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Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:09 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:Mental Note: Walk to GenCon 2006 if John is flying.


:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:47 pm 
 

Dang!  I wanna hear that one!   :(


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:41 pm 
 

I started out with the intent of replacing my worn AD&D books.I never even knew of the existence of woodgrains or even white boxes before I started hanging around The Acaeum. Now I want some. You're all a bad influence.



20 years in the future when the children of the 3.5e era begin building their nests of all things Dungeons and Dragons, I am certain that there will be plenty of willing buyers for woodgrains and OCEs.



But will they want Jade Hares or ST1s?

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:46 pm 
 

ifearyeti wrote:I started out with the intent of replacing my worn AD&D books.I never even knew of the existence of woodgrains or even white boxes before I started hanging around The Acaeum. Now I want some. You're all a bad influence.



20 years in the future when the children of the 3.5e era begin building their nests of all things Dungeons and Dragons, I am certain that there will be plenty of willing buyers for woodgrains and OCEs.



But will they want Jade Hares or ST1s?


I'll be happy if we manage to get all the printings sorted out by then!  :lol:

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:15 am 
 

ifearyeti wrote:I started out with the intent of replacing my worn AD&D books.I never even knew of the existence of woodgrains or even white boxes before I started hanging around The Acaeum. Now I want some. You're all a bad influence.



20 years in the future when the children of the 3.5e era begin building their nests of all things Dungeons and Dragons, I am certain that there will be plenty of willing buyers for woodgrains and OCEs.



But will they want Jade Hares or ST1s?




Good point.  Why should the prices go down as the next generation start collecting?  Unless 3.5 and d20 and whatever comes next ??? are really as bad as you all let on, in which case they won't start collecting!

Collectors will only start collecting if what they know is any good.  Once they find out about older stuff, they are going to be interested, particularly if its found to be better.



I'm with ifearyeti on this one.  I'd never heard of OD&D, let alone seen it, (I started out in about 82 or 83!), until I started reading here.  As a result, I've recently bought an OCE, Greyhawk, would like to get the other supplements and would love to get my hands on some of the really old rare modules.



From the little I've seen, the AD&D stuff is much more readable, playable etc., but hey, reading these early WD I've bought, the whole start of this hobby is truely fascinating (and quite frankly hilarious - some of these articles on "Monstermark" etc. have me in stitches).  I want more - I can't be alone.  



The only thing that can stop it, is the death of RPGs (is that going to happen?).  I know of at least a dozen kids who play regulalarly at my school - and as in my day, these are only the ones who own up to it!!!  Lets face it, D&D was never cool at school, but although much smaller now as a hobby, is it really going to die?

  

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:46 am 
 

jonjhargreaves wrote:
ifearyeti wrote:I started out with the intent of replacing my worn AD&D books.I never even knew of the existence of woodgrains or even white boxes before I started hanging around The Acaeum. Now I want some. You're all a bad influence.



20 years in the future when the children of the 3.5e era begin building their nests of all things Dungeons and Dragons, I am certain that there will be plenty of willing buyers for woodgrains and OCEs.



But will they want Jade Hares or ST1s?




Good point. Why should the prices go down as the next generation start collecting? Unless 3.5 and d20 and whatever comes next ??? are really as bad as you all let on, in which case they won't start collecting!

Collectors will only start collecting if what they know is any good. Once they find out about older stuff, they are going to be interested, particularly if its found to be better.



I'm with ifearyeti on this one. I'd never heard of OD&D, let alone seen it, (I started out in about 82 or 83!), until I started reading here. As a result, I've recently bought an OCE, Greyhawk, would like to get the other supplements and would love to get my hands on some of the really old rare modules.



From the little I've seen, the AD&D stuff is much more readable, playable etc., but hey, reading these early WD I've bought, the whole start of this hobby is truely fascinating (and quite frankly hilarious - some of these articles on "Monstermark" etc. have me in stitches). I want more - I can't be alone.



The only thing that can stop it, is the death of RPGs (is that going to happen?). I know of at least a dozen kids who play regulalarly at my school - and as in my day, these are only the ones who own up to it!!! Lets face it, D&D was never cool at school, but although much smaller now as a hobby, is it really going to die?




People are already collecting D20 stuff!  Try and get a complete collection of Dungeon crawl classics, Witchfire books and possibly a few others.  People in general like to collect, that is how Ebay got started (with Pez)!


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 10:28 am 
 

jonjhargreaves wrote:...truely fascinating (and quite frankly hilarious - some of these articles on "Monstermark" etc. have me in stitches)...


First time I've heard the Monstermark system desribed as hilarious 8O



No offence to Don Turnbull, but "mind numbingly boring" or "effectively useless" (except perhaps for the insomniacs out there) would be my choice of words :wink:

  

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 1:07 pm 
 

johnhuck wrote:No offence to Don Turnbull, but




I doubt that he'll mind; he passed away a couple o' years ago.



