Roslof??
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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:39 pm 
 

Count me in for $375 per piece recreated or updated.  They could make some nice extra money off of us anytime.   :D

  


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:00 pm 
 

I did a cover for Goodman Games, he pays 75$ for them. I used to get 100-150 for a full page b/w. By the time I filled the gastank, drove thru tolls to the nearest Kinko's got the scan and emailed I actually made 15$ on the cover. I couldn't afford to work for him, and I'm afraid this may represent the whole genre these days, or I got a Chump sign around my neck!!




This is the quote, Allan. I am not sure what you heard or well but this is directly from one of the artists we worship on these boards.  8O





You guys should actually try to contact these artists and offer for their services. Some of them really need to cash. Just because we worship them doesn't mean they are cash rich rock stars.  :wink:


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:04 pm 
 

Adam Shultz wrote:
I did a cover for Goodman Games, he pays 75$ for them. I used to get 100-150 for a full page b/w. By the time I filled the gastank, drove thru tolls to the nearest Kinko's got the scan and emailed I actually made 15$ on the cover. I couldn't afford to work for him, and I'm afraid this may represent the whole genre these days, or I got a Chump sign around my neck!!




This is the quote, Allan. I am not sure what you heard or well but this is directly from one of the artists we worship on these boards. 8O





You guys should actually try to contact these artists and offer for their services. Some of them really need to cash. Just because we worship them doesn't mean they are cash rich rock stars. :wink:




Maybe someone should invite them over here to post.

sees the PM inbox of said artists filling up much faster than they can type :twisted:  :twisted:  :twisted:


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:04 pm 
 

well if anyone has e-mail addresses for them, there are some i would REALLY like and am happy to shell out the cash for them, so please PM me!! :)



thx



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:11 pm 
 

I have emailed Erol Otus perhaps a dozen times. I am sure he has reported me for stalking him as he hasn't replied. I even had Joseph Goodman forward an email.  :lol:



If anyone can crack that nut will you please vow to let me buy some of his stuff?


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:17 pm 
 

:lol: May I make a special request?



Please dont ask these guys to recreate original works. I dont think they can since TSR/Hasbro owns the rights to the images. Plus, it could get terribly confusing or at worst perverted to have clones of expensive originals flowing through the collectors hands.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:22 pm 
 

Adam Shultz wrote::lol: May I make a special request?



Please dont ask these guys to recreate original works. I dont think they can since TSR/Hasbro owns the rights to the images. Plus, it could get terribly confusing or at worst perverted to have clones of expensive originals flowing through the collectors hands.




all i want really is a print of a party battling with lolth. that would be just perfect for me :)



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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 6:31 pm 
 

Adam Shultz wrote:I have emailed Erol Otus perhaps a dozen times. I am sure he has reported me for stalking him as he hasn't replied. I even had Joseph Goodman forward an email.




FWIW, I talked with Erol at length at a convention in 2003, and he really gave the impression of having very little interest in the whole internet/e-mail thing (without coming right out and saying so, he more or less implied that he wasn't a big computer guy). For a good example of this, consider his "official" web site, which isn't really a site at all and hasn't been updated since at least 2003:



http://www.erolotus.com/



Frankly, I think you'd have more luck with Erol if you went the old-school route, put pen to paper, and wrote him c/o Goodman Games. That's nothing more than a somewhat-educated guess, though ...

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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:09 pm 
 

dathon wrote:
jamesmishler wrote:(Sorry for the lecture, but I'm having trouble with people lately who seem to think that people are in this industry "just for the love of it." Drives me nuts...)




But that seems to be the case based on your above tally. Goodman doesn't stand to make much money from publishing modules, so why else is he doing it besides love of the game and/or vanity (in Goodman's case, I mean that in a good way)?

I really like the Goodman stuff so I hope they continue publishing modules, but they don't seem to be making much money off it.




For one thing, the example I gave was very general. Goodman Games might be paying its authors only $0.02 per word, or $0.01 per word, or less. They might be getting their art a bit cheaper, or even get their print jobs done cheaper. It all depends on a lot of variables... and if you are good, you can get the numbers to work in a way that, not only can you publish, but you can also pay the bills and make yourself some money. Which knowing Joe, as savvy as he is, I'm sure he's doing, otherwise, love it or not, he would not be publishing right now.



But swimming in money, I can guarantee you he is not. That, perhaps, is my point. Ken Whitman once said, "If you were working in the game industry 10 years ago, and making $20,000, and you are still in the industry today, if you are lucky, you are still making $20,000." That was said at least seven years ago or so.



Another maxim for the game industry is "The best way to make a small fortune in the game industry is to start with a large fortune."



