Interesting paragraph at the end of S4
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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:23 pm 
 

It's interesting how some folks feel the need to use extreme hyperbole to make a 'point'. Deadlord, it's unfortunate that you can't make your argument without the kind of garbage the "17 and under crowd" likes to sling around. How you choose to use the rules is up to you and your gaming group. Sorry to see you don't see the advantage in having a reasonably-balanced set of rules that encompass even the more bizarre aspects of our hobby.



Personally, I'd say 3E is designed for the older gamers. The rules are far, far more complicated, and there's no way in heck I could have started 3E as early as I started 2nd Edition. I plowed in when I was 10 with AD&D, and there's no way in heck I could have figured out the more complicated aspects of the 3E game at 15. Myself and the guys I play with, all above-average intelligence folks, still cramp our brains figuring out minutae of the rules  :P



The reason I pointed out that quote however, was more to illustrate how the "perspective" of D&D has changed.




Definately agree with you there. The "feel" of 3E is very different. Personally, I wish they'd used more of the original artists. I think that'd have done a service to the game :)



Essentially, the focus is on character creation and excelling in power and abilities. The center stage has been taken away from DMing and giving to the PCs.




That I definately agree with. I DM one game, and play in another game, and I have to say - I like the change. There's 4-6 players in most groups, and only 1 DM. As a DM, I'm telling a story for the players, not to the players. I enjoy having the rules and the progression focus more on their choices, and less on mine. You're completely right though, that is definately a seismic shift in perspective.



Somehow, it is that perspective that has been lost to some degree




I disagree with that though. That perspective is still there, but it's delayed until higher levels. A 10th level character in 2nd Edition is a very powerful figure indeed - in 3rd Edition, it's the same way, but not until 15th-20th level. By the time you're hitting level 20, you can go toe-to-toe with Pit Fiends and even moderate-tough dragons. At 10th level, you're far tougher than most folks out there, but there's still a pretty good chunk of the Monster Manual that considers you a light snack ;)



Keep in mind that D&D originally progressed to level 36 - and to godhood. 3E is actually a step back in that regard.

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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:24 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Our DM quite simply played Lloth wrong. Very, very wrong.




MerricB over on Canonfire! has sussed out some interesting secrets of D3 and Q1:  Lolth was basically a patsie for the Eilservs clan's activities, and if the PCs do in fact manage to defeat her, they've only further empowered the real threat in the modules, the Eilservs and their Elder Elemental God.  Check out Canonfire! - Upon the True History of the Drow/Giant Incursion for some eye-opening reading :D


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:32 pm 
 

grodog wrote:
deimos3428 wrote:Our DM quite simply played Lloth wrong. Very, very wrong.




MerricB over on Canonfire! has sussed out some interesting secrets of D3 and Q1: Lolth was basically a patsie for the Eilservs clan's activities, and if the PCs do in fact manage to defeat her, they've only further empowered the real threat in the modules, the Eilservs and their Elder Elemental God. Check out Canonfire! - Upon the True History of the Drow/Giant Incursion for some eye-opening reading :D




Huh, very interesting. Doubly so, coming from MerricB (he runs the best info resource on the web regarding the plastic D&D miniatures).



I kept reading EEG as EGG though, which although confusing, actually makes that article a lot more entertaining :P

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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:35 pm 
 

Only semi-relatedly, one of the many complaints about level inflation in 3e is that you get to higher levels more quickly (I'm one of those complainers, in general, too).  That said, 3e does give you more tools to challenge higher-level PCs too, although the rules still break down when you're in the near-Epic and Epic zones of play.  



For some excellent game fiction based on 3e high-level play with wonderful 1e sensibilities (Graz'zt-backed conflict forms the backdrop for the PCs' activities), read Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre story hour over on ENWorld.  His fiction is fabulous, on par with George R. R. Martin and approaches the realms of Michael Moorcock's work.  Great stuff:



Tales of Wyre



Sep's work shows me that it is definitely possible to make 3e work well.  It also shows that it may take someone with more time and effort available than I have to make the rules work that well at high levels :D


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:55 pm 
 

grodog wrote:That said, 3e does give you more tools to challenge higher-level PCs too, although the rules still break down when you're in the near-Epic and Epic zones of play.




