Interesting paragraph at the end of S4
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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:22 am 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:The proof's in the pudding. I actually tried to get my kids started on D&D with 3E, and almost killed their natural senses of wonder and creativity in the process, not to mention their budding enthusiasm for the game. We switched over to AD&D (1st edition, the only one), and haven't had time for much else. It's been eerily reminiscent of the way the game took hold of me as a youth. It consumes you. There is simply so much more imagination in it. And the realism Frank mentioned is why you get so attached to your characters in AD&D. Barring a blow to the head, I'll never play 3E at the table again - I'll play it on my pc (NWN), but never on paper.




well you kinda nailed it just right there i think.



i have nothing against 3.5 despite some of the things i say, its just not for me.



my daughter, whom is 15, i think, would generally adapt to anything as she loves RPG games. After playing 1E with me for a while, a friend of hers at school heard about it and invited her to play 3.5. she went once and really didnt like it. her words were something like "it was boring and did my head in - why wasnt it as easy and fun as your game?"



in the end, everyone will make their own choice, depending on what they want from an RPG.



Al



  


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:15 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:3E provides gameplay that gets a lot closer to being balanced than 1st and 2nd Edition versions did. How that is used is up to the DM, and the players. I think if you talk to some folks that actually play the system, you'll find just as many unbalanced encounters. The difference is that the unbalanced in the encounter will be intentional, rather than the result of a DM guessing how strong a given monster is.





Although the CR system is mathematically balanced in 3E, this is only true if the players have the amount of magic that 3E expects the party to have for their required levels.  If the DM gives out magic at less than the generous rates that 3E expects, he is back to a guessing game on encounters(except that the CR is an upper bound for difficulty).

  


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:31 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:The proof's in the pudding. I actually tried to get my kids started on D&D with 3E, and almost killed their natural senses of wonder and creativity in the process, not to mention their budding enthusiasm for the game.




Can't say that I'm surprised - like I said earlier, I'm of the opinion that 3rd Ed is for older gamers, not younger ones. The rules are just too complex. 3rd Ed really goes back to the wargaming roots of the game - combat is extremely tactical, ranges are actually listed in squares (5' per square), etc.



I'm trying to figure out what to give my nephew, who is 11 next weekend, for his birthday, to get him started on D&D. 3.5 won't factor into that at all, except maybe with some of the plastic miniatures. Chances are he's going to inherit some Basic D&D red and blue books ;)



There is simply so much more imagination in it. And the realism Frank mentioned is why you get so attached to your characters in AD&D.




I was thinking about it this morning, and I think that's a big portion of the change - 3.5 explains so much, there's not all that left to wonder about, heh. I was thinking of the point that beyondthebreach made earlier, about the focus shifting from the DM to the players. I think that's spot on - the DM in 1st/2nd was the arbiter and decider of all sorts of rules - if the fighter wanted to tackle the bugbear or shove him off the cliff, the DM had to make something up to allow him to try that. If the goblin was 80' away, prone and behind some rocks, the DM guesstimated what the ranger needed to roll to hit with his bow. In 3rd, that kind of stuff is taken care of by the rules.



Although the CR system is mathematically balanced in 3E, this is only true if the players have the amount of magic that 3E expects the party to have for their required levels.  If the DM gives out magic at less than the generous rates that 3E expects, he is back to a guessing game on encounters(except that the CR is an upper bound for difficulty).




The system is balanced internally (mostly). If you change something signifigant, then obviously the balance is going to go out of whack :)  I find that 3E actually is stingier with powerful magical items. A lot of the "good stuff" is very, very expensive, and completely out of reach until quite high levels. And some stuff just doesn't exist as standard treasure anymore - no more Holy Avengers, for example :(

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:09 pm 
 

As I've stated before, I actually prefer 3.x to the previous editions.



*** (ducking thrown boots and rotten vegetables, here) ***



As in every other edition, you can do whatever you want. Here is my take on it:



*  Combat mechanic is basically reversed - AC10 = AC10, AC0 = AC20, AC-10 = AC30,etc (making it easier to teach to a newbie).

*  Easier saves (dex,wis, and con based). No more trying to figure if the save was a spell effect, or from a rod or breath weapon.

*  Dice rolling - higher is always better - no more "roll under your (insert ability score here) or you're screwed" type rolls.

*  Arcane Magic - While a bit unbalanced (overpowered) for my taste, in your world, mages can be rare or nearly non-existant bookworms that never leave their studies/labs.  (In this case you have to compensate with extra treasure so they can hire an NPC)

*  Priestly Magic - Have your NPC's heal no one not attached to their faith in some way. i.e., the paladin in the group will get healing for a reduced fee from an aligned good church.

