The Garbage that was...
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 51, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8241
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Mar 05, 2022
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:37 am 
 

grodog wrote:
bbarsh wrote:So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?




Despite some of the initial rail-roading in it, I'm very fond of the Greyhawk 98 module "Return of the Eight" by Roger E. Moore. I also liked the Star Cairns, though Doomgrinder and the Crypt of Lyzendrad the Mad (sp?) were OK at best. I got the Falcon triology last year sometime, and it's relatively poor as well. Vecna Lives is a relatively poor adventure, but makes for some interesting reading to expand on Vecna's background.



I don't know many 2e modules, since I also quit D&D with the advent of 2e (or at least never "upgraded"). Some of the Lankhmar modules were good, but I think the ones I'm thinking of were also 1e ;)




only four i really looked at, tho i have a fair few, are doomgrinder, and i think its howl from the north, Iuz the Evil and The Marklands.



doomgrinder i thought looked fab when you first start looking at it, but the interest in the module faded the more i read it - shame.



howl from the north, looked quite interesting to me, simply due to the fact that it gave me an excuse to lead characters into the extreme north with some decent purpose and it leads to some cool roleplaying in the snow and ice etc. material in that mod was not bad. not the best, but playable.



Iuz and Marklands, i really liked. really expanded some ideas i had already and i was able to use material from the both of them as well as stuff that was related in the module too, to turn out some really cool adventures for the group. two of the better 2E greyhawk items imo.



Al


Are we nearly there yet?

  


Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5726
Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022
Location: Wichita, KS, USA

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:56 am 
 

Badmike wrote:I'm going to be honest and say there is a lot of 1st edition stuff I really don't like, and that includes a lot of the classics. Now I know we are playing a fantasy game, but the quickest way to lose myself and my group in the old school days was trying to be funny (EX1 and EX2, hated them)




We liked EX1/2 as bizarre little realms, but I agree, if you're looking for some sort of consistency of tone in the campaign, I think they can definitely be a distraction (which was, in part, the point).  (Semi-relatedly, I finally read Don Turnbull's D&D version of Alice in WD via Ian's WD archive, and I definitely like Gygax's better).  



or creating a totally illogical deathtrap with "clues" and "riddles" and goofy traps and treasures and illogical reasons for the monsters to be waiting behind every door (C2 and S2 were much despised at my gaming table and in the circle of gamers I hung around with also).




Both among my least favorite 1e modules.  I like S2 for the backstory, the Erol Otus map, and the artwork (in particular the halfling-polymorphed ogre mage) but that's about it.  Some of the encounters were cool (the gorge, for example), but otherwise it was pretty lame.  C2 was much worse, with little redeeming value to it at all (although some of the illos from the WinterCon version that didn't make the C2 verison are cool).



Ed Greenwood really sucks as a fiction writer, but his adventues and supplements are generally of pretty high quality. He has the same ability as Gary (he probably got it from reading Gary's stuff) to make a small encounter, single room, or monstrous opponent quite interesting. This adventure is pretty hard to find so it's overlooked a lot, but I would recommend it as a good low level crawl.




Good to know, I'm a fan of Greenwood's work from his Dragon articles, and like the FR stuff written by him too.  I'll add that to my wish list :D



WGR6 City of Skulls---I really thought this was a challenge for high level Greyhawk characters.




I agree, this and Vecna Lives were the only 2e GH modules I bought upon release back-in-the-day.  CoS is quite good, and I like the reputation system that Sargent created in it, too.



Ruins of Undermountain-----Dathon is pulling down his pants to whiz all over this pick, but I loved the entire thing...maybe the concept isa bit goofy, but come on, didn't every single one of us really, really want a gigantic multilevel dungeon that had an entire book of fleshed out encounters when we first started out?  




But of course!  I used many parts of this (and the various articles by Greenwood in Dragon) in my version of Castle Greyhawk, details from which you can take a gander at on my site:  http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog.html



If this had come out in 1979 and was the exact same adventure word for word except set under Greyhawk not Waterdeep, I think this might be considered the greatest gaming product of all time.




Definitely possible!


Allan Grohe ([email protected])
Greyhawk, grodog Style

Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing
https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/

 WWW  


Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5726
Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022
Location: Wichita, KS, USA

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:02 am 
 

Badmike wrote:Also another interesting 2nd ed campaign was the Night Below adventure. Not so much the first (above ground) book, but once the underdark is reached, especially the Kuo Toan city (which should be an absolute epic battle), some pretty good adventuring here and the really great thing, no Drow! At all! The Kuo Toans, Aboleth and Derro make pretty good foes with unusual and hard to counter powers, and the massively deadly finale should be epic.




I haven't delved deeply into this yet, but have also heard good things about it from GH folks.