I can count on two hands the number of gamers who actually got rich in the game industry since its inception decades ago (Gary, Peter, Richard, Lisa, Jordan, Michael... maybe two or three others). Big money was, indeed, made in the sale of Wizards of the Coast, the single largest payout ever in the industry... and most of that went to the investors, not the founders, who by that time did not own a majority of shares, or even a large minority.



Everybody sees the beautiful books publishers bring out these days, and think they are being charged an arm and a leg for them, and think that the companies are making big bucks, but it just ain't true.



Most game industry publishers, designers, editors, etc. make $20,000 a year, if they are lucky.



The vast majority of people in the industry do not own a house, and cannot get the credit to buy one, unless their significant other has a really, really good job.



The vast majority of people in the industry do not have health insurance, again, unless their significant other has a really, really good job.



When you look at the hours most professionals put into their work, against how much they actually get paid, and calculate it out, it is significantly less than minimum wage.



Many professionals, unless a company takes them, cannot afford to go to Gen Con or Origins.



Most professionals cannot afford to buy the games their industry produces, and depend on the "complementary copy" network to actually get games.



A significant number of game industry professionals have had to go through bankruptcy in order to stay in the industry that they love.



And it is only getting harder and harder every year. I've seen friends lose their houses and their cars, lose their marriages, and even lose their sanity, all in the name of staying in an industry that rewards them only with "love."



And so I get utterly infuriated when people charge companies with charging too much for their product, or claim that they are "raking in the dough." And then these same people bitch about how much they are being charged, usually while insulting some aspect of the designers work.



Sometimes, working in the game industry seems like being in an abusive relationship.  :cry:


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:23 pm 
 

Just as a side note to the discussion, if anyone wants to make an offer on the REAL Roslof Q1 cover painting, let me know and I'll be happy to forward it on. I sold it several years ago to a big collector (who doesn't frequent these boards) for way less than I should have . . . .


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:31 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:I'm with you. That sounds nuts. If anyone knows how to get ahold of Otus, Roslof or Dees, let them know I will pay them a firm $375 (five times their Goodman games rate) for either a redraw of a classic cover (Rogue's Gallery cover for Otus, Q1 for Roslof, A1 for Dees) or all original work from any of this trio in "classic D&D cover" form. That's right, they can just redraw or update their classic covers, or draw a cover for one of my homebrews, and I will gladly part with $375. Man, if that was true the Acaeum alone could support these guys in style for a good many years, as I bet I'm not the only one here who wouldn't mind hanging an "original" copy of the cover to Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits on their wall at home, signed by the artist.....!



Mike B.




Mike,



The $75 Otus is referring to is for secondary rights only, not for the actual piece of art. Typically, to get the actual piece of art (sans scondary rights) it will cost you betwen five and 20 times as much, depending on nature of the piece, the size, its importance, and the "name" attached to it.



Printing rights are always cheaper than the originals, and usually those rights are only "first use," for that single product and the right to use its image in advertising for that product. Of course, ikf you commission art painted as "work for hire," you as the buyer are getting all rights to the art, including the art itself (usually). And that is very expensive for the really good artists...



Realize that the art that Otus did for Goodman was probably no bigger than 6.75" tall by 11.25" wide (1.5 times the size of the final print on product). From Otus right now, you might be able to get that from him for $375, as he's not doing any other work at the moment (that I am aware of).



An original Caldwell, though, smaller than even that, will run you $1,200 these days (that's for one of the Magic cards he painted). The cover from the Orcs of Thar gazetteer? $2,500. An Everquest cover? $10,000. And none of those includes the rights to actually do anything with the painting other than own it and display it. You could not, for example, make and sell posters of a painting you bought like that. Those kinds of rights are a separate issue, and cost even more.



$75 isn't chump pay, though it is less than the going rate ($100 to $300, for "hot name" artists... note that the really big guys, like Elmore, Caldwell, and etc., have generally priced themselves out of the industry). For someone who hasn't done any art in some time, even though he has a "name" from back in the day, $75 for "first use" rights is probably fair.


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:42 pm 
 

Adam Shultz wrote:
I did a cover for Goodman Games, he pays 75$ for them. I used to get 100-150 for a full page b/w. By the time I filled the gastank, drove thru tolls to the nearest Kinko's got the scan and emailed I actually made 15$ on the cover. I couldn't afford to work for him, and I'm afraid this may represent the whole genre these days, or I got a Chump sign around my neck!!




This is the quote, Allan. I am not sure what you heard or well but this is directly from one of the artists we worship on these boards. 8O




Yeah, same here, so I wonder if we're being played off of one another, so to speak:  perhaps the artists we're talking to are making the publisher out to be a cheapskate, while the publisher is hinting at paying his artists a lot.  The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as always ;-)


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:13 pm 
 

For what it's worth, it's not just the gaming industry. Rates for cover artists in the publishing industry as a whole are nowhere near what they used to be. Daniel Horne (classic Dragon covers!) told me that he was offered a cover recently where the pay was exactly the same as the first job he ever got in publishing, 20+ years ago. And this was with a major book publisher.



