With the possible exception of Planescape, which is an acquired taste, TSR/WoTC haven't produced anything decent in the past 15 years. The company died when Buck Rogers daughter got her podgy little hands on it, and they've been trying to stangle more money out of it ever since.

Adam Shultz wrote:One thing they did right was bring in a whole new slew of exciting artists and put them along Easley. Ruppel, Brom, Fields, etc., all ushered lofty standards onto fantasy gaming.

And force Otus, Roslof, Dee to take commissions from collectors on the Internet...  :wink:



I'm not familiar with any of the artists you mentioned other than Easley, who I don't really care for. I've generally been selling off all my stuff I bought in the 80s with Easley covers.

Dont get me wrong. The early stuff is great as well but in a very different way. The shift in visual standards was undeniable.....and perhaps the quality of gaming.



If you ask me. I prefer 1e gaming creativity....and illustrations as well.  :wink:

2e art is colletible dujour amongst some fantasy peops. Mebber it has something to do with availablilty? But some think the quality is higher.  :wink:

bbarsh wrote:Ok. I am starting a new thread on the subject of modules. In another thread, it was mentioned how crappy 3.0 modules are from WoTC. I haven not read too many, and can agree - they suck.



But I have to say, I can't really find anything worth much in 2nd edition either. I quit actively playing just after the release of 2nd edition. I just read WGM1 Border Watch. A somewhat original concept, but the presentation is garbage. And I must say, it takes a bit of work to screw up module for 1st level characters, but they did it. Redundant encounters, and flat out boring.



The one thing that I see that is missing from most modules after 1st edition (and even some of those toward the end) is the basic concept of adventure. There is no sense of adventure or danger.



So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?

You aren't missing much, a lot of it is crap.  2nd edition really relies more on the "supplement" than the actual adventure. Witness the various FR series for Forgotten Realms and WGR series for Greyhawk, most are descriptions of settings instead of outright adventures.  I'm going to be honest and say there is a lot of 1st edition stuff I really don't like, and that includes a lot of the classics. Now I know we are playing a fantasy game, but the quickest way to lose myself and my group in the old school days was trying to be funny (EX1 and EX2, hated them) or creating a totally illogical deathtrap with "clues" and "riddles" and goofy traps and treasures and illogical reasons for the monsters to be waiting behind every door (C2 and S2 were much despised at my gaming table and in the circle of gamers I hung around with also). BTW UK1 is awful also, just had to get that in there too. So I'm not a 1st edition elitist by any means.  But pound for pound they had more entertainment value and replay value than anything written after 1989.  That being said, here are the only 2nd ed items I DM'd and liked, and that the party I ran them through really enjoyed, and some I've even run multiple times:



FRQ1 Haunted Halls of Eveningstar---A nice little uncomplicated low level adventure complete with village, surrounding area, sidetrips and a main adventuring area.  A nice setting/intro for a beginning party that can be set almost anywhere you need.  Ed Greenwood really sucks as a fiction writer, but his adventues and supplements are generally of pretty high quality.  He has the same ability as Gary (he probably got it from reading Gary's stuff) to make a small encounter, single room, or monstrous opponent quite interesting. This adventure is pretty hard to find so it's overlooked a lot, but I would recommend it as a good low level crawl.



WGR6 City of Skulls---I really thought this was a challenge for high level Greyhawk characters.  A party must invade the land of Iuz for a rescue mission, it was voted one of the 30 best adventures of all time in Dungeon #116 (although I disagree with a lot of the rankings in that top 30).  I would have to say it's probably one of the best high level adventures of all time in way it's put together.....you really get a sense when playing (and dming it) that any second the party is going to do something wrong and get their ass handed to them by the bad guys, since during the entire adventure the party is basically infiltrating an evil country and city and prison the tension is high the entire time, no resting spot is safe.  Carl Sargent did a good job on this. It has a Warhammer feel which is logical since Carl did a lot of Warhammer stuff also. So there is that sense of danger and adventure you are looking for, plus the characters have a chance to effect the actual history of Greyhawk if they complete their mission...the best of the 1st ed modules had the characters as the instigators of historical events (G series, D series, A series, T series) that could change the face of the world, I think this one pulls it off also.



Gates of Firestorm Peak---I dunno maybe it's me but I think this is one of the best adventures in the last 20 years or so, a really otherworldy, bizarre, and in it's own way frightening setting (that's not Planescape!), really totally unlike any other "let's go into the mountain and fight the monsters" type of adventure ever published.  Another one voted top 30 of all time, I might even agree to this.  I think this is another you can really scare the players with...I've only run it once but the players absolutely LOVED it, one guy said it was the first time since he started playing in the early 80's he really didn't know what was going to happen next, that and he was actually scared for his character's life.  Plus, cool maps for this one.



Ruins of Undermountain-----Dathon is pulling down his pants to whiz all over this pick, but I loved the entire thing...maybe the concept isa bit goofy, but come on, didn't every single one of us really, really want a gigantic multilevel dungeon that had an entire book of fleshed out encounters when we first started out?   If this had come out in 1979 and was the exact same adventure word for word except set under Greyhawk not Waterdeep, I think this might be considered the greatest gaming product of all time. A lot of anti FRealms, anti Greenwood, anti 2nd ed nonsense have really blinded a lot of people over the years.  The funny thing is that it's probably the most Judge's Guild like product ever published by TSR.  Lots of huge, sprawling area, lots of empty areas that need filling with monsters or traps or whatever, they even have random lists of items you can find or traps you can run into like the old classic JG stuff used to have on charts in the product. I once ran a party through a campaign that lasted three years and used only this, FR1 Waterdeep and the North and Volo's Guide to Waterdeep.  I think the "adventure" aspect holds up well, what kind of player doesn't get excited about trying to completely map out (for the no other reason excuse of "wanting to map it all out") 3+ levels of twisting turning corridors and hallways. I think the guys I ran through this had more fun mapping the damn thing than anything else.



