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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:16 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:yeah that was always something i tended to have problems getting my head around on a constant basis.

i could accept neutrality on the basis that you extract yourself from everything and do your own thing and not be involved in any way with one or the other. that kinda works in my head.

but then most of my characters were always chaotic neutral. basically very instinctive and pretty much off the cuff lunacy. this used to wind up the whole party loads, but it was worth every penny.

specially trying to creep up on a black dragon, and there is me standing there throwing stones at it :D
(just about every player in the room at that time threw a book at me)

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Druids in all my campaigns are NG or NE...no one, I'm sorry, could ever be TRUE neutral without eventually going bonkers at some point in their lives "Did I take too many pine cones from the forest today for my stew?  If I eat thisrabbit, does the balance of the woods tip to one side or another? Should I rescue that small child from the jaws of the hungry wolf, who is only feeding his poor wolf cub family, but then the human family will be upset.....?"  Enough!  Dimbulb the 1st level druid should never have to wrestle through existential questions of existance that a Tibetian Zen Master could only begin to fathom.  Also, true neutral IMO means you can never go adventuring....what party in their right mind harbors a guy who any moment might yell "Run away, grizzly bear, the party wants to take your fur!"  
    In my campaign, NG druids work for the general good of all humans in harmony with the forest, in general putting the rights of living thinking reasoning beings above those of ravening, wasteful and unintelligent monsters, animals or humans, unless such thinking beings are wantonly destroying the flora or fauna.  NE druids might be perfectly ok guys, but they respect the rights of animals or plants over that of us pesky humans in all circumstances, no matter what.  So Druid #2 might sit and watch you get eaten by a python because that's the "circle of life, my friend" and not violate his ethos, while Druid #1 would feel compelled to rescue you (hopefully by not killing the snake) in the hopes of some "greater good" arising from allowing a thinking being to live.  It sure solved a lot of dilemmas we had when trying to play the old strict Neutral type druids.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:13 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
killjoy32 wrote:yeah that was always something i tended to have problems getting my head around on a constant basis.

i could accept neutrality on the basis that you extract yourself from everything and do your own thing and not be involved in any way with one or the other. that kinda works in my head.

but then most of my characters were always chaotic neutral. basically very instinctive and pretty much off the cuff lunacy. this used to wind up the whole party loads, but it was worth every penny.

specially trying to creep up on a black dragon, and there is me standing there throwing stones at it :D
(just about every player in the room at that time threw a book at me)

Al


Druids in all my campaigns are NG or NE...no one, I'm sorry, could ever be TRUE neutral without eventually going bonkers at some point in their lives "Did I take too many pine cones from the forest today for my stew? If I eat thisrabbit, does the balance of the woods tip to one side or another? Should I rescue that small child from the jaws of the hungry wolf, who is only feeding his poor wolf cub family, but then the human family will be upset.....?" Enough! Dimbulb the 1st level druid should never have to wrestle through existential questions of existance that a Tibetian Zen Master could only begin to fathom. Also, true neutral IMO means you can never go adventuring....what party in their right mind harbors a guy who any moment might yell "Run away, grizzly bear, the party wants to take your fur!"
  In my campaign, NG druids work for the general good of all humans in harmony with the forest, in general putting the rights of living thinking reasoning beings above those of ravening, wasteful and unintelligent monsters, animals or humans, unless such thinking beings are wantonly destroying the flora or fauna. NE druids might be perfectly ok guys, but they respect the rights of animals or plants over that of us pesky humans in all circumstances, no matter what. So Druid #2 might sit and watch you get eaten by a python because that's the "circle of life, my friend" and not violate his ethos, while Druid #1 would feel compelled to rescue you (hopefully by not killing the snake) in the hopes of some "greater good" arising from allowing a thinking being to live. It sure solved a lot of dilemmas we had when trying to play the old strict Neutral type druids.

Mike B.


This is very similar to how they worked in my campaigns. I did though have true Neutrals though the balance they tried to maintain was the order brought forth by the Light and Dark Druids. The Druids were actually the most powerful organization in my campaigns. It was rare I would let any players play one as I preferred to keep them as NPCs.

My campaign had the Good Druids being the friendly environmental types who wanted to protect the environment but if civilization was really going to suffer they would agree to what was for good of civilization (within reason). The Dark Druids were the radical environmental types. They were anti-civilization and would often go out of their way to disrupt things they saw an encroachment on their "wilds".