Something I just thought of, maybe there were so many lame 2nd ed modules because all the really great potential module writers were doing their thing in Dungeon magazine instead of writing modules? There were some adventures published in this zine, way, way better than anything ever out in module form.




Also a good point:  Dungeon drained the possible pool of submissions a lot faster than Dragon did, which released modules about once a year or so starting in the 30s or so.


Allan Grohe ([email protected])
Greyhawk, grodog Style

Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing
https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/

 WWW  


Active Collector

Posts: 61
Joined: Nov 07, 2005
Last Visit: May 09, 2022

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:24 am 
 

I agree that Dragonlance did serious and maybe permanent damage to the kind of D&D I liked to play being supported. However, my understanding is that it was a big seller. I wonder if lots of people bought it and then stopped playing? Or was there still a big fanbase that went along with the change in playstyle? Where are those people today, if so?



Turning on art snob mode for a moment:



The quality of line and realism is better with most of the 2e visual artists, with the partial exception of Trampier. However, like Boris Vallejo, most of the 2e artists don't really do anything intelligent with their picturing; they don't have style. (Vallejo has very little personal style.)



Otus is essentially a cartoonist, but he has a unique individual style. In  that sense, he's a greater visual artist than many with better line and powers of representation that followed him. Off hand, in fact, I'm inclined to say that Otus is the only real visual artist that's ever been associated with D&D. (Don't confuse this with a statement about favorites: that Sutherland cover to the Holmes boxed set is my favorite piece of D&D art ever, and it invites you into the game perfectly, but it doesn't display the kind of artistic intelligence I'm talking about.)



Looking about more broadly the only really great fantasy artist I can think of is Frank Frazetta, and it's important to remember that his work is essentially porn. But it's thoughtful porn, the record of a human intelligence engaged with its visual subject, and for that reason it rises above the rest of the genre.

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 4752
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
Last Visit: Jun 25, 2022
Location: Garland, TX

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:08 am 
 

grodog wrote:
bbarsh wrote:So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?




Despite some of the initial rail-roading in it, I'm very fond of the Greyhawk 98 module "Return of the Eight" by Roger E. Moore. I also liked the Star Cairns, though Doomgrinder and the Crypt of Lyzendrad the Mad (sp?) were OK at best. I got the Falcon triology last year sometime, and it's relatively poor as well. Vecna Lives is a relatively poor adventure, but makes for some interesting reading to expand on Vecna's background.




I liked Vecna Lives! for that reason as well but as said above it isnt much of an adventure.  I also liked Return of the Eight and City of Skulls.



Did anyone besides me like Dead Gods and Return to the Tomb of Horrors?  Both were epic in scope and had two of the coolest bad guys ever to rear their ugly heads in Orcus and Acererak.  I never played through For Duty and Diety but read it and liked the whole idea of it.  It also had Graz'zt as the main meanie IIRC, who is one of my favorite Abyssal lords.  :twisted:

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5669
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Sep 29, 2022
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:20 am 
 

One of my favorites was always Dark Clouds Gather. And of course Bone Hill. Both excellent adventures.

I am still a huge fan of JG. The descriptions are fairly raw, and leave the details up to the GM. The reason why I prefer this is because it doesn't put any preconceived notions in the GM's head.


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8241
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Mar 05, 2022
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:23 am 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:I am still a huge fan of JG. The descriptions are fairly raw, and leave the details up to the GM. The reason why I prefer this is because it doesn't put any preconceived notions in the GM's head.




frank, exactly the reason i like JG so much. you can pretty much guarantee, due to it being written and presented this way, there is never the same game, due to each DM looking at something in their own way.



mind you, it can also make a game really shit too, if the DM isnt that good either.



i have some friends coming over the end of january, for a game. i was going to run R1 or R2, but am thinking Tegel Manor now actually.



mind you, for some reason, C1 comes to mind too....



depends on the time scale i have nearer the time.


Are we nearly there yet?

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6789
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022
Location: UK

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:29 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:And the marching band of the good old days starts again :roll:



J


Aaargh! Heritic. Burn the witch. Burn the witch! :D


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chocolate buttons.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 27, 2003
Last Visit: Aug 23, 2017
Location: Atop a heap of slain orcs

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:45 am 
 

My two cents...my opinion is almost any module in any edition can kick butt or suck ass, depending on how the DM does his job. I am very attached to 1st ed, hence my presence on this forum, but I have played some 2nd ed that was as much fun, due to an outstanding DM. Conversely, I have played some terrible 1st ed that made me want to throw a knife at my dog, I was so furious at how bad it was I basically pissed myself to sleep....Overall I do not find 2nd ed readable, let alone playable, but I love the Monstrous Arcana supplements (not the mods- they suck big flabby elephant d*ck...). As far as Dragonlance goes...it was really quite a self contradictory experience- a role playing game that took away the players' imaginative options...kind of like playing tea party with your kid sister's dolls, but with less combat.....blecch.....and what was with all the frigging hair feathers???

