The Garbage that was...
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 41, 2, 3, 4
Author

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3861
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 28, 2021
Location: Milford, Michigan

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:14 pm 
 

Ok. I am starting a new thread on the subject of modules. In another thread, it was mentioned how crappy 3.0 modules are from WoTC. I haven not read too many, and can agree - they suck.



But I have to say, I can't really find anything worth much in 2nd edition either. I quit actively playing just after the release of 2nd edition. I just read WGM1 Border Watch. A somewhat original concept, but the presentation is garbage. And I must say, it takes a bit of work to screw up module for 1st level characters, but they did it. Redundant encounters, and flat out boring.



The one thing that I see that is missing from most modules after 1st edition (and even some of those toward the end) is the basic concept of adventure. There is no sense of adventure or danger.



So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6260
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: May 12, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:26 pm 
 

With the possible exception of Planescape, which is an acquired taste, TSR/WoTC haven't produced anything decent in the past 15 years. The company died when Buck Rogers daughter got her podgy little hands on it, and they've been trying to stangle more money out of it ever since.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 590
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Last Visit: Oct 15, 2020
Location: NYC

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 7:42 pm 
 

One thing they did right was bring in a whole new slew of exciting artists and put them along Easley. Ruppel, Brom, Fields, etc., all ushered lofty standards onto fantasy gaming.


"before chuck even gets in the room, you can feel the bad-ness." -Al

  


Verbose Collector

Posts: 1654
Joined: Sep 03, 2003
Last Visit: May 01, 2021
Location: Portown

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:03 pm 
 

Adam Shultz wrote:One thing they did right was bring in a whole new slew of exciting artists and put them along Easley. Ruppel, Brom, Fields, etc., all ushered lofty standards onto fantasy gaming.




And force Otus, Roslof, Dee to take commissions from collectors on the Internet...  :wink:



I'm not familiar with any of the artists you mentioned other than Easley, who I don't really care for. I've generally been selling off all my stuff I bought in the 80s with Easley covers.

 WWW  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:11 pm 
 

zhowar1 wrote:
Adam Shultz wrote:One thing they did right was bring in a whole new slew of exciting artists and put them along Easley. Ruppel, Brom, Fields, etc., all ushered lofty standards onto fantasy gaming.




And force Otus, Roslof, Dee to take commissions from collectors on the Internet... :wink:



I'm not familiar with any of the artists you mentioned other than Easley, who I don't really care for. I've generally been selling off all my stuff I bought in the 80s with Easley covers.


Heh.  To each their own, I guess.  I love Easley & Caldwell, can't stand the newer artists, and poor Otus was the butt of many jokes 'round the gaming table in my youth...Roslof & Dee are vaguely familiar.

 YIM  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 590
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Last Visit: Oct 15, 2020
Location: NYC

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:06 pm 
 

Dont get me wrong. The early stuff is great as well but in a very different way. The shift in visual standards was undeniable.....and perhaps the quality of gaming.



If you ask me. I prefer 1e gaming creativity....and illustrations as well.  :wink:


"before chuck even gets in the room, you can feel the bad-ness." -Al

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 4750
Joined: Oct 31, 2004
Last Visit: May 05, 2021
Location: Garland, TX

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:18 pm 
 

Adam Shultz wrote:One thing they did right was bring in a whole new slew of exciting artists and put them along Easley. Ruppel, Brom, Fields, etc., all ushered lofty standards onto fantasy gaming.




To each his own I guess.  I thought most of the art during 2nd edition was pretty subpar.  Tony Scudzlow? (Crypt of Lyzandred the Mad), Jeff Starlind (Howl from the North), Ken Frank (Falcon trilogy), and anything from Ravenloft was pretty uninspiring.  Heck even the Dave Dorman cover to Gargoyle was bad and I really love most of his artwork.



To me they just dont compare to the earlier stuff.  Roslof's cover to C2 is what made me want to buy it in the first place.



So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?




Two words:  Dead Gods.  :twisted:

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 590
Joined: Nov 10, 2002
Last Visit: Oct 15, 2020
Location: NYC

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:35 pm 
 

2e art is colletible dujour amongst some fantasy peops. Mebber it has something to do with availablilty? But some think the quality is higher.  :wink:


"before chuck even gets in the room, you can feel the bad-ness." -Al

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 482
Joined: May 12, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 15, 2020

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:59 pm 
 

Unfortunately, with 2E we saw a shift from "adventure" to "storytelling" that began with Dragonlance. It was the same shift that occured in fantasy literature, and the two actually fed each other. Rather than being the "adventurer in the campaign," characters became "protagonists in the story," to fit the expectations of the new players. Like protagonists in a story, often, the characters in the game are just driven along with the story, with player input here and there, like a pick-your-path adventure... not quite a railroad adventure, but compared to the adventures of the day, nearly so.