Don and I never got along very well...  :?

  


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:41 pm 
 

johnhuck wrote:
First time I've heard the Monstermark system desribed as hilarious 8O



No offence to Don Turnbull, but "mind numbingly boring" or "effectively useless" (except perhaps for the insomniacs out there) would be my choice of words :wink:




Couldn't agree with you more John.  But, that WD ever became what it was with that kind of article, (clearly what the gamers wanted) is a real eye opener.  The first couple of years are just full of new "improved" systems that would have put me off the game for life.



I just found the whole tone "hilarious" and clearly a product of its time.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:54 pm 
 

jonjhargreaves wrote:
From the little I've seen, the AD&D stuff is much more readable, playable etc.,




On the contrary, a good chunk of the 3.5 stuff is more readable and playable. There's a ton of great 1st/2nd Edition stuff, but you won't find stuff from 3rd that is a map with a lot of square rooms, and few descriptions. Comparing storylines and such, I think 1st/2nd has the edge, since products tended to be bigger back then, and thus you've got more room for non-game-mechanics. But for adventure playability, I'll take 3.5 stuff anyday ;)  Running a letter series adventure right from the module would involve a lot of on-your-feet thinking up of room descriptions, with some modules, coming up with entire areas on the fly. That was eliminated in 3rd, with the de facto standard being to have full text-box descriptions for each area.



Honestly, I hope I'm wrong about older D&D stuff not being collectible by the time I'm an old curmudgeon. It'd be nice to see the roots of our hobby being treated with respect. But, I just don't see it continuing as strongly as folks that were around for the start of the hobby start retiring and kicking the proverbial bucket.

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:14 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:Running a letter series adventure right from the module would involve a lot of on-your-feet thinking up of room descriptions, with some modules, coming up with entire areas on the fly. That was eliminated in 3rd, with the de facto standard being to have full text-box descriptions for each area.




Just about every 1st edition module that I own has an area descritption for almost every area.   :?  Granted it doesnt there include a books worth of material, but then again that is why I much prefer it.


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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:31 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
Just about every 1st edition module that I own has an area descritption for almost every area.  :? Granted it doesnt there include a books worth of material, but then again that is why I much prefer it.




I grabbed a handful of the letter series books from my shelf to check.



A2 has full descriptions, and I'd say is probably better than most 3rd modules in most regards.

C5 has very few descriptions. Brief notes about what you'll find in the area, but you'll be making up the details on the spot.

I8 has very few descriptions. Lots and lots of areas with almost no details provided :(

Q1 has very few descriptions. Lots of good details about what you'll find, but again, you'll be making up details and coming up with "boxed" text on the fly.

S4 has most areas described. Info on all, but many areas where the info provided is just the monsters there and what they do.



1.5 outta 5, as a random sampling. I'm sure some folks would prefer not to be spoon-fed boxed text, but for my group, I'd rather have detail about an area than have to make it up (and then try to remember it) as I go along. It's a lot harder to come up with innocuous details on the fly than it is interesting monster encounters, imo ;)

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:33 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:


Q1 has very few descriptions. Lots of good details about what you'll find, but again, you'll be making up details and coming up with "boxed" text on the fly.





this is why i like judges guild stuff so much. gives you the bare essentials then you, the DM, makes it a good game by making the scenario out of the detail given.



i played Q1 three times in all, with three different DM's and i DM'd it once myself. every game was different, yet all the details were the same.



THAT is why i like it. cos everything is interpreted by the individual, instead of the "spoon fed" stuff that most of the new stuff is.



for me, there never will be a comparison, the old stuff will always beat it hands down.



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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:41 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
THAT is why i like it. cos everything is interpreted by the individual, instead of the "spoon fed" stuff that most of the new stuff is.



for me, there never will be a comparison, the old stuff will always beat it hands down.



Al




To each their own, for sure :)  Personally, I prefer to do entirely custom adventures. I've used modules in the past, and found that they very rarely account for the crazy crap my player's get up to, heh. Then again, I can't stand the "monster-in-a-room-guarding-a-chest" syndrome that was popular back then. Most of the adventures I run are plot-driven, rather than area-driven. Not a lot of hacking through dungeons in my games (although enough to keep the bloodier-minded players happy :lol:)

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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:29 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:
To each their own, for sure :) Personally, I prefer to do entirely custom adventures. I've used modules in the past, and found that they very rarely account for the crazy crap my player's get up to, heh. Then again, I can't stand the "monster-in-a-room-guarding-a-chest" syndrome that was popular back then. Most of the adventures I run are plot-driven, rather than area-driven. Not a lot of hacking through dungeons in my games (although enough to keep the bloodier-minded players happy :lol:)




hehehehe :)



mind you, when i DM'd Q1, i swapped everything around, so nobody playing could figure out wtf was going on (and they had all played the previous 3 times)....was fun and then some watching them walk straight into things when they "knew" it would be ok :D



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Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:34 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
GraysonAC wrote:Running a letter series adventure right from the module would involve a lot of on-your-feet thinking up of room descriptions, with some modules, coming up with entire areas on the fly. That was eliminated in 3rd, with the de facto standard being to have full text-box descriptions for each area.