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:14 pm 
 

Marlith wrote:
This is very similar to how they worked in my campaigns. I did though have true Neutrals though the balance they tried to maintain was the order brought forth by the Light and Dark Druids. The Druids were actually the most powerful organization in my campaigns. It was rare I would let any players play one as I preferred to keep them as NPCs.

My campaign had the Good Druids being the friendly environmental types who wanted to protect the environment but if civilization was really going to suffer they would agree to what was for good of civilization (within reason). The Dark Druids were the radical environmental types. They were anti-civilization and would often go out of their way to disrupt things they saw an encroachment on their "wilds".


Bingo!  Exactly the same as in my campaigns.  Basically the evil Druids are the "Animals first, Plants second, People way down the list" types.  Evil Druids are some nasty foes, They are fun to play, imagine a beyond rational, radical PETA/Earth First type backed up by powerful magic and a menagerie of bears, wolves, tigers, eagles, etc. and you have a foe that might make you go AROUND that forest rather than right through even if you are in a hurry...

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:24 pm 
 

True Neutral:

1.  Too stupid to decide anything.

2.  Too selfish to care about anything.

3.  Too arrogant to believe in anything.

No wonder I never liked playing druids  :lol:

Seriously, I think more people screw up playing druids that they do overplaying paladins.
"Don't start that campfire, you might unbalance the universe by cutting up that dead wood!"


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:39 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Druids in all my campaigns are NG or NE...no one, I'm sorry, could ever be TRUE neutral without eventually going bonkers at some point in their lives... Enough! Dimbulb the 1st level druid should never have to wrestle through existential questions of existance that a Tibetian Zen Master could only begin to fathom. Also, true neutral IMO means you can never go adventuring....what party in their right mind harbors a guy who any moment might yell "Run away, grizzly bear, the party wants to take your fur!"

Marlith wrote:My campaign had the Good Druids being the friendly environmental types who wanted to protect the environment but if civilization was really going to suffer they would agree to what was for good of civilization (within reason). The Dark Druids were the radical environmental types. They were anti-civilization and would often go out of their way to disrupt things they saw an encroachment on their "wilds".

:D

Excellent stuff, y'both!

Sad to say never managed to adopt such an interesting take on the class, here: PC druids (such as there were) tended to appear more like refugees from small, besieged Gaulish villages...

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:48 pm 
 

my druids (as NPC's, nobody ever played one), used to live out in the remote wilds and i used to use them for info in relation to quests etc or help in finding places....i used to use them as sorta going a little on the mad side etc

worked for me really.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:17 pm 
 

I once had a small community druids in my campaign who lived on the edge of a dangerous forest.  The PC's would stop there to spend the night before going in and they would pass back through on their way out.

   The head druid would always make some sort of lofty prediction about their coming adventure, such as:  "One of you shall not return from the forest," or "One of you shall be changed."

   These predictions had an aggravating and ironic way of turning out to be true.

   Finally, one evil player destroyed the druid village by flying over it at night and polymorphing small animals into elephants as they fell onto the huts below...splat!  Very amusing.

   Mostly I do not like druids because the earth-moron game rationale makes for so many dumb and time consuming spells and unbalanced rules such as the ability to stay a bird all day.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 6:04 pm 
 

Besides, female druids don't shave their armpits, and they inevitably have an earth-mama muff which makes it impossible to wear the +5 chainmail bikini bottom.
Other than the basic classes, almost any exotic class is easily abused. They used to be very rare in my campaigns. It's a lot easier now using a classless system. If someone wants to defend Bambi, they can. If they want to eat him, they can.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:29 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:"Balance" is another fantasy gaming concept that I find amusing.

 I could accept the Balance between Chaos and Law of Michael Moocock's writings. That works.

  But a "Balance" between Good and Evil makes me laugh:

  "I need some evil to balance all the good I have done. What do you suggest?"

  There is too much good? We need some evil?:


"El, you really must try this because it's puerco pibil. It's a slow-roasted pork, nothing fancy. It just happens to be my favorite, and I order it with a tequila and lime in every dive I go to in this country. And honestly, that is the best it's ever been anywhere. In fact, it's too good. It's so good that when I'm finished, I'll pay my check, walk straight into the kitchen and shoot the cook. Because that's what I do. I restore the balance to this country. And that is what I would like from you right now. Help keep the balance by pulling the trigger. "

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:26 pm 
 

I personally never understood the interpretation that the neutrality balance has to have such granularity that each individual act has to be balanced.  That indeed is just silly.