Because, gawds forbid that your character actually DIES! Why, you have a story to tell with him/her/it... so most 2E "adventures" were more along the lines of "and here's where the players encounter the real heroes/action in the story, now let them react" kind of "adventure."



Which was no adventure at all...


James

*************
James Mishler
James Mishler Games

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7955
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: May 11, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:30 pm 
 

bbarsh wrote:Ok. I am starting a new thread on the subject of modules. In another thread, it was mentioned how crappy 3.0 modules are from WoTC. I haven not read too many, and can agree - they suck.



But I have to say, I can't really find anything worth much in 2nd edition either. I quit actively playing just after the release of 2nd edition. I just read WGM1 Border Watch. A somewhat original concept, but the presentation is garbage. And I must say, it takes a bit of work to screw up module for 1st level characters, but they did it. Redundant encounters, and flat out boring.



The one thing that I see that is missing from most modules after 1st edition (and even some of those toward the end) is the basic concept of adventure. There is no sense of adventure or danger.



So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?




You aren't missing much, a lot of it is crap.  2nd edition really relies more on the "supplement" than the actual adventure. Witness the various FR series for Forgotten Realms and WGR series for Greyhawk, most are descriptions of settings instead of outright adventures.  I'm going to be honest and say there is a lot of 1st edition stuff I really don't like, and that includes a lot of the classics. Now I know we are playing a fantasy game, but the quickest way to lose myself and my group in the old school days was trying to be funny (EX1 and EX2, hated them) or creating a totally illogical deathtrap with "clues" and "riddles" and goofy traps and treasures and illogical reasons for the monsters to be waiting behind every door (C2 and S2 were much despised at my gaming table and in the circle of gamers I hung around with also). BTW UK1 is awful also, just had to get that in there too. So I'm not a 1st edition elitist by any means.  But pound for pound they had more entertainment value and replay value than anything written after 1989.  That being said, here are the only 2nd ed items I DM'd and liked, and that the party I ran them through really enjoyed, and some I've even run multiple times:



FRQ1 Haunted Halls of Eveningstar---A nice little uncomplicated low level adventure complete with village, surrounding area, sidetrips and a main adventuring area.  A nice setting/intro for a beginning party that can be set almost anywhere you need.  Ed Greenwood really sucks as a fiction writer, but his adventues and supplements are generally of pretty high quality.  He has the same ability as Gary (he probably got it from reading Gary's stuff) to make a small encounter, single room, or monstrous opponent quite interesting. This adventure is pretty hard to find so it's overlooked a lot, but I would recommend it as a good low level crawl.



WGR6 City of Skulls---I really thought this was a challenge for high level Greyhawk characters.  A party must invade the land of Iuz for a rescue mission, it was voted one of the 30 best adventures of all time in Dungeon #116 (although I disagree with a lot of the rankings in that top 30).  I would have to say it's probably one of the best high level adventures of all time in way it's put together.....you really get a sense when playing (and dming it) that any second the party is going to do something wrong and get their ass handed to them by the bad guys, since during the entire adventure the party is basically infiltrating an evil country and city and prison the tension is high the entire time, no resting spot is safe.  Carl Sargent did a good job on this. It has a Warhammer feel which is logical since Carl did a lot of Warhammer stuff also. So there is that sense of danger and adventure you are looking for, plus the characters have a chance to effect the actual history of Greyhawk if they complete their mission...the best of the 1st ed modules had the characters as the instigators of historical events (G series, D series, A series, T series) that could change the face of the world, I think this one pulls it off also.



Gates of Firestorm Peak---I dunno maybe it's me but I think this is one of the best adventures in the last 20 years or so, a really otherworldy, bizarre, and in it's own way frightening setting (that's not Planescape!), really totally unlike any other "let's go into the mountain and fight the monsters" type of adventure ever published.  Another one voted top 30 of all time, I might even agree to this.  I think this is another you can really scare the players with...I've only run it once but the players absolutely LOVED it, one guy said it was the first time since he started playing in the early 80's he really didn't know what was going to happen next, that and he was actually scared for his character's life.  Plus, cool maps for this one.



