The Endless Dungeon - A Wee Warrior's Production
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:11 pm 
 

Okay, I've got a subject to open for discussion.  Having recently acquired a copy of "The Endless Dungeon", which I might add I have been trying to find for years, I've now have had the opportunity to peruse it and discovered the following.



On the title page:



Produced by Pete & Judith Kerestan

Copyright January 1975

Distributed Exclusively by TSR Hobbies Inc.



Although still legible, the last line, "Distributed Exclusively by TSR Hobbies Inc." has been crossed out with a permanent marker.



In addition, the following has also been crossed out under the "KIT CONTAINS:" section:



* Condensed Combat Summary Sheet



Also, the kit indicates that there is a Master Hex Sheet, but it's not included.  I'm pretty sure this is complete, based on the condition and the presence of the original ziploc bag.



Anyone else have this item and want to compare/comment?



Any comments on whether this item is/was a TSR hybrid?



Was it ever distributed by TSR?



Should this item be listed on The Acaeum as a TSR distributed item like "Palace of the Vampire Queen" or "Dwarven Glory"?



Guess I'd like to see if anyone has any information on it.



Stats:



(24) One-sided pages consisting of the following:



1. (1)  Cover page

2. (1)  Introductory page

3. (1)  Creature planning Sheet

4. (15) Sheets of dungeon walls (45 walls in all)

5. (6)  1-inch hex dungeon floor sheets

  

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:46 pm 
 

Talk to Vince. I sold him my copy, which was pretty minty. Still in the original bag, though it had been opened. It's rare, but not particularly useful.


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:41 pm 
 

A few differences here…



No crossed out "Condensed Summary Sheet" and no crossed out "Distributed Exclusively by TSR Hobbies Inc."



Image



There are two different reference sheets double sided. One is titled "Character Roll" on one side and "Creature" on the other. The second sheet is titled "Character Roll Call For Quick Reference", and side two "Creature Encounters"



Image



Image





Here's the included Hex Sheet.



Image



The 15 sheets of dungeon walls and 6 1-inch hex dungeon floors are present.



My only guess with the differences are that Endless pre-dates the "Character Archaic" by nine months. The 1st print of the Archaic is dated Sept. 1975. It is also states "Distributed Exclusively by TSR Hobbies Inc.".



So I must have a copy that pre-dates TSR distribution, or one reprinted after selling out of copies with the crossed out "Distributed Exclusively by TSR Hobbies Inc." maybe when TSR stoped doing exclusive Wee Warriors distro?



The other thing that's weird is that Endless states "A Wee Warriors Production" and is dated Jan. 75 but, both the later Archaic (Sept. 75), and the foldered-PotVQ (June 76), do not state "Wee Warriors" anywhere.



Puzzling, but when isn't it. :lol:


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 12:57 am 
 

What makes this dungeon "endless?"


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:19 am 
 

I think they are inferring that you can make "endless dungeons" from the dungeon walls and floor sheets.  Think of it as an early attempt, if not the first attempt, to create a 3-D dungeon.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:32 pm 
 

So, that's no mention of TSR anywhere on your copy, Mike? ;)


=
aside: *adds note to passers-by on thread; Character Archaic + "Distributed by TSR" = post-May '76* *links to thread*

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:56 pm 
 

Bump.  Hopefully info to come.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:27 pm 
 

I received the ED copies in that mixed lot today.

Some interesting differences.  

1.  All copies have the line "condensed combat summary" marked out in black marker under the KIT CONTAINS section.

2.  One complete copy has the "Distributed exclusively by TSR" marked out entirely in black ink.

Image

3.  The second complete copy does not have the "Distributed exclusively by TSR" blacked out, and instead on top of the TSR there is a sticker, almost like a return address sticker, pasted on that has Lou Zocchi, with his Biloxi MS address.

Image

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4.  The last copy is incomplete, missing the cover, reference and the hex sheet and has one of the pages cut up. The content page matches the Lou Zocchi one, with the sticker.

5.  Both complete copies have the double sided reference sheet with one side titled "Character Roll" and the other titled "Creature".

Yet another tinkering by WW!

I'm interested in knowing more on how Lou Zocchi fits in with all this :!:

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:44 pm 
 

Neat information!  Maybe Zocchi bought some of the stock prior to distribution by Wee Warriors?  Or perhaps excess TSR or Wee Warriors stock that he had to subsequently cover up the "Distributed exclusively by TSR" statement?

Here's some information that Pete Kerestan graciously provided to me a while back on The Endless Dungeon.

The Endless Dungeon Questions:

1. What version/edition was this?
2. Where did it fall in your product release sequence? (Before/after Character Archaic etc.)
3. Was this printing ever distributed by TSR?
4. How many were printed?

Pete's response:

On the first question TSR had some payment issues on some items and this broke up our business with them.  They crossed us off as distributed by them after that.  They also were reportedly running off copies but we never found out for sure.  The combat sheet and hex sheet were no doubt dropped on their copies. Both were in our product as sold.

The endless was done after the first printing of the Archaic and at about the same time the 2nd printing was ready.  We had also a 1000 copies printed of the endless as this was the min amount the printer would run.  Hope that helps a little.  I am very surprised to see people collecting something which for me was a fun hobby project back then.  Yours, Pete


I've been meaning to contact him again to hopeful answer some additional questions but haven't, since he was dealing with some health issues at the time.

I think this information does confirm that invincibleoverlord has a Wee Warrior distributed version and mine is a TSR distributed version.  a2jeff's are interesting since they appear to be variants.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:49 pm 
 

Pete wrote:They also were reportedly running off copies but we never found out for sure.


Nah. I have a real old TSR hex sheet (numbered hexes) with a credit to SPI down at the bottom. Then they realized that blank or numbered hexes weren't copyrightable.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:54 pm 
 

Frank, could you elaborate?  I also edited my previous post a little.

a2jeff, could you list out all of the sheets that you have per each copy in a format similar to this?

1. (1)  Cover page

2. (1)  Introductory page

3. (1)  Creature planning Sheet

4. (15) Sheets of dungeon walls (45 walls in all)

5. (6)  1-inch hex dungeon floor sheets

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:35 am 
 

Both complete copies match the contents as described of yours exactly.  

The only clarification I'd add is that my copy of the "Creature planning Sheet" you list is a double sided sheet with one side titled "Character Roll" and the other titled "Creature".

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:27 am 
 

a2jeff wrote:I'm interested in knowing more on how Lou Zocchi fits in with all this :!:


Lou Zocchi set up the first game distributorship business for the rpg market.  I don't recall offhand when that was, but he was at GenCon in 2004, and is likely to be there again this year:  I'm sure someone could ask him :D


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Post Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:15 pm 
 

My copy (weird, I know, that I would have something like this) has the blackened out TSR reference (on the back cover) as well. As far as the other details, I would need to pull it out of the vault to compare, and right now, I do not have access. Will look into it later.


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