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Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:48 am 
 

Fot the database I'm working on, I'm trying to figure out which TSR produced campaign settings there are, and when they first appeared.

So far, I've come up with...

None (Generic)
Greyhawk - 1980
Ravenloft - 1983
Conan - 1984
Dragonlance - 1984
Lankhmar - 1985
Forgotten Realms - 1987
Gazetteer - 1989
Spelljammer - 1989
Hollow World - 1990
Ravenloft - 1990
Dark Sun - 1991
Al-Qadim - 1992
Mystara        - 1994
Planescape - 1994
Redsteel - 1994
Birthright - 1995
Odyssey        - 1996

Chainmail - 2001
Kingdoms of Kalamar - 2001
Oriental Adventures - 2001
Warcraft - 2003
Eberron        - 2004

I know that some settings are part of others (like Creature Crucible -> Hollow World, Oriental Adventures -> Forgotten Realms).  However, not being familiar with all of the settings, I've got a stumper (for myself, at least...).  I know that both Odyssey and Red Steel involve the Savage Coast, which in turn are part of the Mystara setting.  But is Mystara its own entity, or does it belong to another setting?  How about Gazetteer?  Al-Qadim?

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Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:26 pm 
 

Greyhawk has to be earlier than 1980 as a first appearance?  Someone else must be able to answer this.


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:27 pm 
 

Hi, here are some suggestions/observations:

Oriental Adventures later became Kara-Tur which is part of the Forgotten Realms.

Al-Qadim is a "sub-setting" like Kara-Tur and part of the Forgotten Realms.

I would say that the Ravenloft Campaign Setting began in 1990.  If you go back to I6 it may be 1983, but I don't think the setting really came about until the the Realm of Terror set in 1990.



I was never a fan of D&D, but I think that the setting is something like this:

- Overall name of the setting:  Known World
- First appeared in B1, I think.  (Virtually) all subsequent D&D modules were set in the Known World.

I think the Gazetteer line simply pulled together all references from modules and turned them into a much more detailed setting:  The Known World.  

Hollow World is a "sub-setting" of the Known World.

I believe that Mystara is what the Known World became when D&D was dropped and it became AD&D instead.  Red Steel and Odyssey (not really familiar with them) would be "sub-settings" of Mystara which is the AD&D version of the Known World.


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 1:46 pm 
 

Mystara was the setting of the D&D game and thus dates back to the late 70's or early 80's.  It was only named Mystara in 1994 when the world was brought into AD&D.

One setting you missed is the Council of Wyrms.   I'm not sure if its part of another more familiar setting or not.

There are also the various historical campaign settings: The Glory of Rome, Charlemagne's Paladins, The Crusades, The Vikings, The Age of Heroes, A Mighty Fortress.

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Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:03 pm 
 

Greyhawk should be considered as going back to Gygax's original home campaign setting. I can't remember that exact year he started that. But there are many references to Greyhawk prior to 1980.

Then there's Blackmoor, which went through at least:
1) Dave Arneson's personal campaign setting
2) OD&D Supplement II - Blackmoor, especially the Temple of the Frog adventure
3) First Fantasy Campaign
4) World of Greyhawk, which placed Blackmoor as part of Greyhawk
5) DA1-DA4, which placed Blackmoor as part of the Known World (later Mystara)
6) d20 Dave Arneson's Blackmoor - where is it now?

Take your pick!

Also, your list should probably include the original TSR Empire of the Petal throne box set. It's really just OD&D with a few variations.

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Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:48 pm 
 

There's the "Tomes" group from 2nd edition, unless they fit in somewhere else.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:28 pm 
 

NetRodent wrote:Mystara was the setting of the D&D game and thus dates back to the late 70's or early 80's. It was only named Mystara in 1994 when the world was brought into AD&D.

Thanks for mentioning that.  I always found the name "Mystara" irksome for some reason, and was wondering if it was always called that and I was having yet another memory lapse.  :)

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Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 1:19 am 
 

beyondthebreach wrote:Greyhawk has to be earlier than 1980 as a first appearance? Someone else must be able to answer this.


Depends if you're talking about the first official GH setting product, or the first mention of the campaign name Greyhawk, or the first mention of something that later became/was published as Greyhawk.

First setting was the 1980 Folio.  First mention of the campaign name Greyhawk was probably in "The Gnome Cache" or perhaps in the Domesday Book (which would likely be the first publication of content that later became part of GH).


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Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:09 am 
 

Another missing: Thunder Rift for D&D from about 1992.

Products were:

9259 The Jade Hare
9350 Assault on Raven's Ruin
9357 Thunder Rift
9342 Quest for the Silver Sword
9387 Sword and Shield
9435 Rage of the Rakasta
9436 In the Phantom's Wake
9434 The Knight of Newts

And I think the boxed sets The Dragon's Den, Haunted Tower, the Goblin's Lair & the Zanzer Tem's Dungeon black boxed set are all set there as well.