I always interpreted it as more of a Daoist big picture concept of balance, or better yet, a position above/beyond moral classifications & judgments, as in Nature itself.  I.e., in nature nothing judges whether a lion eating an antelope is good or evil, or whether a beaver cutting down a tree is good/evil.  Nature just happens, and is self-regulating through maintenance of balances.  (e.g., get too many prey species, and predator species flourish...until there are are too many predators, and they die down a bit.  Anything that throws off that self-regulating mechanism is bad, but there's no moral component to it.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:53 pm 
 

as i said, i used to just tread neutral characters as simply that. they stayed neutral and just didnt get involved in any struggles involving either of the other factions.

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:12 pm 
 

"That's funny. She doesn't look Druish."

I have never had a player be a Druid, nor have I ever had a player wish to play a Druid. As for making Druids one with Mother Earth, a few of my players have done this. :twisted:

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:32 pm 
 

DungeonDelver wrote:"El, you really must try this because it's puerco pibil. It's a slow-roasted pork, nothing fancy. It just happens to be my favorite, and I order it with a tequila and lime in every dive I go to in this country. And honestly, that is the best it's ever been anywhere. In fact, it's too good. It's so good that when I'm finished, I'll pay my check, walk straight into the kitchen and shoot the cook. Because that's what I do. I restore the balance to this country. And that is what I would like from you right now. Help keep the balance by pulling the trigger. "

:twisted:


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:12 am 
 

Druids, imho, are a very underestimated class. I played one for two years (also evidenced by my ebay name) and was the first in my group to ever try one. She became reasonably high level and the shapeshifting abilities saved our asses so many times. In fact, once when being swallowed by something, our DM let me roll initiative against the thing swallowing... I won, and was able to shapeshift into a whale in the creature's throat. It was quite an explosion. :D

Plus, Earth Maw (in the Druid's Handbook), is a kickass spell. And should a party need a mouse to sneak in somewhere small, or a dolphin or whale to swim them to safety from a sunken ship, or an eagle to scout ahead... druids are very, very useful. (Plus they heal from shapeshifting, so that's good for them, too.)

We always allowed any neutral alignment to play a druid for the same reasons stated in above posts. It just seems to make sense that there would be a "good" type druid that would care for both nature and mankind, and the "evil" type that would be totally anti-establishment. Kind of like... what was it... the shadow druids in Baldur's Gate?

Mm... at any rate, I never took into consideration that my druidess wouldn't have shaved her armpits... great mental image. :}


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 1:45 am 
 

And the muff. Don't forget the muff.

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 2:08 am 
 

8O My druidess much prefers it to be called "pure, un-pruned foliage", thanks. :lol:

Edit: Watch the plant growth spells, in that case.


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 3:36 am 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:And the muff. Don't forget the muff.


lol frank you crack me up :D you have such a way with words :)



  

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 4:37 am 
 

Achizar wrote:I personally never understood the interpretation that the neutrality balance has to have such granularity that each individual act has to be balanced. That indeed is just silly.

I always interpreted it as more of a Daoist big picture concept of balance, or better yet, a position above/beyond moral classifications & judgments, as in Nature itself. I.e., in nature nothing judges whether a lion eating an antelope is good or evil, or whether a beaver cutting down a tree is good/evil. Nature just happens, and is self-regulating through maintenance of balances. (e.g., get too many prey species, and predator species flourish...until there are are too many predators, and they die down a bit. Anything that throws off that self-regulating mechanism is bad, but there's no moral component to it.


    The druid as presented is not a medieval point of view.  It is much closer to a modern, secular whatever-ism.  The game druid does not even match the historical druid.  The concept of a defender of nature is entirely modern.  Medieval Europeans (the people of 90% of fantasy game worlds) would not have even been able to understand the concept...would have returned only blank and puzzled stares even if you explained it to them.    8O

    The concept of "no moral component" is alien to heroic fantasy role-playing.  Good and evil are starkly contrasted.  The idea of remaining neutral in such a clash is incomprehensible.  Even when the characters and the conflicts take on modern tones (such as the Elric novels), even the evil guys know they are evil.   :evil:

   So, the druids on the sidelines, yawning enormously, are not one of the better components of the game.   :roll:

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