L4 to be published by Dragonsfoot..
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:59 am 
 

sauromatian wrote:
Certainly there are flow problems (mostly due to sentence length or comma placement), & after a little more reading I've found many more typos. There's quite a bit of awkward phrasing. 2-3 days work for a good editor to fix, although ferreting out internal inconsistencies could take some time.

I take it that quite a few people have worked on this book over the years? Maybe it was a problem of too many cooks, each with their strengths & weaknesses as writers.

I notice the "1st Edition January 2010" on the back sheet. Let's go through it and proofread it. Seperate the two maps (Grest 3 and 4) onto adjacent sheets, and release a 2nd Edition.


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Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:36 am 
 

Look the problem with the maps has been identified and Solo said he's going to fix it.  It would have been taken care of a lot sooner, if someone (including me) actually t thought to send Solo an email or PM telling him about the problem.

Instead we all assumed he was omniscient and would learn of the problem through osmosis as more and more people made web posts to complain about it.

Look, Solo has his own business and a family to take care of.  It is unreasonable to expect him to drop everything and get right on this.  Remember, this just a game people!

If any of you, as DMs, are so committed to following every word and text as written and can't improvise over a simple missing map, something is wrong with old school gaming.  Hint:  Its a tower, each level has the same footprint, just different furniture!

  


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:41 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:I notice the "1st Edition January 2010" on the back sheet. Let's go through it and proofread it. Seperate the two maps (Crest 3 and 4) onto adjacent sheets, and release a 2nd Edition.


mbassoc:

It looks like you misspelled Grest as "Crest" in the above post.  Can you please edit and re-post ASAP?  I'm disappointed.  :wink:

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:56 pm 
 

:oops:

Would like to have seen your avatar, Fid.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:03 pm 
 

Nothing to stop anyone from making their own, edited version, with old-school maps and offering it back to the creators...is there?


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:07 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:Nothing to stop anyone from making their own, edited version, with old-school maps and offering it back to the creators...is there?

Suppose not, but I'd imagine it'd go down like a lead balloon.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:10 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:Nothing to stop anyone from making their own, edited version, with old-school maps and offering it back to the creators...is there?

It wouldn't be accepted because - as I said before - Len wanted and still wants these colored maps instead of good old blue & white ones.

Still nothing to stop you or anyone to make them for your own use.  :)

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:13 pm 
 

Well if anyone happens to make those blue and white maps I'd like to have a copy.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:18 pm 
 

FormCritic wrote:Nothing to stop anyone from making their own, edited version, with old-school maps and offering it back to the creators...is there?


I'm going to kinda have a look at doing that myself, although I can't seem to get the old-school maps in hand.

I also don't have a pdf creator but I can switch it from pdf to word.

Not sure how far I'll go with this, but I'm going to give it a go over the next two nights.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:08 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:
I'm going to kinda have a look at doing that myself, although I can't seem to get the old-school maps in hand.

I also don't have a pdf creator but I can switch it from pdf to word.

Not sure how far I'll go with this, but I'm going to give it a go over the next two nights.


Please give it a try.  Its a fan produced work.  Fans can do whatever they want with it.  As Sir Clarence said, Len is not going to change the official .pdf but if someone wants to make alternative maps and put them on the web free for all to see, go for it.

While its probably anathema for you folks, people have been remaking original TSR module maps for years and posting them on the web.

Also, for those of you who want to proof L5, show Gnarley your stuff by marking up a few sections of L4 to show how good a proofer you are and maybe you'll be "hired".  If you get the job, just don't take 9 months and send back your mark-up with just one edit!  (You know who you are).

  


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:16 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote::oops:

Would like to have seen your avatar, Fid.


Would have liked to have you as a proofer a couple years ago if you're as good as claim!

Remember the proofers didn't get a nice layed-out document, they got a huge Word file with an eclectic mix of fonts, bolds, underlines, italics and colors all meant to mean different things with no consistency from section to section.

I think so much time was spent rationalizing all of this that some of the stuff you all noted slipped through.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:34 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Suppose not, but I'd imagine it'd go down like a lead balloon.


I don't see why.  There's really nothing to stop anyone from doing it and I imagine that the response would be quite enthusiastic.

Please understand that I am not joining the editing critique strand.

It just seems to me that if the enthusiasm is there, those who care about the maps and the editing might find it a really rewarding project.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:03 pm 
 

Fid wrote:
Would have liked to have you as a proofer a couple years ago if you're as good as claim!