Part of the reason is the profusion of digital art these days. The reality is that an artist can do a digital cover in about 1/3 the time of an oil painting - and publishers know this, so they have tended to reduce rates to reflect that reduction in time. Unfortunately, it screws artists who DON'T work digitally . . . .


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:48 pm 
 

Tsrart,



That is definitely a factor in games, too. Another is the fact that everybody and their brother wants to be a fantasy artist these days, and, as the industry is so tight on margin, overeager "artists" of barely passable skills are being used because they are willing to work dirt cheap just to "break in." That, of course, depresses the whole market...



Same is true for writers/designers, especially in d20. Of course, the fact that there are no barriers to publishing anymore mean that the situation for writers is even worse...



And, of course, the economies of publishing just aren't what it used to be. Used to ber the "Rule of 10," in which a publisher charged 10 times the print cost of a product as the MSRP. Now it is lucky to be "Rule of Five" or five times the base publishing costs. The discount for publishers has remained the same or worse, so the only way they can make up the increased printing costs is by going cheaper and cheaper on words and art...


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:46 am 
 

jamesmishler wrote:Tsrart,



That is definitely a factor in games, too. Another is the fact that everybody and their brother wants to be a fantasy artist these days, and, as the industry is so tight on margin, overeager "artists" of barely passable skills are being used because they are willing to work dirt cheap just to "break in." That, of course, depresses the whole market...



Same is true for writers/designers, especially in d20. Of course, the fact that there are no barriers to publishing anymore mean that the situation for writers is even worse...



And, of course, the economies of publishing just aren't what it used to be. Used to ber the "Rule of 10," in which a publisher charged 10 times the print cost of a product as the MSRP. Now it is lucky to be "Rule of Five" or five times the base publishing costs. The discount for publishers has remained the same or worse, so the only way they can make up the increased printing costs is by going cheaper and cheaper on words and art...




Wow, thanks for the input James.  No wonder there is so much crap out there nowadays, quality control is gone.  Some of the 3rd ed stuff looks like it was literally crapped out instead of created.  Makes sense though....



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Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:21 am 
 

jamesmishler wrote:
Badmike wrote:I'm with you. That sounds nuts. If anyone knows how to get ahold of Otus, Roslof or Dees, let them know I will pay them a firm $375 (five times their Goodman games rate) for either a redraw of a classic cover (Rogue's Gallery cover for Otus, Q1 for Roslof, A1 for Dees) or all original work from any of this trio in "classic D&D cover" form. That's right, they can just redraw or update their classic covers, or draw a cover for one of my homebrews, and I will gladly part with $375. Man, if that was true the Acaeum alone could support these guys in style for a good many years, as I bet I'm not the only one here who wouldn't mind hanging an "original" copy of the cover to Q1 Queen of the Demonweb Pits on their wall at home, signed by the artist.....!



Mike B.




Mike,



The $75 Otus is referring to is for secondary rights only, not for the actual piece of art. Typically, to get the actual piece of art (sans scondary rights) it will cost you betwen five and 20 times as much, depending on nature of the piece, the size, its importance, and the "name" attached to it.



Printing rights are always cheaper than the originals, and usually those rights are only "first use," for that single product and the right to use its image in advertising for that product. Of course, ikf you commission art painted as "work for hire," you as the buyer are getting all rights to the art, including the art itself (usually). And that is very expensive for the really good artists...



Realize that the art that Otus did for Goodman was probably no bigger than 6.75" tall by 11.25" wide (1.5 times the size of the final print on product). From Otus right now, you might be able to get that from him for $375, as he's not doing any other work at the moment (that I am aware of).



An original Caldwell, though, smaller than even that, will run you $1,200 these days (that's for one of the Magic cards he painted). The cover from the Orcs of Thar gazetteer? $2,500. An Everquest cover? $10,000. And none of those includes the rights to actually do anything with the painting other than own it and display it. You could not, for example, make and sell posters of a painting you bought like that. Those kinds of rights are a separate issue, and cost even more.



$75 isn't chump pay, though it is less than the going rate ($100 to $300, for "hot name" artists... note that the really big guys, like Elmore, Caldwell, and etc., have generally priced themselves out of the industry). For someone who hasn't done any art in some time, even though he has a "name" from back in the day, $75 for "first use" rights is probably fair.