Ruins of Undermountain-----Dathon is pulling down his pants to whiz all over this pick, but I loved the entire thing...maybe the concept isa bit goofy, but come on, didn't every single one of us really, really want a gigantic multilevel dungeon that had an entire book of fleshed out encounters when we first started out?   If this had come out in 1979 and was the exact same adventure word for word except set under Greyhawk not Waterdeep, I think this might be considered the greatest gaming product of all time. A lot of anti FRealms, anti Greenwood, anti 2nd ed nonsense have really blinded a lot of people over the years.  The funny thing is that it's probably the most Judge's Guild like product ever published by TSR.  Lots of huge, sprawling area, lots of empty areas that need filling with monsters or traps or whatever, they even have random lists of items you can find or traps you can run into like the old classic JG stuff used to have on charts in the product. I once ran a party through a campaign that lasted three years and used only this, FR1 Waterdeep and the North and Volo's Guide to Waterdeep.  I think the "adventure" aspect holds up well, what kind of player doesn't get excited about trying to completely map out (for the no other reason excuse of "wanting to map it all out") 3+ levels of twisting turning corridors and hallways. I think the guys I ran through this had more fun mapping the damn thing than anything else.



HHQ series----I liked some of these as good low level one shots for a party of adventurers (instead of 1 player as suggested), so sue me.



That's all I can think of offhand, there is a lot more bad than good when it comes to 2nd ed but some of it isn't totally irredeemable.



Mike B.

 WWW  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3593
Joined: Dec 20, 2003
Last Visit: May 10, 2021
Location: Canada

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:35 pm 
 

And the marching band of the good old days starts again :roll:



J


Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

 WWW  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3861
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 28, 2021
Location: Milford, Michigan

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:40 pm 
 

I have always said DragonLance was the point of the spear that impaled TSR. I honestly do not know anyone (personally) who got past the third or fourth module.



I was totally excited about the concept and had started a campaign about six months before the release of DL1. I used one of the Judges Guild Modules (had lots of dragons in it) to set up a gate that transported the player characters into DL1). My gaming group would never use pregenerated characters. By the time we got to DL3 the players hated it and so did I. Gated back to Greyhawk...



I know some people are going to be shocked, but I have a distaste for much of the DL art, too. All the characters look like freaking 60's deadbeat hippies. Give me Truman, Roslof and Willingham anyday.



Still waiting...any good 2e modules...


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

 WWW  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3861
Joined: Feb 21, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 28, 2021
Location: Milford, Michigan

Post Posted: Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:55 pm 
 

Badmike,



I am with you on EX1/2, UK1 and several others. They suck outright. Totally unplayable. I also hated X2. But for every crappy 1e mod, there many more that are solid. I give the C series wide latitude as those are tournament modules and don't have to make sense, to a large degree.



I forgot about the "Challenge" modules. They do have that 1e feel and I liked the couple I read.


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

 WWW  

User avatar

Verbose Collector

Posts: 1271
Joined: Jan 09, 2005
Last Visit: Nov 17, 2020
Location: Azeroth

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:38 am 
 

bbarsh wrote:Badmike,



I am with you on EX1/2, UK1 and several others. They suck outright. Totally unplayable. I also hated X2. But for every crappy 1e mod, there many more that are solid. I give the C series wide latitude as those are tournament modules and don't have to make sense, to a large degree.



I forgot about the "Challenge" modules. They do have that 1e feel and I liked the couple I read.




The EX series were unplayable for real use but I always took them as an April Fools Day type of run. I have run UK1 but as a one shot and not in a campaign but found it enjoyable. Now X2 it is one of my favorites to run because of the feel of the module.



To be honest I do not even remember enough about 2E to say if they had modules or not. Its focus seemed to be too much on FR as I recall for my taste. The FR setting was never my cup of tea. I always preferred Greyhawk and D&D Gazetter campaign setting when I did not use my stuff.


Information Superhighway - A Rough Whimper of Insanity - Scott Hansen

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7955
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: May 11, 2021
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:45 am 
 

bbarsh wrote:Badmike,



I am with you on EX1/2, UK1 and several others. They suck outright. Totally unplayable. I also hated X2. But for every crappy 1e mod, there many more that are solid. I give the C series wide latitude as those are tournament modules and don't have to make sense, to a large degree.



I forgot about the "Challenge" modules. They do have that 1e feel and I liked the couple I read.