As BeyondtheBreach has said the Gaz series (1989) form part of the Known World (Mystara) which includes Blackmoor (though Blackmoor was retrospectively set in the Known World).


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Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:16 pm 
 

*small voice from the back attempting to be useful* The mention of the Warcraft setting reminded me... Didn't TSR do a few modules in the Diablo setting, too? And also, where do you all lump Alternity (And the Starcraft setting therein) in the grand scheme of things? Is it completely separate from D&D, or do you just pretend it doesn't exist...;)


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Post Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:08 pm 
 

Here we go, replies to all posts lumped into one!

Greyhawk has to be earlier than 1980 as a first appearance?  Someone else must be able to answer this.


My error.  Just noticed the Greyhawk supplement from 1979 (product #2003).  Not being familiar with this product, does it detail Greyhawk as a setting in itself?

I would say that the Ravenloft Campaign Setting began in 1990.  If you go back to I6 it may be 1983, but I don't think the setting really came about until the the Realm of Terror set in 1990.


I'm going by the first product to detail a setting, or to have the settings name printed in big fat letters on it's cover.  For Ravenloft, I chose the Realm of Terror boxed set from 1990.

I believe that Mystara is what the Known World became when D&D was dropped and it became AD&D instead.


Works for me!

One setting you missed is the Council of Wyrms.   I'm not sure if its part of another more familiar setting or not.


I don't have this boxed set, so I can't check...

There are also the various historical campaign settings: The Glory of Rome, Charlemagne's Paladins, The Crusades, The Vikings, The Age of Heroes, A Mighty Fortress.


I actually hadn't thought about these.  Perhaps I could "create" a setting to put them in?  Maybe 'The Real World'?

Greyhawk should be considered as going back to Gygax's original home campaign setting. I can't remember that exact year he started that. But there are many references to Greyhawk prior to 1980.


Again, when was it detailed and *published* as a setting?

Also, your list should probably include the original TSR Empire of the Petal throne box set. It's really just OD&D with a few variations.


Wasn't aware of this.  Where can I find detailed info (or any, for that matter) on it?

There's the "Tomes" group from 2nd edition, unless they fit in somewhere else.


I saw these, and decided that I'll put them into the Generic setting.  As I don't have any of the 3 products released as a 'Tome', do they list locations relevant to an actual setting?

First setting was the 1980 Folio.  First mention of the campaign name Greyhawk was probably in "The Gnome Cache" or perhaps in the Domesday Book (which would likely be the first publication of content that later became part of GH).[/qoute]

Ah!  The plot thickens!  Or...  The plot thickens  :(  :cry:

[qoute]Another missing: Thunder Rift for D&D from about 1992.


Didn't see this listed on the TSR Archive site (where I got most of my initial info).  Now that I look at 'Thunder Rift' (#9357), I may just put it into 'Generic'...

*small voice from the back attempting to be useful* The mention of the Warcraft setting reminded me... Didn't TSR do a few modules in the Diablo setting, too? And also, where do you all lump Alternity (And the Starcraft setting therein) in the grand scheme of things? Is it completely separate from D&D, or do you just pretend it doesn't exist...


Eep!  Missed Diablo. *smacks forehead*  As for Alternity, does it use the D&D/AD&D (meaning non-D20) rules?  And what about Gamma World (I think that's what it was called.)  It's been a long time since I've seen it, but didn't that use the D&D rules as well?  If so, they might as well get included!

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Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:33 am 
 

First appearance of the Known World is in two locations, but I need to do more research: X1 Isle of Dread and Expert Rulebook 2 (Otus cover) from 1981. Both have sections and maps of Known World. X1 actually does more to define areas (Glantri, Karamiekos, Five Shires, etc.). This later became Mystara and Gaz series.

Hollow World is a sub of Known World/Mystara Setting.

Next to Greyawk, and possibly ahead, I love the Known World/Mystara setting. I have always thought it was solid reflection of the D&D universe.

If you have never checked it out, the Thunderift setting and related materials are great for all you beer and pizza night types.


And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:46 am 
 

zhowar1 wrote:6) d20 Dave Arneson's Blackmoor - where is it now?

From what I've read on various websites Arneson holds that Blackmoor is part of the Known World but because of copy right he's unable to carry over any TSR (Known World) material into his d20 product.

For the historical campaigns, I guess their first appearance would be Legends & Lore. (?)

I found this on another website discussion board:

Oh, and I did some checking over lunch. The first I see of any reference to Threshold is in the 1983 Expert set. It's not even on the map of Karameikos in the 1981 Expert set even though Specularum, Luln, Fort Doom, Wereskalot, an unnamed Gnomish stronghold, and The Haunted Keep are.