HHQ series----I liked some of these as good low level one shots for a party of adventurers (instead of 1 player as suggested), so sue me.



That's all I can think of offhand, there is a lot more bad than good when it comes to 2nd ed but some of it isn't totally irredeemable.



Mike B.

I have always said DragonLance was the point of the spear that impaled TSR. I honestly do not know anyone (personally) who got past the third or fourth module.



I was totally excited about the concept and had started a campaign about six months before the release of DL1. I used one of the Judges Guild Modules (had lots of dragons in it) to set up a gate that transported the player characters into DL1). My gaming group would never use pregenerated characters. By the time we got to DL3 the players hated it and so did I. Gated back to Greyhawk...



I know some people are going to be shocked, but I have a distaste for much of the DL art, too. All the characters look like freaking 60's deadbeat hippies. Give me Truman, Roslof and Willingham anyday.



Still waiting...any good 2e modules...

bbarsh wrote:Badmike,



I am with you on EX1/2, UK1 and several others. They suck outright. Totally unplayable. I also hated X2. But for every crappy 1e mod, there many more that are solid. I give the C series wide latitude as those are tournament modules and don't have to make sense, to a large degree.



I forgot about the "Challenge" modules. They do have that 1e feel and I liked the couple I read.

The EX series were unplayable for real use but I always took them as an April Fools Day type of run. I have run UK1 but as a one shot and not in a campaign but found it enjoyable. Now X2 it is one of my favorites to run because of the feel of the module.



To be honest I do not even remember enough about 2E to say if they had modules or not. Its focus seemed to be too much on FR as I recall for my taste. The FR setting was never my cup of tea. I always preferred Greyhawk and D&D Gazetter campaign setting when I did not use my stuff.

talking of Dragonlance mods, i bought the first 4 when they came out - DMd DL1, which was ok. everyone seemed to enjoy it, but man did DL2 and DL3 suck eggs really bad. i absolutely hated them. in fact i hated them so bad, i gave up on DL4 and it never got played in the end.



they promised so much imo and really didnt meet the grade imo.



we also tried EX1 and EX2 - fun concepts and all, but very hard to play. in the end we gave up.



i also didnt like the H series either. but then that was prb just my own preference. once you get to them levels, the point of playing is lost imo.



Al

bbarsh wrote:So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?

Despite some of the initial rail-roading in it, I'm very fond of the Greyhawk 98 module "Return of the Eight" by Roger E. Moore.  I also liked the Star Cairns, though Doomgrinder and the Crypt of Lyzendrad the Mad (sp?) were OK at best.  I got the Falcon triology last year sometime, and it's relatively poor as well.  Vecna Lives is a relatively poor adventure, but makes for some interesting reading to expand on Vecna's background.  



I don't know many 2e modules, since I also quit D&D with the advent of 2e (or at least never "upgraded").  Some of the Lankhmar modules were good, but I think the ones I'm thinking of were also 1e

Badmike wrote:I'm going to be honest and say there is a lot of 1st edition stuff I really don't like, and that includes a lot of the classics. Now I know we are playing a fantasy game, but the quickest way to lose myself and my group in the old school days was trying to be funny (EX1 and EX2, hated them)

We liked EX1/2 as bizarre little realms, but I agree, if you're looking for some sort of consistency of tone in the campaign, I think they can definitely be a distraction (which was, in part, the point).  (Semi-relatedly, I finally read Don Turnbull's D&D version of Alice in WD via Ian's WD archive, and I definitely like Gygax's better).  

or creating a totally illogical deathtrap with "clues" and "riddles" and goofy traps and treasures and illogical reasons for the monsters to be waiting behind every door (C2 and S2 were much despised at my gaming table and in the circle of gamers I hung around with also).

Both among my least favorite 1e modules.  I like S2 for the backstory, the Erol Otus map, and the artwork (in particular the halfling-polymorphed ogre mage) but that's about it.  Some of the encounters were cool (the gorge, for example), but otherwise it was pretty lame.  C2 was much worse, with little redeeming value to it at all (although some of the illos from the WinterCon version that didn't make the C2 verison are cool).

Ed Greenwood really sucks as a fiction writer, but his adventues and supplements are generally of pretty high quality. He has the same ability as Gary (he probably got it from reading Gary's stuff) to make a small encounter, single room, or monstrous opponent quite interesting. This adventure is pretty hard to find so it's overlooked a lot, but I would recommend it as a good low level crawl.

Good to know, I'm a fan of Greenwood's work from his Dragon articles, and like the FR stuff written by him too.  I'll add that to my wish list

WGR6 City of Skulls---I really thought this was a challenge for high level Greyhawk characters.

I agree, this and Vecna Lives were the only 2e GH modules I bought upon release back-in-the-day.  CoS is quite good, and I like the reputation system that Sargent created in it, too.

Ruins of Undermountain-----Dathon is pulling down his pants to whiz all over this pick, but I loved the entire thing...maybe the concept isa bit goofy, but come on, didn't every single one of us really, really want a gigantic multilevel dungeon that had an entire book of fleshed out encounters when we first started out?  

But of course!  I used many parts of this (and the various articles by Greenwood in Dragon) in my version of Castle Greyhawk, details from which you can take a gander at on my site:  http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog.html

If this had come out in 1979 and was the exact same adventure word for word except set under Greyhawk not Waterdeep, I think this might be considered the greatest gaming product of all time.

Definitely possible!