   Once again thanks for the input.  I guess the point of my entire post earlier was that, well, don't these guys realize they have a entire base of rabid fans with LOTS of disposable income that would practically throw money at them under the right circumstances?  I know artists and writers and creative types are often very unsophisticated when it comes to financial measures, but come on...seems to me someone like Otus, Dee or Roslof could make a nice pocket of change by selling limited edition signed art to chumps like me and most of the other nostalgia hounds here on the boards. I know it's part of the entire "starving artist" routine not to realize this but dang, these guys could make some real $$ here!  The response from me, Killjoy, Dathon, etc is already enough to keep them in milk in cookies for years!  :D  Imagine if we got 5-10 more members on board.

    I also suppose the amount of $75 surprised me when that is much less than most of us will pay for a mass produced item, when you could have an "original" piece of art from one of the true old guard of artists in this industry.  I reiterate that $100-$400 is NOT a lot of money here for most of us for something like that.  I'm going to throw out a "What if".  As in, what if Erol Otus did a limited edition set of drawings on a "normal" scale (say, module cover sized)...hell, it could be anything, serpent men fighting some generic party of adventurers, I'm paying for the style not the subject... Ideally he could draw his interpretation of classic AD&D covers and to avoid copyright issues make it covers he never personally worked on (say, redraws of A1, B1, G1, D1 and S1, none of which he did originally).  Say Erol does these five, makes 20 print copies of each of them, signs and numbers them. Calls it something like "Classic AD&D...Otus Style" without explicitly referring to the original covers anywhere in the description...S1 becomes "Tomb of the Lich", G1 "Attack of the Giants", whatever.

  I'm going to stick my money directly in my mouth right here and now and say I'd buy a copy of each of these for, say, $100 each, and proudly frame and display them in my office. That's $500 just from me.  I am going to go out on a limb and say he sells ALL of these and makes a cool $10 grand (I don't know how much he would pocket after expenses, surely he could skim 8K or more from this project?).  I'm also going to go out on a limb and bet he would sell at last HALF with little or no advertising budget by just posting right here on the Acaeum....hell, he might sell all 100 prints on these boards alone!

   Mind you these are prints...for the original piece (not a sketch, but a full blown cover aka the Goodman games stuff he is doing) I would have no problem paying $300-$400 each for an original piece of art like this (again, no sketches or doodlings, but a full blown cover version that would eventually become the prints).  

    I bet a lot of us here would jump on board pretty quick if/when these sort of items actually were sold and we were bragging to each other of the "original" Otus or Roslof we had hanging on our walls!

  I guess the only thing left to do is for someone in the know, or someone that truly cares about these gentlemen's well being to contact them and tell them of the interest in a project like this.  Talk is cheap but if these guys knew they could make some solid CASH doing something like this I bet their interest would perk up.  

   Once again, if anyone here has contact with one of these fine artists let them know that I myself will be very willing to pay several hundred dollars for original artwork. I bet even if they decided to never follow up on an opportunity like this it would literally make their day to know they still have fans in this day and age...



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Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:54 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
 Once again, if anyone here has contact with one of these fine artists let them know that I myself will be very willing to pay several hundred dollars for original artwork.

Mike B.




Okee dokee . . . . I've dropped emails off to Jeff, Erol, and Jim, and will let you guys know if I hear anything back from them. I haven't been in touch with any of the guys in a while, but the email addresses seem to still be functional, so we'll see what happens . . . .


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:01 am 
 

James, Thanks for clearing up the fact that the $75 is for the right to print the original, not the actual artwork. That makes so much more sense.



That being said, I would fork over a nice sum for even a limited edition print as Badmike suggested. Make just 20 for the acaeum at $100 bucks a pop and I bet Otus or Holloway prints would sell out real quick.


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Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:03 am 
 

Count me in, I'm prob more interested in the origions than a limited prints, I've always thought about some nice origionals on the wall, Jeff, Erol, Larry... drool... Just make sure they ship overseas!!



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Post Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:05 am 
 

Badmike wrote:
 I guess the only thing left to do is for someone in the know, or someone that truly cares about these gentlemen's well being to contact them and tell them of the interest in a project like this. Talk is cheap but if these guys knew they could make some solid CASH doing something like this I bet their interest would perk up.

 Once again, if anyone here has contact with one of these fine artists let them know that I myself will be very willing to pay several hundred dollars for original artwork. I bet even if they decided to never follow up on an opportunity like this it would literally make their day to know they still have fans in this day and age...



Mike B.




i am certainly with mike on this one. i would love to have a little original of my own and some prints too, so yeah i agree. i dont have a lot of $ but this is something i have always wanted. ppl can be whoever they are and live by whatever principles they want to, but in the end, easy money is still just that. i can almost guarantee that the majority of the guys/gals here would jump at the chance of something like this.



i really hope that one/some of the artists are interested.



Al



  
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