The 1983 set was really where the Karameikos as starting point for the PC's took hold. Of the adventures previously released...
B1 was in Greyhawk
B2 was in a generic setting (probably in Greyhawk)
B3 was in a generic setting (although the recalled Orange version was set in Glantri)
B4 was in Ylaruam
X1 positted Specularum as a starting point, but was set on the titular island
X2 was in Glantri
X3 was on the Soderfjord/Ethengar border.

Anyway, the point is, if B2 was set anywhere at the time of its publication, it was Greyhawk. And it certainly wasn't set in D&D's Known World until it was done so retroactively, 8 years after it was published.


So B1 & B2, like Blackmoor were retrospectively set in the Known World (Return to Keep on the Borderlands set it back in Greyhawk).

My guessing is that until the early 80s they felt no need to "set" things in campaign worlds, a lot of things were very generic & thus slot into Greyhawk at that time which wasn't too highly detailed (afterall, neither were some of the modules). It was only in about 83 that they started to think about coming up with several different & unique worlds to set products in.

First mention of Blackmoor in The Domesday Book:

Issue #13 is noted for the very first pre-Dungeons and Dragons-related article ever to appear: by Dave Arneson, no less, entitled, "Facts about Blackmoor", detailing the 'First Fantasy Campaign'.

Table of Contents
*****************
The Storming of Minis Ithil page 3
Facts About Blackmoor page 6
Feudal Kingship page 8
Missives (Letter Column) page 9
Letter from the King page 11
Precedence by Title or Office page 13
Knights Jousting Tourney page 14


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Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:07 pm 
 

Feanor23x wrote:And what about Gamma World (I think that's what it was called.) It's been a long time since I've seen it, but didn't that use the D&D rules as well? If so, they might as well get included!

Don't recall the GW rules too well either (though I have a copy around here somewhere, if you really need someone to check it out), but there are conversion charts for porting to Gamma World and Boot Hill in the original DMs Guide.  I don't know if you or the TSR developers would really consider that reference as meaning they're part of the "D&D Universe" or not.  If not, maybe you extend it to a "D&D Multiverse", perhaps including the "real world"?  *Slaps anyone making a bad MTV joke*  Just my random thoughts.


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Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:26 pm 
 

OK, I did some checking on Council of Wyrms and it's set in a place called Io's Blood Isles. The rest of the world isn't detailed or named and kept vague.


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Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:21 pm 
 

Feanor23x wrote:
Greyhawk should be considered as going back to Gygax's original home campaign setting. I can't remember that exact year he started that. But there are many references to Greyhawk prior to 1980.


Again, when was it detailed and *published* as a setting?

Also, your list should probably include the original TSR Empire of the Petal throne box set. It's really just OD&D with a few variations.


Wasn't aware of this. Where can I find detailed info (or any, for that matter) on it?


The Greyhawk supplement (first published early 1975 - not 1979) does not detail the Greyhawk setting. The World of Greyhawk folio is the first publication to detail the campaign setting.


Empire of the Petal Throne box set is not listed on the Acaeum, probably because it has its own rules set that is not exactly OD&D. But the rules are a variation of OD&D; it was the first detailed campaign setting; and it came in a box set. Here's a thoughtful review:

http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Muse ... eview.html

If Dungeons & Dragons can be said to be the first commercially published role playing game, perhaps EPT can be said to be the second, published a year after D&D. In many ways, EPT was original D&D in a different package. But what a package! While D&D is a generic pseudo-medieval European fantasy game, EPT was specifically designed to be set in the unique and detailed world of Tekumel.

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Post Posted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:49 pm 
 

I think you could build an argument that the first published TSR setting was the City State of the Invincible Overlord publication by Judges Guild.  

   Since this publication's subsequent editions were published with the notation that TSR had "approved" them, it seems they deserve to be listed with regular TSR products.

    The approval was part of a contractual process under which Judges Guild sent the manuscripts to TSR to be approved....probably to make sure that they were not offensive or otherwise harmful to D&D.

    Anyway...because these publications passed through TSR's production offices, they might legitimately be viewed as the first TSR campaign setting....just my two cents.

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:03 pm 
 

Winterwords wrote:For the historical campaigns, I guess their first appearance would be Legends & Lore. (?)


Or perhaps Gods, Demigods & Heroes.

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:42 pm 
 

didnt stormber sell off some greyhawk stuff in that mega-load not so long back? greyhawk stuff from back in 73-74 or something?

maybe grodog can shine some light here cos he watches greyhawk stuff like something i aint never seen :D

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Post Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:38 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:didnt stormber sell off some greyhawk stuff in that mega-load not so long back? greyhawk stuff from back in 73-74 or something?

maybe grodog can shine some light here cos he watches greyhawk stuff like something i aint never seen :D

Al


   Isn't Grodog, like, sort of expected to be obsessive about Greyhawk?

    Do they pay you anything, Grodog, or is it a labor of lust?   :?


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