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3597
Joined: Dec 20, 2003
Last Visit: Sep 26, 2022
Location: Canada

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:47 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:And the marching band of the good old days starts again :roll:



J


Aaargh! Heritic. Burn the witch. Burn the witch! :D




Long live feats, skills and prestige classes HA HAHAHAH HAAHHHH :wink:



J


Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7972
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:49 am 
 

KingOfPain wrote:
grodog wrote:
bbarsh wrote:So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?




Despite some of the initial rail-roading in it, I'm very fond of the Greyhawk 98 module "Return of the Eight" by Roger E. Moore. I also liked the Star Cairns, though Doomgrinder and the Crypt of Lyzendrad the Mad (sp?) were OK at best. I got the Falcon triology last year sometime, and it's relatively poor as well. Vecna Lives is a relatively poor adventure, but makes for some interesting reading to expand on Vecna's background.




I liked Vecna Lives! for that reason as well but as said above it isnt much of an adventure. I also liked Return of the Eight and City of Skulls.



Did anyone besides me like Dead Gods and Return to the Tomb of Horrors? Both were epic in scope and had two of the coolest bad guys ever to rear their ugly heads in Orcus and Acererak. I never played through For Duty and Diety but read it and liked the whole idea of it. It also had Graz'zt as the main meanie IIRC, who is one of my favorite Abyssal lords. :twisted:




I agree Moore did a good job on Return of the Eight.  He was faced with the task of both writing an intro into the "new" Greyhawk setting, but having to please the fanatical Greyhawk fans, and I think he struck a nice balance..

  I'm not a big fan of Planescape stuff, I do have Dead Gods because of the discussion of the Fane of Lolth. I think Return to the Tomb of Horrors is pretty darn good, forgot about that one. I'm thinking that might be a TPK waiting to happen, though, I haven't even gotten a party of adventurers high enough level to attempt it, so in that case it might be ripe for conversion to 3rd ed.  Some really deadly monsters and situations in that one, but not totally illogical or ridiculous.



I guess also everyone has different standards when they look at a module, and 2nd ed doesn't meet these standards for me and many others in most cases.  I always look for an interesting locale, setting or map; a certain internal logic that is hard to explain in words, but you just have a "feel" for it when you read over the module; good combat situations with monsters as well as the opportunity for thinking out problems or roleplaying those same encounters; and versatility in shape (i.e. can I easily fit it into my style of Dming and campaign with not that much work).   For example, I must have ran D1 something like half a dozen times in the last 25 years. Sure, it really all boils down to a battle royale between the adventurers and the hordes of trolls, bugbears, trogs and Drow, but the many different strategies to get to that point show how versatile and interesting the adventure really is.  I've had a party storm in and take on everything in one huge battle; I've had a party disguise themselves as a drow merchant train and make it out the back with minimal combat; I've had a party infiltrate the caverns using spells and magical items and attack the monters by surprise; I've had a party completely overwhelmed, half were captured while the other half had to retreat into the underdark with angry drow and monsters on their tails (only to have to sneak back later and rescue their friends).  So this kind of adventure gets really top marks in my book.

   Now, not to be elitist, but there are some 1st edition modules that  I really think stifle this sort of creativity.  I mentioned C2 and S2 earlier, these are essentially tournament style "Treasure in Room A, find and remove traps and defeat Monster A and get treasure; Treasure in Room B, find and remove traps and defeat Monster B and get treasure, etc".  Not that there isn't the ocassional place for this sort of crawl, but there seem to be way too many of these type in the 1st edition canon.  By the time I finished trying to work logic into the illogical procediings (Why is a fully stocked monster hotel sitting in the middle of nowhere with valuable treasures? Why don't the monsters leave, grabbing the treasures on the way and selling them to finace their new castle or whatever? And what the hell do they eat in a dungeon where they can't even get past the traps themselves to head to the local 7-11 for a snack?)  I think the 2nd edition concept was a backlash to a lot of this mindset, but unfortunately they went a bit too far. Not every adventure has to be an epic trilogy where the characters are trundled along from Point a to Point b to Point c while the DM reads the prearranged script, ugh.

