L4 to be published by Dragonsfoot..
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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:05 am 
 

Badmike wrote:It is mindboggling that people who have acutally published items (like, actual items that can be bought!) are available and weren't brought in at some point to try and rescue this mess.
Is it mindboggling to buy into the notion that the number of such people who were capable of providing a professional level of such services, and would simultaneously be willing to offer them at absolutely no cost, could be starkly less than the actual number of professional publishers?   Remember, Len's requirement was that L4 be 100% free... and free doesn't always sit well with some people who may be used to making money at doing what they normally do for a living.   It is, I'm afraid, a rare thing to find somebody who genuinely has enough of a passion for their career that they are also willing to support independent free endeavors,  because it often represents a conflict of interest, commercially, and most people who have enough skill to actually do commercial work will usually choose to do so.

Now, I'm not saying that one necessarily has to be happy with mediocre when one isn't putting forth any capital, nor trying to apologize for the state that you seem to have found L4 in, but I am suggesting that it's not remotely inconceivable that a good deal of the professional services such as what you refer to were simply not viable for a free project.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:28 am 
 

Just my thoughts, having not read it comprehensively yet, but irrespective of free production, professional availability or 4+yrs in the making, it isn't hard to pick up spelling mistakes.
As this is free, I'm happy to have a copy but will edit the pdf for mistakes.
I may even edit the story line for my personal use, but I cant imagine it will take that long to correct spelling errors at least.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:53 am 
 

While I've only skimmed though bits of the module, nothing jumps out typo-wise. I see some missing hyphens, overuse of the word "that," erratic use of British quote marks in an otherwise American-English document, but nothing I wouldn't expect from an amateur production. Anyone care to provide a few egregious examples?

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:17 am 
 

sauromatian wrote:While I've only skimmed though bits of the module, nothing jumps out typo-wise. I see some missing hyphens, overuse of the word "that," erratic use of British quote marks in an otherwise American-English document, but nothing I wouldn't expect from an amateur production. Anyone care to provide a few egregious examples?


To be fair I didn't notice many of them until I did a more thorough read through.

I do remember one page alone had three glaring mistakes. I stopped caring at that point. After four years and countless read throughs (I assume) it's hard to believe these errors weren't found.

Just as bad as the errors is the structure of the module as a whole.  Sauro, after a thorough read through, I would be curious as to your opinion of the "flow" of the module and if it's clear in it's purpose and intentions, and whether it meets the standards of even other "amateur" publications.

I'd like to point out that had the choice been no product or this, I'll gladly take this.  I guess more than anything I'm upset by the lost opportunities here.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:20 am 
 

xyzchyx wrote:Is it mindboggling to buy into the notion that the number of such people who were capable of providing a professional level of such services, and would simultaneously be willing to offer them at absolutely no cost, could be starkly less than the actual number of professional publishers?   Remember, Len's requirement was that L4 be 100% free... and free doesn't always sit well with some people who may be used to making money at doing what they normally do for a living.   It is, I'm afraid, a rare thing to find somebody who genuinely has enough of a passion for their career that they are also willing to support independent free endeavors,  because it often represents a conflict of interest, commercially, and most people who have enough skill to actually do commercial work will usually choose to do so.

Now, I'm not saying that one necessarily has to be happy with mediocre when one isn't putting forth any capital, nor trying to apologize for the state that you seem to have found L4 in, but I am suggesting that it's not remotely inconceivable that a good deal of the professional services such as what you refer to were simply not viable for a free project.


I understand your point. But the people who had this project had four years to convince someone with a little publishing know-how to take a look at it. I know for a fact, having met quite a few of the self-publishers I named earlier, that some could have been cajoled into taking a look-see of the manuscript.  Maybe I'm wrong.  From what I'm hearing, more people were turned down than were actually solicited.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:30 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
Ian, you still haven't posted in thread I posted offering your services.  How come?  

You keep saying that you offered previously, however I've yet to see any evidence of it.  

I mean make your point right now and offer up your help in public and when they rebuff you publicly like you are so insistent on them doing, then you'll have all the high ground to bitch about it that you want.  

Until you do though, it's all just looking like a really bad cop-out.


Mike,

I have no intention of openning up a can of worms over on DF, and I can assure you I have offered my services on more than one occasion as both a mapmaker and a proofreader.

But, I will assure you this...