Agreed and agreed. But, in all fairness, AD&D doesn't do well at high levels either, nor does any other system I've played. ;)



For some excellent game fiction based on 3e high-level play with wonderful 1e sensibilities (Graz'zt-backed conflict forms the backdrop for the PCs' activities), read Sepulchrave's Tales of Wyre story hour over on ENWorld. His fiction is fabulous, on par with George R. R. Martin and approaches the realms of Michael Moorcock's work. Great stuff:




Great link. This is great so far :)



""And this ‘Rurunoth' -- he is a Type VI demon," Eadric ventured.

"That phraseology is somewhat antiquated, but yes, more or less.""



:lol:

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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:14 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote: without getting the players handbook out, i thought you have 3 attacks in 2 rounds from 7th onwards and 2 attacks per round after 14th?




    If you had weapon specialization you not only got bonuses to hit and damage...you also moved up the weapon swings/round table by about seven levels.  Thus, as soon as you specialized you got 3/2 and when you reached 7th you got 2/1.



  Swack!  Swack!  Even an ancient huge red dragon was doomed against 9th level characters.



    After 9th level, most classes got only slightly better "to hit" and gained spells that were mostly variations on the lower level spells.  



    Some of the higher level spells were quite effective, except that even the monsters would start to get good enough saving throws by that level.



    Anyway....probably had a lot more to do with style and preference...and the fiendishly clever people I gamed with.   8)


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:20 pm 
 

zhowar1 wrote:
killjoy32 wrote:
hey frank...whats the item called in its entirety...as i wouldnt mind a look at that....




Frank is referring to the Basic-Expert-Companion-Masters-Immortals Sets; he was editor and/or writer.




 Ah!  Yes!  The tougher dragons in D&D was one of the best things about that version of the game.    :)


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:35 pm 
 

I think that it was the free form nature of AD&D that attracted many people of like personality.  (This discussion strand is one example of that phenomenon.)



    The rules were a framework which the players and the DM compromised, argued, bitched and agreed to disagree over...or stormed out.



    3.5 is so rules-heavy that essentially every word is a specific and definable technical term.  It takes a lot longer to start and finish a fight...but we also have a lot fewer arguments because most of the rules are very clear.  ("I rolled a 20 so you guys can just.....")



    As for the video game influence on 3.5.....the D&D combat system was never really meant to reflect reality.  The point of the combat rules was to simulate fantasy combat in which mere mortals defeat huge monsters.  The system has always more closely approximated what happens in professional wrestling than any sort of realistic combat.



    We older gamers have long despised younger gamers and their game antics...just as they come to feel superior to their juniors.  That has been another less admirable trait of the geek-o-cracy that is gaming.


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:04 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:another less admirable trait of the geek-o-cracy that is gaming.




Geek-o-cracy?  Sounds more like a dorktatorship to me.  :lol:

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:53 am 
 

KingOfPain wrote:
MShipley88 wrote:another less admirable trait of the geek-o-cracy that is gaming.


Geek-o-cracy? Sounds more like a dorktatorship to me. :lol:


     :lol:   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:

    I wish I had thought of that one.    :lol:  :lol:


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:53 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:3.5 is so rules-heavy that essentially every word is a specific and definable technical term. It takes a lot longer to start and finish a fight...but we also have a lot fewer arguments because most of the rules are very clear. ("I rolled a 20 so you guys can just.....")




Amen and all praise to Our Lord Vecna for that. There really isn't much "wiggle room" in 3.5, and the rules are almost always internally consistant.



The system has always more closely approximated what happens in professional wrestling than any sort of realistic combat.




As soon as I stop laughing, I'll try to work up some outrage at D&D being compared with wrestling :lol:



Geek-o-cracy?  Sounds more like a dorktatorship to me.