    2nd edition modules really don't lend themselves to this sort of adventuring anyway.  As mentioned before, most are very linear in plot, and don't take into account alternate actions, directions, solutions, or anything.  If you would glance at the modules I really like and the ones I've DMed again and again, you would see this aversion to plot handcuffs and internatl illogic.  I mean, yeh you have to get the characters to go into a dungeon to adventure but the motivation should arise naturally out of characters actions and behaviors instead of an artificial constraint "You wake up one morning in the local jail with a headache, for your release the major has decided that you and your fellows must find the Star of Caliph in the Dungeon of Doom...) Likewise it's a fantasy game so sometimes all the answers aren't going to be there, but good lord it took years for a castle to finally have toilet holes (I beleive this was L2) and 15 years for a dungeon to have a waste disposal system that while magical actually made sense (Ruins of Undermountain).  Up until then I guess everyone just took a crap in the hallway or took a whiz in the flowerpots, who knows.  The toilets were in the same room as the non-existent food supply for the group of ten Ogres way in the back room past the blade barrier trap...

   Well, enough rambling, as you can see this is a subject I am passionate about.  While agreeing that the typical 2nd ed module didn't live up to 1st ed standards, I also have to say a lot of it is looking through the glasses of nostalgia.  That, and Dungeon magazine was poaching away all the best adventures for publication in their mag instead of producing them as an actual adventure.

   You know, I actually completely forgot about the Monstrous Arcana series, there were three trilogies dealing with Beholders, Sahaughin and Mind Flayers.  I never read the Mind Flayer one, I didn't like the Beholder one, but the Sea Devil trilogy I seem to remember was pretty darn good.  Interesting locale and nasty monsters (plus it's always good to make your party get into an unfamiliar enviornment like underwater so that the monsters and the DM have the advantage). Anyone else run these?



Mike B.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 27, 2003
Last Visit: Aug 23, 2017
Location: Atop a heap of slain orcs

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:57 am 
 

I just assumed everybody crapped in the hallway.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6789
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022
Location: UK

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:04 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:Long live feats, skills and prestige classes HA HAHAHAH HAAHHHH :wink:



J


I'm not looking! I didn't see that. Ooh. It burns the eyes!


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chocolate buttons.

 WWW  


Active Collector

Posts: 61
Joined: Nov 07, 2005
Last Visit: May 09, 2022

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:07 pm 
 

White Plume Mountain is an interesting test case.



People who don't care about realism and plausibility so much consider it one of the greatest modules of all time. People who do rate it pretty low, lower than most other 1e modules.



I think a person's opinion about S2 tells you a lot about their gaming philosophy, actually.


Looking for your old-school fantasy roleplaying fix? Don't despair...Fight On! Check it out at http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/FightOn.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7972
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:20 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:One of my favorites was always Dark Clouds Gather. And of course Bone Hill. Both excellent adventures.

I am still a huge fan of JG. The descriptions are fairly raw, and leave the details up to the GM. The reason why I prefer this is because it doesn't put any preconceived notions in the GM's head.




UK7had a very cool and epic plot, good monsters, and a great structure. Highly overlooked 1st edition item, I've only run it twice but both times the players absolutely had a ball with it.  As for Bone Hill, I must love it because I've run it about half a dozen times over the years.  It really has everything you need:  Fully stocked village (as a base for the adventurers), even got a couple of adventures you don't even have to leave town to participate in!.   Good NPCs that are fleshed out just enough, a nice balance of wilderness adventuring with dungeon adventuring, and Bone Hill itself which is pretty neat and has a few of the best and most overlooked monsters ever, the Zombire and Skeletar!  



Mike B.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7972
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:28 pm 
 

RWilson wrote:I just assumed everybody crapped in the hallway.




Hey, I actually wouldn't have any problems with that, as long as the area was described correctly in the descriptions: "You traverse another long hallway deep in the dungeon, carefully avoiding the noxious piles of ogre and orc dung strewn in hardening piles along the stone.  Your eyes and nose burn with the stench as you stifle the urge to vomit after stepping in a particularly fresh load which comes up to your ankles and has the color of spinach and the consistency of hot fudge."  Now that's something I could get into  8O



Mike B.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6789
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022
Location: UK

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:33 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:
RWilson wrote:I just assumed everybody crapped in the hallway.




Hey, I actually wouldn't have any problems with that, as long as the area was described correctly in the descriptions: "You traverse another long hallway deep in the dungeon, carefully avoiding the noxious piles of ogre and orc dung strewn in hardening piles along the stone. Your eyes and nose burn with the stench as you stifle the urge to vomit after stepping in a particularly fresh load which comes up to your ankles and has the color of spinach and the consistency of hot fudge." Now that's something I could get into 8O



Mike B.


With the evokative detail in that description, I'm looking forward to my most recent purchases from you, Mike. :(



<edit> It evokes memories of my wife's vegetables. A truely mouth watering description. :D


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chocolate buttons.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 27, 2003
Last Visit: Aug 23, 2017
Location: Atop a heap of slain orcs

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:59 pm 
 

Sweet Merciful Demogorgon my eyes are watering after that description.

  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 51, 2, 3, 4, 5