Just about every 1st edition module that I own has an area descritption for almost every area.  :? Granted it doesnt there include a books worth of material, but then again that is why I much prefer it.




   "Almost" every area.  I always have wondered why a writer would include a room with no description.  :cry:  



   "37 - This room is empty.  There is nothing of interest here."  :evil:



   Too true...nothing of interest at all.  Why not invent something to find in that room, even if it is only grafitti?  :x



    Judges Guild modules were often incomplete or childish...which...perversely...is why I like them.   :twisted:   They were not afraid to try new ideas and seem to have pushed ideas through faster than TSR.  Of course, that may be why some of their modules are astoundingly empty...and why a module like Demons of Dundurn seems to have had a page or two left out.   :?



    I find newer modules to be too restrictive in setting.  Instead of just giving me a few great maps (which are not that much harder to draw than bad maps) and a storyline, the writer too often wants to trap me in his world.  Major story components are too closely tied to a particular fantasy setting.  I have to somehow explain how an entire elven civilization rose and fell 3000 years ago, and why everyone now needs the fabled _______ of _______ in order to save the world.  Could I just have a pissed off ogre instead?  How about G-1?  Oh yeah!   8)


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:07 am 
 

With regards to whether or not people will be collecting stuff 20 or 50 years from now....



I'm sure they will, and I'm sure that the real 'classics' of the genre will command huge prices (OD&D, the modules I can only dream of ever finding in a pile somewhere 'cause I'll never be willing to buy them, etc). Whether the more run of the mill modules will hold any value is more questionable, simply because there are more of them around then there are collectors and the supply is not shrinking much, imho.



And I'm sure that some of the new stuff will become equally rare. What will be seen as the 'classics' of the future, I don't know. Maybe 3.0 will be looked back upon with the same nostalgia as the OD&D stuff. Maybe WoTC will move completely away from FR/ Greyhawk and 30 years from now anything written for those settings will be fondly remembered and collected. Personally, I'm just gonna buy the books I like and try to take better care of them then I did the stuff I bought back in the '70s. :)



(Ironically, when I was selling stuff last year, the items which sold for the most money were those I didn't have any use for - simply because they got tossed in a box and left for a couple decades. Much of it stuff I got at one Gen Con auction or another (back in the day) as part of a 'bundle' bought for something else in the pile altogether. Incidentally, this includes any TSR modules I came across, simply because I always used my own stuff. On the other hand, this also meant that I didn't have very many of those modules. )



It also meant that I preferred 'game aids' that tried to spur my own imagination rather then substituting for that imagination. But that is just me - which often meant JG stuff.... But I did buy a copy of the Eberron with the misprinted/bound pages just on the off chance that it becomes valuable in a few decades. Especially since it actually cost me less (on Ebay of course) to buy it then a 'proper' Eberron Campaign setting would have....



Carl

  


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 2:28 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:
"Almost" every area. I always have wondered why a writer would include a room with no description. :cry:



"37 - This room is empty. There is nothing of interest here." :evil:



Too true...nothing of interest at all. Why not invent something to find in that room, even if it is only grafitti? :x




Too true. I just mapped out an entire temple today, and remembered to include the mundane stuff like bathrooms. A lot of the modules that I've read don't seem to include that stuff, which I always found frustrating. I always ask "What are they eating, and where is it going when they're done?" :P



I find newer modules to be too restrictive in setting. Instead of just giving me a few great maps (which are not that much harder to draw than bad maps) and a storyline, the writer too often wants to trap me in his world. Major story components are too closely tied to a particular fantasy setting.




Even more "too true". A lot of the 3rd party publishers fall into that trap, and I think it kills their business - most DM's use Greyhawk, FR, or their own settings. The odds of someone wanting to use some other DM's setting is pretty darn slim, and it's a lot of work to convert many of them :(

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Post Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:02 am 
 

GraysonAC wrote:"What are they eating, and where is it going when they're done?" :P


I can imagine the delight of DMs.  "You've just opened the door to the only toilet in G3.  Everyone needs to make a system shock roll." :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 5:26 am 
 

ExTSR wrote:
johnhuck wrote:No offence to Don Turnbull, but




I doubt that he'll mind; he passed away a couple o' years ago.



Don and I never got along very well... :?


Ooops!  :oops:



If I were a politician, I would now say that the Monstermark system was one of the greatest overlooked contributions to D&D.  But I'm not.



I think Don is remembered for his collaboration on U1/2/3.  A fantastic set of modules.

  
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