Well, being as how practically every 2nd ed module sucks, it's not hard to find more solid 1st ed stuff.  Another problem with 2nd ed is they got stuck in the storytelling "trilogy" mold that led to some bad stuff, i.e. FRE series, Marco Volo series, Sword of Dales series, etc.  These trilogies didn't even have one modules worth of good stuff.

  Also another interesting 2nd ed campaign was the Night Below adventure.  Not so much the first (above ground) book, but once the underdark is reached, especially the Kuo Toan city (which should be an absolute epic battle), some pretty good adventuring here and the really great thing, no Drow!  At all!  The Kuo Toans, Aboleth and Derro make pretty good foes with unusual and hard to counter powers, and the massively deadly finale should be epic. As a way of explanation, I ran a party through this adventure, the campaign took a couple of years, and guess what, the campaign ended when over half the party (character lvls 9-12) were destroyed in the initial assault on the Aboleth island in the Sunless Sea.  While the survivors rested up and the unlucky players who lost their guys debated which new characters to roll up, the group finally broke up...most the guys really liked their characters and didn't have the heart to roll up new ones after playing them so long and getting their ass kicked so badly (and I'm definitely not a killer DM, the adventure is just that deadly).  During the course of the campaign we also had two player characters go insane (the first was killed and destroyed by the party after he tried to murder another character;  while the second was caught and cured before he did something just as  terrible), one ran off with one of the Rock Elf females rather than die in an assault on the Aboleth island (pretty precognizant, I thought), and a party cleric got into a feud with another party cleric of a different religion and was "accidentally" killed one of the 2nd cleric's followers (good roleplaying actually on both player's parts).  This all happened even before they got to the Sunless Sea where another half dozen bit the dust!  First campaign I ever had that ended by party destruction! You might give this one a look.

   Something I just thought of, maybe there were so many lame 2nd ed modules because all the really great potential module writers were doing their thing in Dungeon magazine instead of writing modules?  There were some adventures published in this zine, way, way better than anything ever out in module form.  Christopher Perkins, Willie Walsh, Paul Culotta, Todd James Zuvich, David Howery, all were consistently putting out better 2nd ed stuff than anything being published. Maybe the problem was talent drain.....anyone need a list of good 2nd ed Dungeon mag modules, I have a nice list available.  Mud Sorceror's Tomb, Shards of the Day, Kingdom of the Ghouls (think that's the name), Khazafryn, Siege of Kraty's Freehold, all very good and much superior to any "published" module.

   The Challenge series (HHQ) has some decent one shots or adventures that can be worked into a campaign, nothing too fancy but I like them because they could be run for a low level party with not much work on my part.  I think the Wizard's Challenge I remember being one of the better plotlines.

    Anyone else play/DM Gates of Firestorm Peak or Night Below?

Mike B.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:16 am 
 

talking of Dragonlance mods, i bought the first 4 when they came out - DMd DL1, which was ok. everyone seemed to enjoy it, but man did DL2 and DL3 suck eggs really bad. i absolutely hated them. in fact i hated them so bad, i gave up on DL4 and it never got played in the end.



they promised so much imo and really didnt meet the grade imo.



we also tried EX1 and EX2 - fun concepts and all, but very hard to play. in the end we gave up.



i also didnt like the H series either. but then that was prb just my own preference. once you get to them levels, the point of playing is lost imo.



Al



  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb 11, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 28, 2007
Location: Orlando, Fl

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:08 am 
 

I like most of the modules I've read in all editions, but then again I only use them as frameworks and often alter them as suits my needs.  A good 2e mod?  My collection is packed away, and can't name mods of the top of my head.  Will need to look through a list and think about it.


There are no bad editions of D&D, just Boring Players and Unimaginative DMs.

  


Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5624
Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Last Visit: May 12, 2021
Location: Wichita, KS, USA

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:03 am 
 

bbarsh wrote:So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?




Despite some of the initial rail-roading in it, I'm very fond of the Greyhawk 98 module "Return of the Eight" by Roger E. Moore.  I also liked the Star Cairns, though Doomgrinder and the Crypt of Lyzendrad the Mad (sp?) were OK at best.  I got the Falcon triology last year sometime, and it's relatively poor as well.  Vecna Lives is a relatively poor adventure, but makes for some interesting reading to expand on Vecna's background.  



