-off on the final product?

Good point, Fid.

I don't think any of the proposals here include ignoring Mr. Lakofka, or doing something he does not wish done.

I suspect he will be happy with the fixes and additions.

His own statement about an L-4.1 version seems to invite tinkering.

It sounds to me like the reception for L4 might have tempered his reluctance to allow editing.

A simple reorganization of material...such as placing the adventure in a more approachable context within the background material...might do wonders for the text.  And who would really object to free quality artwork and additional maps?

FormCritic wrote:On a second reading, however:

I'm sure that at some point there will be L4.1 correcting the little stuff

Perhaps that indicates that the author does not see all that much wrong with the existing text.  Perhaps a lighter tread really is called for.

Bingo!  Did it every occur to any of you folks that us poorly educated (thanks Ian) folks over at DF may have actually recognized the structure and flow issues years ago?

Lets huddle with the DF team (Gnarley, Steve and Solo) and decide on whether we want to approach Len on more than the "little stuff".  Also, imagine if you were Len and stumbled on this thread (including my side Porn adventure).  Re-read some of this stuff and tell me how you would react.

Fid wrote:Just a suggestion, but don't you guys think you owe Len enough respect to run your proposal by him first, get his buy-in and then allow him to sign-off on the final product?

You all seem worried about protecting his legacy, but did you ever think that maybe he has some of his own views on how he wants his material presented for future generations?

His biggest fear from Day 1 was that some editor would take L4 completely out of his hands and redo it (as was tried with L1 and as happened with L3).  If an Acaeum version or joint DF/Acaeum version is where you end up, don't you think it would be more credible if Len endorsed it?

Do you really want to host something that Len disclaims like L3?

Nobody is touching Len's version. Len's version is right there published. Undoubtedly his manuscript is right there in front of him also.  Nothing we are doing changes that a bit. His legacy is perfectly preserved.  This is another thing entirely.

Frankly not to be an ass, but I didn't call up EGG when I changed G1-3 to second edition.  I didn't write David Cook and ask if it was ok to completely rewrite I1 Forbidden City and do my own take on the "Lost Jungle City" riff.  I didn't know Frank at the time, but I wouldn't have called him up and asked him permission to turn the Temple of Elemental Evil into the "entry level" of my Night Below campaign (completely rewritten, of course). But we are supposed to tread lightly around Len and ask his permission, cap in hand and eyes downcast, to fix something that's out there for public consumption?

I think Len has made it pretty clear his editorial choices and how he wanted L4 to look.  I'm not interested in him signing off on another version; that might have been the problem before, I don't know.  Some of the things I really dislike about L4 might be "deal breakers" (did Len ask for the magic item descriptions as foonotes at the bottom of the page, for example?) I'm not interested in Len endorsing it. I'm not interested in Len claiming or disclaiming it (although why on earth he would care what this niche website did with his creation....). I would like, however, to be able to read it from start to finish and have it make some sort of sense.

I have tons of respect for Len.  But since this isn't in any way "official' and unlikely to be distributed except very informally (the Acaeum doesn't host anything and I wouldn't suggest they host this because of the dubious legal standing it has anyway), I honestly don't know why he would care what we do with it.

If Bill does want to work on this, and we fix it up, we can always present "our" version to Len and/or Dragonsfoot. If they want nothing to do with it, will still always have a readable and playable version for ourselves. It's a completely separate thing from the L4 Len put out and shouldn't be taken as "replacing" his vision.

Mike B.

Remember though, L4 is covered by copyright, which means that altered versions (derivative works) would *ALWAYS* subject to the approval of original copyright holder.  Whether Len still has his original manuscript doesn't change the fact that making changes to it without his permission is infringing on copyright.

Now that said, Len did say on DF that:

Always remember it's YOURS now so do the fix you feel right and go forward.

 So it's understandable that some people think that they already have the copyright holder's permission... except that he was posting this on a DF forum, and in response to a post by one of the people who helped this project see the light of day, so the use of "yours" may be ambiguous.

However...  in the same post he also says

I'm sure that at some point there will be L4.1 correcting the little stuff but that is up to Dragonsfoot.

(emphasis mine) Here, what he means by "yours" is explicitly spelled out.

The copyright notice also explicitly states that:

The material within this AD&D game resource is Copyright © 2009-2010 Lenard Lakofka and is used under
exclusive permission.
You may download, store, redistribute or generally circulate this material within this publication; but you must
keep all copyright information intact and distribute the files as is.
No modification is permitted without express written permission from Dragonsfoot UK.

I'd dare say "written permission" probably means something a little more concrete than just a posting on a public forum.  Certainly I don't think Len's remark would qualify as anything resembling express permission, especially given the fact that not two sentences later he says it is up to Dragonsfoot.

Badmike wrote:Once again, no one is touching Len's stuff. If we do this it's for our own personal enjoyment

That's fine for one's own private use, but it wouldn't be advised to distribute it without appropriate permission... otherwise it's copyright infringement.

Badmike wrote:It really does a disservice to his work to have it in a less than stellar form

In your opinion... and, I will admit, in the opinion of more than a handful of other people here... but you can't please everybody, and some people are actually quite taken with it, obvious typos and typesetting errors notwithstanding... some of which are being corrected even now and an update will be posted imminently.

So maybe L4 isn't Len's finest work in comparison to others, but does that really matter?   L4's real value isn't in its historical significance or background, how much it fulfills people's expectations, or how perfect (or imperfect) it may be as a whole, its only real value lies ultimately in whatever enjoyment that people will get from utilizing it while actually playing a game of AD&D.  If it accomplishes that, then it will have accomplished as much as any module designer could wish for their creation.

Mars wrote:According to the copyright that you have provided, Len doesn't actually have any say in the matter at all.  The written permission must come from Dragonsfoot UK which means the owner of Dragonsfoot.org (not even the moderators).

Well, I dare say that Len likely still has the authority to grant permission to people to make derivative works, although I can't be 100% certain of that.  Nevertheless, I was pointing it out that it could quite possibly be construed that Mr Lakofka's post was actually granting such permission.  It does not, however... even within its own context.

ashmire13 wrote:To clarify for Fid, my intentions at the moment are to only spend a few hours over a few evenings over a few weeks (at the absolute most), to convert to an editable doc that I can then play around with if I wish to.

I may not even get that far.

But if I do, it may involve re-structuring some sentences so that it reads in a better manner (from the small amounts I have read). All of which would be for my own personal use.

I doubt very much indeed that I need anyones permission for that. I may then supply a copy to my gaming friends who wish to use it, but it would not be 'published' anywhere, or uploaded/hosted for free anywhere either. Nor would it be in pdf form.

Neither would it have any of the credits changed or added.

Just a little project that I may play with to pass a few hours.  

I think that is the gist of what we are saying and doing.

I'm not going to contact WOTC  the next time I alter Lareth's stats from T1 for my own enjoyment, either.  

The work is on extremely dubious legal ground as it is (using and mentioning places owned by WOTC) and no one is talking about doing anything to it for anything but our own (gaming) enjoyment. We don't need Len's (or WOTC's) permission for that....

Mike B.