If someone PMs me or e-mails me a document they'd like me to proofread (PDF Preferred), I will do my utmost to provide an accurate and impartial service at no cost. E-mail [email protected].
xyzchyx wrote:Is it mindboggling to buy into the notion that the number of such people who were capable of providing a professional level of such services, and would simultaneously be willing to offer them at absolutely no cost, could be starkly less than the actual number of professional publishers?   Remember, Len's requirement was that L4 be 100% free... and free doesn't always sit well with some people who may be used to making money at doing what they normally do for a living.   It is, I'm afraid, a rare thing to find somebody who genuinely has enough of a passion for their career that they are also willing to support independent free endeavors,  because it often represents a conflict of interest, commercially, and most people who have enough skill to actually do commercial work will usually choose to do so.

Now, I'm not saying that one necessarily has to be happy with mediocre when one isn't putting forth any capital, nor trying to apologize for the state that you seem to have found L4 in, but I am suggesting that it's not remotely inconceivable that a good deal of the professional services such as what you refer to were simply not viable for a free project.

I understand your point, but a lot of the errors should have been picked up by even a cursory glance through the material. Also, at some point this project has to have run through a word processor, and even though word processors have rudimentary spell checkers, those should have flagged up a fair proportion of them.

As to your other point, some of us do not have the creative interest in writing and publishing their own modules, or the business nouse or inclination to self-publish, but we do have the ability to proofread and correct grammer, and are willing to work for free because we like to support those who do self-publish. We all have spare time to a varying degree, and I'm happy to use mine to contribute what I can.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:49 am 
 

bbarsh wrote:
Brian,
I hope you are not suggesting that people can't be critical because they did not volunteer to help with that project.
Because I volunteered and never got a response. And I do help edit Footprints (at least the last two issues and I am sure the next when it is ready). Now I am sure nobody knows that I do that over at DF because I am basically a nobody over there and they treat us nobodies like lepers for the most part.
My overall disappointment is not that the editing sucks and the layout is horrible and the story is at best choppy and at worst unworkable, but that this module has a lineage. The module is freaking L4 - a direct descendant of L1. It is as close to a real TSR module from the original source that we are ever likely to see. And this is the result?
How often is that kind of opportunity going to come along? Not very freaking often...
I don't have a problem with people being pissed, disappointed, thrilled or over-joyed. I am in none of those groups because I went straight from disappointed to completely uninterested.


Bill,
 I have not indicated at all that people can't have an opinion on the product.  If they think it sucks, it certainly their right to do so.

What I do have a problem with is the personal attacks on people questioning their intelligence and so forth for was done on a voulteer basis on a product that was free.  

If people actually paid for the product and felt ripped off by it, it would be one thing, but this is entirely different.  Again, it's a hell of a lot simpler to piss and moan about how people are dumb and everything sucks than it is to do something about it.  If people are so pissed about how it turned out, fine, do something about it by volunteering their time so that it doesn't turn out that way next time.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:01 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Mike,

I have no intention of openning up a can of worms over on DF, and I can assure you I have offered my services on more than one occasion as both a mapmaker and a proofreader.

But, I will assure you this...

If someone PMs me or e-mails me a document they'd like me to proofread (PDF Preferred), I will do my utmost to provide an accurate and impartial service at no cost. E-mail [email protected].


Why would offering your service up in public be stirring up a hornets nest?  There is absolutely nothing to lose.  Again, feel free to use the post I made with respect to this issue from above,  if you get a nasty response I'll apologize and deal with it there.  Here it is:

"GB, I really appreciate all the hard you guys did putting this long project together, however upon reviewing it, I believe that there were some editing/proofreading errors in it that may have been overlooked in the process.  I would love to be able to work on potentially removing some of these errors that I believe were overlooked and I will happily work at no charge as yourself and others have done through this long process, on the simple contingency that if I do do it, that you will give it a fair look as a viable corrected version for download once it's completed by me.  Let me know what you think"




To everyone else, Scott seems to have already cleared up the issue with Fid's avatar, but if it means anything I highly doubt that he'd put up a nasty avatar on purpose. He's usually one of the guys over on DF trying to prevent flame wars, so him coming on here with some sick shit of an avatar would be utterly surprising to me.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:41 am 
 

Hey guys, I know it was cleared up, but I posted 18 minutes after Fid's first post and I never saw the offending avatar.
And like Mike, I have no idea WTF this leeching stuff is all about.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:44 am 
 

FoulFoot wrote:Alrighty, back to work.  Or whatever we're doing here.  It was anti-leeching code, and I don't believe it was intentional.

As always, anyone who'd like their avatar stored locally on the server here (which I recommend simply because it serves the forum pages faster), just e-mail me it to me.

Foul


That is good enough answer for me.  I have already edited my posts from last night and again apologize to Fid for assuming that posting that avatar was done on purpose with malicious intent.  I almost threw up when I saw that.  That would have been one hell of a mess.  8O


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:59 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:
That is good enough answer for me.  I have already edited my posts from last night and again apologize to Fid for assuming that posting that avatar was done on purpose with malicious intent.  I almost threw up when I saw that.  That would have been one hell of a mess.  8O


Cool, could you send me a screen shot? I want to see what all the ruckus was about..