Maybe it's the pain meds I'm on (broken collarbone, whee!), but I have every intention of stealing 'dorktatorship' for my next campaign rules summary :P

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:36 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:3.5 is so rules-heavy that essentially every word is a specific and definable technical term. It takes a lot longer to start and finish a fight...but we also have a lot fewer arguments because most of the rules are very clear. ("I rolled a 20 so you guys can just.....")




sorry guys. if you like 3.5 then fair enough, each to their own, but the rules for it very much remind me of runequest and precisely why i didnt play it more than the one time. my head was so battered after one combat i just totally gave up.



i like my games nice and simple. 1E suits me perfectly from that perspective. i am very fair, i hardly use rules, more common sense and i never have an argument. the combats we have, i am told "absolutely rock" quoting my daughter there. i run the combats really fast to add the element of real-time to it and everyone loves it that way.



i have no problems making a game "more real" but the more rules there are, slows the game down and actually spoils it imo.



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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 4:49 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:i like my games nice and simple. 1E suits me perfectly from that perspective. i am very fair, i hardly use rules, more common sense and i never have an argument. the combats we have, i am told "absolutely rock" quoting my daughter there. i run the combats really fast to add the element of real-time to it and everyone loves it that way.



i have no problems making a game "more real" but the more rules there are, slows the game down and actually spoils it imo.



Al




Feel like a holiday in Australia?  I am looking for a gaming group.  :wink:

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:34 am 
 

well i tell ya mike, am still trying to get to Oz. been trying to get there for the past 5 years..... if i do, i will be sure to bring some AD&D books :D



mind you, i see us getting carried away looking at your cool stuff other than actually playing a game :D



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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:34 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:As for the video game influence on 3.5.....the D&D combat system was never really meant to reflect reality. The point of the combat rules was to simulate fantasy combat in which mere mortals defeat huge monsters. The system has always more closely approximated what happens in professional wrestling than any sort of realistic combat.


You make a solid point there, about the combat system never being realistic.  I have spent quite a great deal of time working on a "realistic" combat system, and the basic tenets of such a system are as follows:



#1.  Combat is invariably deadly.

#2.  Avoid combat at all costs.



The fact remains that d20 pulled D&D in precisely the wrong direction -- combat is far more complex, far less deadly, and not at all undesirable.

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:09 am 
 

The proof's in the pudding. I actually tried to get my kids started on D&D with 3E, and almost killed their natural senses of wonder and creativity in the process, not to mention their budding enthusiasm for the game. We switched over to AD&D (1st edition, the only one), and haven't had time for much else. It's been eerily reminiscent of the way the game took hold of me as a youth. It consumes you. There is simply so much more imagination in it. And the realism Frank mentioned is why you get so attached to your characters in AD&D. Barring a blow to the head, I'll never play 3E at the table again - I'll play it on my pc (NWN), but never on paper.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 10:22 am 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:The proof's in the pudding. I actually tried to get my kids started on D&D with 3E, and almost killed their natural senses of wonder and creativity in the process, not to mention their budding enthusiasm for the game. We switched over to AD&D (1st edition, the only one), and haven't had time for much else. It's been eerily reminiscent of the way the game took hold of me as a youth. It consumes you. There is simply so much more imagination in it. And the realism Frank mentioned is why you get so attached to your characters in AD&D. Barring a blow to the head, I'll never play 3E at the table again - I'll play it on my pc (NWN), but never on paper.




well you kinda nailed it just right there i think.



i have nothing against 3.5 despite some of the things i say, its just not for me.



my daughter, whom is 15, i think, would generally adapt to anything as she loves RPG games. After playing 1E with me for a while, a friend of hers at school heard about it and invited her to play 3.5. she went once and really didnt like it. her words were something like "it was boring and did my head in - why wasnt it as easy and fun as your game?"



in the end, everyone will make their own choice, depending on what they want from an RPG.



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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:15 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:3E provides gameplay that gets a lot closer to being balanced than 1st and 2nd Edition versions did. How that is used is up to the DM, and the players. I think if you talk to some folks that actually play the system, you'll find just as many unbalanced encounters. The difference is that the unbalanced in the encounter will be intentional, rather than the result of a DM guessing how strong a given monster is.