I volunteered at the time.
I have been asked to go through it pending re-release.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:12 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Yes. Level 3 and Level 4 are supposed to be on separate pages and the PDF has been printed with Levels 3 and 4 overlapping on the one page. The corrected file is available, but it's not available to DFer through the website. Via direct e-mail only as per the current DF thread. So why not just chage the file on DF so everyone can have it?

You've got the corrupted copy I have.

I'm not going to DF to download a new copy, having received my copy from someone who did go to DF. I fixed my copy already, but why the revised version isn't available at DF is anyone's guess. <sarcasm>Knowing Steve and his penchant for mismanaging DF, it's likely due to simple laziness.</sarcasm>



  


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:16 pm 
 

Interesting thread.  I  always find it interesting to read the DF bashing that occurs on other sites.  "The place is full of brainless assh0les.  Steve doesn't know what he's doing.  The mods are all part of some sinister cabal against me. etc. etc. etc."  Some of the complainers who were banned over at DF, K&K, etc. should maybe stop to consider that their behavior was the common denominator in all their troubles at the various sites and place blame accordingly.  But, let's face it, that'll never happen . . .

Anyway, a few minor points:

1) Most of the moderating team was not involved with the L4 project.  The two who run DF publications were - that's it.  Most of us are too busy with other things even if we wanted to be involved.  Besides, I see my name in print all the time - so the prime motivation for participating is gone for me, right? . . .

2) Those who scream about errors etc. in the text not being corrected during the long delays seem to forget that if people aren't available do the work, the work (surprisingly) doesn't get done.  At one point, there was essentially no one left on the DF Production Team.  For a while we tried leaving the drafts out at night for the magic elves to come and edit, but they were a bunch of lazy bastards and didn't get much accomplished . . .

3) The DF Production team is well aware that there are a number of problems with the L4 publication in its current form.  From what I understand, there is an ongoing discussion of rectifying these problems.  But, I don't know all the details - see point #1.

I'm always surprised by the sense of entitlement that pervades the OSG community.  "We deserve better products.  We deserve better moderation.  We deserve this that and everything else."  It's one of the main reasons I've come to to really despise the hobby these days.  Arm chair critics crying and rending their garments over how the people doing the creative work are mercilessly screwing them at every turn.  "I'd have done it SO much better!"  Well, on behalf of DF I'd like to apologize for all the inconvenience and hardship you had to endure while our members worked on the project, and you're welcome to ask for your money back . . .

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:23 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:I volunteered at the time.
I have been asked to go through it pending re-release.


OK, just remember that it is Grest not Crest.  If you screw up, you'll be at the mercy of these boards - not to mention every armchair amateur attorney trying to defend Procter & Gamble's IP.

Also, please try to be nice to the people you meet.  One of the things I enjoyed about this project was making new friends.  Sometimes friendships are more important than commas.

And the answer is No, Len probably isn't going to sell you any of his really cool old TSR stuff.  He's more the type to just give it to a bunch of kids to play with than let you guys lock it up in a vault.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:55 pm 
 

Fid wrote:
OK, just remember that it is Grest not Crest.  If you screw up, you'll be at the mercy of these boards - not to mention every armchair amateur attorney trying to defend Procter & Gamble's IP.

Also, please try to be nice to the people you meet.  One of the things I enjoyed about this project was making new friends.  Sometimes friendships are more important than commas.

And the answer is No, Len probably isn't going to sell you any of his really cool old TSR stuff.  He's more the type to just give it to a bunch of kids to play with than let you guys lock it up in a vault.


Fid,
I think you need to shake that preconcieved notion that all of acaeum guys are looking to horde and hide away everything we can get our hands on. It really is a bit insulting. Most of these members are looking glean information about the roots of our hobby. We are looking to preserve what is still left.

By the way, I was one of those guys who volunteered to help. I currently help edit Footprints - and I even do it for free. And yes, I am an OSR publisher. My offer still stands. The only caveat is that my donated work is actually used and not discarded. Editing by its very nature is offensive to the author. But a little bit of thick skin goes a long way.

Thanks again for your posts,
Bill Barsh


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:07 pm 
 

Egg of Coot wrote:Some of the complainers who were banned over at DF, K&K, etc. should maybe stop to consider that their behavior was the common denominator in all their troubles at the various sites and place blame accordingly.  But, let's face it, that'll never happen . . .

And who, pray tell, are you referring to?



  
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