KIDDING  Dont you dare, any attachments by JG or King will be IMMEDIATELY deleted!!!!

What I do have a problem with is the personal attacks on people questioning their intelligence and so forth for was done on a voulunteer basis on a product that was free


I hope I didn't cross the line, but I have to seriously question anyone's ability to edit/proofread if this is the result.  I hope I haven't crossed the line into insults and I would urge anyone reviewing the material to stick to the facts and not speculation into personal movtives, etc.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:07 am 
 

I missed the avatar hoo-ha.  :?   Now I feel like I missed something.

Has anyone managed to get a copy the PDF file for L4 Devilspawn where they've corrected the map layout for Levels 3 and 4 of Castle Crest (Page 119).

Why haven't they amanded the PDF yet and uploaded it to their website? They've been talking about correcting that issue for days.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:23 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:
Never heard of anti-leeching code before.  If FoulFoot says it was unintentional then I am good with that explanation.  Apologies to Fid for making the assumption that it was intentional.


Quite common actually ... its a very effective way of protecting images from being directly linked from a site.  

Sad though that we automatically jump to the wrong conclusions and in the process bash somone new to Acaeum.  I hope he comes back ...  8)


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:28 am 
 

FoulFoot wrote:In this day and age, it's sort of silly.  In the old days, "bandwidth" was a concern, and an admin (rightfully) didn't want his bandwidth quota to be eaten up by folks linking to images and whatnot.  Today, where broadband is pretty much at a saturation point, it's not an issue.


Good explanation Foul .... I would add though that while in the US data / bandwidth has become very cheap here in Oz we are still paying through the nose and it can be an issue.  Thus alot of Oz sites are actually hosted on US servers.


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:29 am 
 

improvstone wrote:
Quite common actually ... its a very effective way of protecting images from being directly linked from a site.  

Sad though that we automatically jump to the wrong conclusions and in the process bash somone new to Acaeum.  I hope he comes back ...  8)


Well in our defense, if the avatar had been something "normal" I dont believe there would have been any "bashing".  If you had seen it and hadnt reacted in the same way, then you arent human.  It was the second most disgustingly horrifying thing I have ever seen.  You don't want to know what the first one is.  PDT_Armataz_01_32


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:40 am 
 

Kingofpain89 wrote:
Well in our defense, if the avatar had been something "normal" I dont believe there would have been any "bashing".  If you had seen it and hadnt reacted in the same way, then you arent human.  It was the second most disgustingly horrifying thing I have ever seen.  You don't want to know what the first one is.  


At least it wasn't the first :-)

Most of the anti-leeching images I have seen are pretty tame so I will take your word for it that it was pretty bad.  

Now I think it is time I went and read L4 to see what all the ruckus is about.   8)


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:44 am 
 

BadMike wrote:]I guess it just disappoints me because this is such a "historical" item in terms of who wrote it and the place the L-series has in gamers hearts.

I agree with most of Mike's sentiments in this thread, but I sense more than a bit of enthusiastic hyperbole here.  C'mon folks, we're talking about the L-series.  A little perspective is in order.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad Len wrote and was convinced to publish a sequel or three to L1.  The result has some problems, and so I'm glad it's free.  But like every other published module I've seen, it does have material that can be made into something fun/playable, and I thank the author for making it.  But that's it.

Consider that if every single "old school" thing that came out these days wasn't hyped so much in the first place, there wouldn't be room for so much disappointment.  Modules are made to be written, read, and played.  None of this stuff is going to win the Booker Prize.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:50 am 
 

Anyone got a copy of the file with the full map on P119 yet?


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:54 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Anyone got a copy of the file with the full map on P119 yet?


Do you mean the Castle Crest Tower Level 4? If so yes.

Although this is strange ... the page before is level 2 andthe page before that is ground.  Having not read themodule yet where is level 1 & 3?  Or am I missing something here?


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Post Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:57 am 
 

improvstone wrote:
Do you mean the Castle Crest Tower Level 4? If so yes.

Although this is strange ... the page before is level 2 andthe page before that is ground.  Having not read themodule yet where is level 1 & 3?  Or am I missing something here?

Yes. Level 3 and Level 4 are supposed to be on separate pages and the PDF has been printed with Levels 3 and 4 overlapping on the one page. The corrected file is available, but it's not available to DFer through the website. Via direct e-mail only as per the current DF thread. So why not just chage the file on DF so everyone can have it?

You've got the corrupted copy I have.


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