I don't know many 2e modules, since I also quit D&D with the advent of 2e (or at least never "upgraded").  Some of the Lankhmar modules were good, but I think the ones I'm thinking of were also 1e ;)


Allan Grohe ([email protected])
Greyhawk, grodog Style

Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing
https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:37 am 
 

grodog wrote:
bbarsh wrote:So, what am I missing. Which module in 2nd ed. is good?




Despite some of the initial rail-roading in it, I'm very fond of the Greyhawk 98 module "Return of the Eight" by Roger E. Moore. I also liked the Star Cairns, though Doomgrinder and the Crypt of Lyzendrad the Mad (sp?) were OK at best. I got the Falcon triology last year sometime, and it's relatively poor as well. Vecna Lives is a relatively poor adventure, but makes for some interesting reading to expand on Vecna's background.



I don't know many 2e modules, since I also quit D&D with the advent of 2e (or at least never "upgraded"). Some of the Lankhmar modules were good, but I think the ones I'm thinking of were also 1e ;)




only four i really looked at, tho i have a fair few, are doomgrinder, and i think its howl from the north, Iuz the Evil and The Marklands.



doomgrinder i thought looked fab when you first start looking at it, but the interest in the module faded the more i read it - shame.



howl from the north, looked quite interesting to me, simply due to the fact that it gave me an excuse to lead characters into the extreme north with some decent purpose and it leads to some cool roleplaying in the snow and ice etc. material in that mod was not bad. not the best, but playable.



Iuz and Marklands, i really liked. really expanded some ideas i had already and i was able to use material from the both of them as well as stuff that was related in the module too, to turn out some really cool adventures for the group. two of the better 2E greyhawk items imo.



Al



  


Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5624
Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Last Visit: May 12, 2021
Location: Wichita, KS, USA

Post Posted: Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:56 am 
 

Badmike wrote:I'm going to be honest and say there is a lot of 1st edition stuff I really don't like, and that includes a lot of the classics. Now I know we are playing a fantasy game, but the quickest way to lose myself and my group in the old school days was trying to be funny (EX1 and EX2, hated them)




We liked EX1/2 as bizarre little realms, but I agree, if you're looking for some sort of consistency of tone in the campaign, I think they can definitely be a distraction (which was, in part, the point).  (Semi-relatedly, I finally read Don Turnbull's D&D version of Alice in WD via Ian's WD archive, and I definitely like Gygax's better).  



or creating a totally illogical deathtrap with "clues" and "riddles" and goofy traps and treasures and illogical reasons for the monsters to be waiting behind every door (C2 and S2 were much despised at my gaming table and in the circle of gamers I hung around with also).




Both among my least favorite 1e modules.  I like S2 for the backstory, the Erol Otus map, and the artwork (in particular the halfling-polymorphed ogre mage) but that's about it.  Some of the encounters were cool (the gorge, for example), but otherwise it was pretty lame.  C2 was much worse, with little redeeming value to it at all (although some of the illos from the WinterCon version that didn't make the C2 verison are cool).



Ed Greenwood really sucks as a fiction writer, but his adventues and supplements are generally of pretty high quality. He has the same ability as Gary (he probably got it from reading Gary's stuff) to make a small encounter, single room, or monstrous opponent quite interesting. This adventure is pretty hard to find so it's overlooked a lot, but I would recommend it as a good low level crawl.




Good to know, I'm a fan of Greenwood's work from his Dragon articles, and like the FR stuff written by him too.  I'll add that to my wish list :D



WGR6 City of Skulls---I really thought this was a challenge for high level Greyhawk characters.




I agree, this and Vecna Lives were the only 2e GH modules I bought upon release back-in-the-day.  CoS is quite good, and I like the reputation system that Sargent created in it, too.



Ruins of Undermountain-----Dathon is pulling down his pants to whiz all over this pick, but I loved the entire thing...maybe the concept isa bit goofy, but come on, didn't every single one of us really, really want a gigantic multilevel dungeon that had an entire book of fleshed out encounters when we first started out?  




But of course!  I used many parts of this (and the various articles by Greenwood in Dragon) in my version of Castle Greyhawk, details from which you can take a gander at on my site:  http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/gh_castle_grodog.html



If this had come out in 1979 and was the exact same adventure word for word except set under Greyhawk not Waterdeep, I think this might be considered the greatest gaming product of all time.




Definitely possible!


Allan Grohe ([email protected])
Greyhawk, grodog Style

Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing
https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/

 WWW  
Next
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 41, 2, 3, 4