Most Objectionable TSR Art Ever Published!
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:42 am 
 

OK, I'm convinced. I'll try a druid.
How about a 3E one? A half-dune stalker/half dire gerbil druid/paladin/arcanist. With a +27 dancing holy vorpal flaming sword of allslaying, of course.

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:43 am 
 

:D

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:28 pm 
 

Achizar wrote:That can work in the short term in a typical party of PCs (killing orcs to prevent them from overrunning the countryside), but could be difficult long term (because inevitably a TN will have to prevent someone good from overreaching as well). All this speaks more to the difficulties of TN as a concept than it does the druid as a PC class, though, at least if you concede that druids can be NG/NE.


The Good/Evil axis of alignment always struck me as very subjective.  The paladin that slays a rampaging horde of orcs, did good when measured by human standards.  When measured by orcish standards, the paladin is evil because he slew a migratory tribe of orcs looking for new lands to settle and raise families.   The Druidic neutreal comes from realizing that the countryside is being overrun by both orcs and humans, and neither side has the best interest of the "countrside" itself at heart; they both want to exploit it.

Furthermore, consider Tree-beard from Lord of the Rings.  He's as close to a neutral character as possible.  "Which side are you on?" one of the Hobbits asks.  "I'm on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side" the ent replies.  The ents didn't care about the epic struggle between good and evil because it didn't involve them.  The ents couldn't have cared less if the orcs killed every last man, elf, and hobbit; they only sacked Isengard because the orcs were destroying the forest.

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 12:58 pm 
 

NetRodent wrote:
Achizar wrote:That can work in the short term in a typical party of PCs (killing orcs to prevent them from overrunning the countryside), but could be difficult long term (because inevitably a TN will have to prevent someone good from overreaching as well). All this speaks more to the difficulties of TN as a concept than it does the druid as a PC class, though, at least if you concede that druids can be NG/NE.


The Good/Evil axis of alignment always struck me as very subjective. The paladin that slays a rampaging horde of orcs, did good when measured by human standards. When measured by orcish standards, the paladin is evil because he slew a migratory tribe of orcs looking for new lands to settle and raise families.  The Druidic neutreal comes from realizing that the countryside is being overrun by both orcs and humans, and neither side has the best interest of the "countrside" itself at heart; they both want to exploit it.

Furthermore, consider Tree-beard from Lord of the Rings. He's as close to a neutral character as possible. "Which side are you on?" one of the Hobbits asks. "I'm on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side" the ent replies. The ents didn't care about the epic struggle between good and evil because it didn't involve them. The ents couldn't have cared less if the orcs killed every last man, elf, and hobbit; they only sacked Isengard because the orcs were destroying the forest.


Do not forget the Ents also slaughtered all of the Uruk-hai and baddies when they ran from helms deep.  Orcs must make good fertilizer.

J


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:04 pm 
 

Well, they had a long-standing feud with orcs anyways, so killing them was a personal thing.
Excellent point, the Ents are probably the closest thing to Neutral possible.

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:17 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Well, they had a long-standing feud with orcs anyways, so killing them was a personal thing.
Excellent point, the Ents are probably the closest thing to Neutral possible.

I'm going for a half-ent/half-green slime druid!  :lol:

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:01 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:
Deadlord36 wrote:Well, they had a long-standing feud with orcs anyways, so killing them was a personal thing.
Excellent point, the Ents are probably the closest thing to Neutral possible.

I'm going for a half-ent/half-green slime druid! :lol:


so what would you be if you were a half-giant/half halfling? wouldnt you just be a human ? :D

i tell you, frank cracks me up.....he will never leave that 3E alone :D



  

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:11 pm 
 

Achizar wrote:That can work in the short term in a typical party of PCs (killing orcs to prevent them from overrunning the countryside), but could be difficult long term (because inevitably a TN will have to prevent someone good from overreaching as well). All this speaks more to the difficulties of TN as a concept than it does the druid as a PC class, though, at least if you concede that druids can be NG/NE.


The Good/Evil axis of alignment always struck me as very subjective. The paladin that slays a rampaging horde of orcs, did good when measured by human standards. When measured by orcish standards, the paladin is evil because he slew a migratory tribe of orcs looking for new lands to settle and raise families.  The Druidic neutreal comes from realizing that the countryside is being overrun by both orcs and humans, and neither side has the best interest of the "countrside" itself at heart; they both want to exploit it.