*  Everything Else - No one said it better than Gary - "If you don't want to do it in your game, don't. There is no right or wrong way to play. The point is to have a good time."



The last point was me paraphrasing, as my 1e books are out of reach at the moment.





While I love these forums as a second home, I really don't need to see another flame war start on the virtues of one system versus the other. If you're into flaming I suggest that we take it over to En World (or the WOTC boards). These forums are for the collectors - all of us.



Sorry if I missed a point or two, I didn't read the whole thread.

That being said, the posts I did read were flame-free and came from thoughful adults trying to state their viewpoint.



Anyway - Back to the discussion at hand.


Dave, get the barbarian in the corner a drink, quick!

  

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:12 am 
 

I don't see any flame wars coming on this topic.



    I agree that the 3.5 rules change the focus from the DM to the PC's.  However, what it really does is put the burden of the rules on the PC's.  There is very little wiggle room.



    I suspect that in any system it is the imagination and style of the GM that really gives the game flavor or makes it a dud.


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Post Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 10:43 am 
 

Munchkins have been around forever.  I say in a private game, what the hell, who cares how you play.  The only bad part is shame on the DM for grooming a munchkin.



In my last game, there was a ' 9th level Half-Bugbear/Half-elf, War priest, martial artist with 18/00 str, 17+ dex, 17+ con ac -3, thaco 3.  This guy could move 15", could unerringly find traps, had healing, could deal 30 points of damage (w/ a thaco 3 almost unerringly).



He got mad when the DM told him he couldn't wade through a forest with thick underbrush and attack as well, since even though he was 300 pounds, he had tumbling and blind fighting.



He was always in front of the theif, out magiking the mage, out blasting the Paladin.  With him, you didn't need a party, he was the party.



Min-maxer, that is being nice.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 11:35 am 
 

patweb wrote:
In my last game, there was a ' 9th level Half-Bugbear/Half-elf, War priest, martial artist with 18/00 str, 17+ dex, 17+ con ac -3, thaco 3. This guy could move 15", could unerringly find traps, had healing, could deal 30 points of damage (w/ a thaco 3 almost unerringly).




and you call THAT a character??!!  8O  8O  8O  8O



oooooooooook



and this is meant to improve role-playing how? :D



  


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Post Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 12:25 pm 
 

I started logging all of his skills, I have them all written down.  It was much sicker than my description.  Of course, he carried a bastard sword.  Aptly named :).

  


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Post Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 2:51 pm 
 

Patweb, please tell us your last game was when you were 12... right? You've been painfully without a D&D game for a decade or two? Please? :P

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 5:58 pm 
 

Actually, I find there are a lot of aspects I like about 3E, but I honestly miss many things about 1E.



I do admire the fact that with 3E they ironed out alot of the internal contradictions and came up with a much cleaner and unified rules set. It is also a lot more regimented, which I tend to prefer for the most part. Unfortunately, as has been noted, they went and added a bunch of extraneous rules... in my experience, this has caused our play sessions with 3E to bog down significantly as a result, as we are spending many minutes at a time looking up some sort of minutia.



I actually consider 1E to be perhaps better able to handle high level adventurers provided one actually follows the rules to the letter. There are a number of play balance rules that I suspect were not understood and simply ignored (I noticed 2E did away with them altogether) such as weapon vs. armor adjustments and the "Step" function in the To Hit tables that. The latter in particular really keeps things in line since unless you are very high level many of the negative ACs require a natural 20 to hit no matter what kind of magic/strength bonuses you possess.



As a goofy aside, I am actually writing my own D&D rules based on the original set and Dr. Holmes' "Basic" set, that borrows some ideas from AD&D and 3E, along with some of my own, just as an exercise in game design. Won't ever see the light of day, but I find it entertaining.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 12:39 am 
 

I still have pretentions myself, CharlesG.   8)   Maybe your re-write will see the light of day.



    On my first run through a 3rd edition campaign I DM'd a group of Vikings, all adventuring on the same longship.  I tried to sell the system by allowing high character statistics.



    The game was fun, but often silly...and it made it harder for me later when I had to sell my players on the idea that in 3.5, a 12 is a high stat.



    I came up with some rough navigation and Viking Age sailing rules that made for some hilarious moments.  My player characters were still really low level when the winds forced them to buzz through the straits around the "Island of the Main Campaign Badguys," running before storm winds.



    Then, the winds changed and drove them back through the same straits again   8O   My players successfully argued that, "They'll NEVER expect us to try it TWICE!"    :o  :lol:



    Anyway, it has been good fun arguing about all of this.... :lol:  :lol:


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