Although the CR system is mathematically balanced in 3E, this is only true if the players have the amount of magic that 3E expects the party to have for their required levels.  If the DM gives out magic at less than the generous rates that 3E expects, he is back to a guessing game on encounters(except that the CR is an upper bound for difficulty).

  


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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:31 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:The proof's in the pudding. I actually tried to get my kids started on D&D with 3E, and almost killed their natural senses of wonder and creativity in the process, not to mention their budding enthusiasm for the game.




Can't say that I'm surprised - like I said earlier, I'm of the opinion that 3rd Ed is for older gamers, not younger ones. The rules are just too complex. 3rd Ed really goes back to the wargaming roots of the game - combat is extremely tactical, ranges are actually listed in squares (5' per square), etc.



I'm trying to figure out what to give my nephew, who is 11 next weekend, for his birthday, to get him started on D&D. 3.5 won't factor into that at all, except maybe with some of the plastic miniatures. Chances are he's going to inherit some Basic D&D red and blue books ;)



There is simply so much more imagination in it. And the realism Frank mentioned is why you get so attached to your characters in AD&D.




I was thinking about it this morning, and I think that's a big portion of the change - 3.5 explains so much, there's not all that left to wonder about, heh. I was thinking of the point that beyondthebreach made earlier, about the focus shifting from the DM to the players. I think that's spot on - the DM in 1st/2nd was the arbiter and decider of all sorts of rules - if the fighter wanted to tackle the bugbear or shove him off the cliff, the DM had to make something up to allow him to try that. If the goblin was 80' away, prone and behind some rocks, the DM guesstimated what the ranger needed to roll to hit with his bow. In 3rd, that kind of stuff is taken care of by the rules.



Although the CR system is mathematically balanced in 3E, this is only true if the players have the amount of magic that 3E expects the party to have for their required levels.  If the DM gives out magic at less than the generous rates that 3E expects, he is back to a guessing game on encounters(except that the CR is an upper bound for difficulty).




The system is balanced internally (mostly). If you change something signifigant, then obviously the balance is going to go out of whack :)  I find that 3E actually is stingier with powerful magical items. A lot of the "good stuff" is very, very expensive, and completely out of reach until quite high levels. And some stuff just doesn't exist as standard treasure anymore - no more Holy Avengers, for example :(

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Post Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:09 pm 
 

As I've stated before, I actually prefer 3.x to the previous editions.



*** (ducking thrown boots and rotten vegetables, here) ***



As in every other edition, you can do whatever you want. Here is my take on it:



*  Combat mechanic is basically reversed - AC10 = AC10, AC0 = AC20, AC-10 = AC30,etc (making it easier to teach to a newbie).

*  Easier saves (dex,wis, and con based). No more trying to figure if the save was a spell effect, or from a rod or breath weapon.

*  Dice rolling - higher is always better - no more "roll under your (insert ability score here) or you're screwed" type rolls.

*  Arcane Magic - While a bit unbalanced (overpowered) for my taste, in your world, mages can be rare or nearly non-existant bookworms that never leave their studies/labs.  (In this case you have to compensate with extra treasure so they can hire an NPC)

*  Priestly Magic - Have your NPC's heal no one not attached to their faith in some way. i.e., the paladin in the group will get healing for a reduced fee from an aligned good church.

*  Everything Else - No one said it better than Gary - "If you don't want to do it in your game, don't. There is no right or wrong way to play. The point is to have a good time."



The last point was me paraphrasing, as my 1e books are out of reach at the moment.





While I love these forums as a second home, I really don't need to see another flame war start on the virtues of one system versus the other. If you're into flaming I suggest that we take it over to En World (or the WOTC boards). These forums are for the collectors - all of us.



Sorry if I missed a point or two, I didn't read the whole thread.

That being said, the posts I did read were flame-free and came from thoughful adults trying to state their viewpoint.



Anyway - Back to the discussion at hand.


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