    In my campaign, all the "good/evil" variety of spells were changed. "Protection From Evil/Good" became "Protection From Enemies"  IMO this more required less machinations, as anyone attacking you would be subject to the spell (aka an enemy).  
  Any discussion of good vs evil must have a starting point. Through years of gaming, myself and my players actually came up with a well thought out encompasing explanation, which of course I don't have handy :?  Basically, depriving innocents of life, liberty and the pursuit of their own well being was seen as evil.  A Paladin may be "evil" in the orcs eyes, but neither does he spend his spare time torturing animals, burning human settlements for food, raping women, killing babies, etc.  Im my campaign world the orcs wouldn't consider a paladin "evil".  They would consider themselves evil without explanation or excuse, reveling in their depravity.  They would wear "evil" like a badge of pride.

Furthermore, consider Tree-beard from Lord of the Rings. He's as close to a neutral character as possible. "Which side are you on?" one of the Hobbits asks. "I'm on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side" the ent replies. The ents didn't care about the epic struggle between good and evil because it didn't involve them. The ents couldn't have cared less if the orcs killed every last man, elf, and hobbit; they only sacked Isengard because the orcs were destroying the forest.


Of course, this is one reason playing a true neutral druid is such a tough deed.  Such a PC would not be welcome in any party, no one wants to tote along a dude whose loyalties are firmly with himself and of course the little animals of the forest and all the trees.  Hell, you can't even entice the guy with gold and silver like a good mercenary, I wouldn't want any part of a guy like that. Funny thing is, even though the Ents were neutral, killing the orcs was a "good" act relatively....!

Mike B.

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:11 pm 
 

Half giant/half halfling.....................
Human.

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 5:07 pm 
 

When I played D&D, we were too young to appreciate any sort of philosophical discourse. A druid had 1d8 for hit points and a lousy selection of weapons and armor. You got a 2nd level spell at 2nd level! I made a druid so that I could cast Animal Friendship on some giant spiders. I wanted them to beat the $&@? out of my stupid brothers stupid trained war dogs. They didn't.

After that it was all about casting Shillelagh on my staff and hoping I could beat the $*%! out of whatever was in front of me before the time limit expired on one of the lamest spells ever. That was our D&D philosophy:

Paladin- beat the &%@? out of everything with a holy sword.
Druid- beat the @#$% out of things with your lame staff. Pets!
Ranger- beat the @#$% out of things with two weapons. 2d8 hp!
etc.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:35 pm 
 

NetRodent wrote:
Achizar wrote:That can work in the short term in a typical party of PCs (killing orcs to prevent them from overrunning the countryside), but could be difficult long term (because inevitably a TN will have to prevent someone good from overreaching as well). All this speaks more to the difficulties of TN as a concept than it does the druid as a PC class, though, at least if you concede that druids can be NG/NE.


The Good/Evil axis of alignment always struck me as very subjective. The paladin that slays a rampaging horde of orcs, did good when measured by human standards. When measured by orcish standards, the paladin is evil because he slew a migratory tribe of orcs looking for new lands to settle and raise families.  The Druidic neutreal comes from realizing that the countryside is being overrun by both orcs and humans, and neither side has the best interest of the "countrside" itself at heart; they both want to exploit it.

Furthermore, consider Tree-beard from Lord of the Rings. He's as close to a neutral character as possible. "Which side are you on?" one of the Hobbits asks. "I'm on nobodies side, because nobody is on my side" the ent replies. The ents didn't care about the epic struggle between good and evil because it didn't involve them. The ents couldn't have cared less if the orcs killed every last man, elf, and hobbit; they only sacked Isengard because the orcs were destroying the forest.


Isengard should have told the Ents they knew the location of the Ent-Wives. Saruman would have had them marching all across Middle Earth to do battle. Could have had them sack both Rohan and Gondor and then "march on Mordor" turning on them at the last second, planned with Sauron, and then hope they had wrecked enough havoc on Mordor to beat them as well.

I am not so sure they were "neutral" in terms of balance. They were more Switzerland neutral, not wanting to get involved. Much more akin to the elves. If you are immortal or live for 10s of thousands of years the affairs of mortals would seem to not matter unless they were either infringing on your liveleyhood/safety or you just took pity on them.


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:48 am 
 

Hello everyone!

I've just had a peek at the cover of AC2 in another part of this website, especially the shambling mound...

[attempting to do George Takei's voice]  Oh MY.....   :oops:

BTW, on a similar note, has anyone looked at the troll's proboscis on the back of the mono release of D1???

Cheers,
JohnH
aka
Wandering Monster

  
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