Copied Temple of Elemental Evil
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Post Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:23 am 
 

Anyone know the buyer?


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:37 am 
 

8O I guess we were all off the mark.  To the winner, enjoy!


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:39 pm 
 

yaya wrote:Copy of TOEE went for $900. Frank stated during the auction that he would promise not to make a copy for two years. He also stated his intention is to never make another copy again. He did mention that he might make an exception to that for the Legends of Gaming museum, but that would be the only exception.



Mark




He is actually going to send the original manuscript to the Legends of Gaming museum.  I questioned him about selling this copy and he assured me he did not need the cash and will probably never make another copy.  I guess we will see.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:10 pm 
 

Well, I would love to get a copy of that copy (or of the original), to be able to do some deep-delving GH research on differences between T1, T1-4, and EGG's original T1-4 manuscript.  There's a LOT of background information that's interwoven, changes, added, deleted, etc. in the published T1-4 content that could hopefully be clarified with access to the original ms.


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:14 pm 
 

Who's this Legends of Gaming museum---IO? or someone else? Is it this: http://rdushay.home.mindspring.com/Museum/Index.html


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 12:44 pm 
 

Allan,



It's not me (us), but I have been to this website in the past. I know the link was posted on the forum by myself and others. Anyway, its cool someone else has decided to preserve the glory days as well and let the public enjoy. I'm really hoping to have pics of our new hangout up within a week or so. We're actually here wiring up the place right now, and just got all the new computers working and we're here enjoying watching the animated Return of the King as we work along. These old cartoon versions (The Hobbit as well) always bring a tear to my eye and remind us of our youth. Again I'll post pics ASAP…



BTW, you'd think He/She/They? Of this "Legends of Gaming Museum" would post on this forum. Please, you must be lurking…come forward! :D


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:05 pm 
 

Legends of Gaming is a charity set up by former TSR employees(Harold Johnson, Jeff Easley, etc..) after the passing of David Sutherland. Hopefully Frank Mentzer will post hear about it soon. The charity auction at GenCon raised money on LOG's behalf.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 5:36 pm 
 

Thanks for the info, IO and brothers Burnt.  Perhaps I'll be able to peruse this ms. one day after all :D


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Post Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:27 pm 
 

Heya awl. Yah, ToEE copy for $900. Every little bit helps.



For those who were trying to get me during the con, I am truly and very sorry -- I missed about a dozen cell calls. ::sigh:: The stupid phone developed a habit of turning its ringer off. Argh etc.



I don't need the money really; I own a business with 2 locations and 20 employees. Correct, the point was to get a copy into public hands. Give it away? Hrmph -- capitalism is too strong a force. And I stand by my assessment of the copyright/legal situation.



I'm not making 'more copies'. Period. To those who held off from bidding, thinking that I was being mercenary or something and that this 'smelled funny' -- bluntly, you either don't know anything about me (I have a 20+ year reputation for solid ethics) OR you know that but don't trust me anyhow. If the latter, think up your favorite derogatory response and eat it. Raw.



The most exciting news I've heard in more than a decade went down within the last 2 weeks. Harold Johnson managed to set up the 501(c), the registered approved fully legit not-for-profit, based in Lake Geneva. I kept telling him that (being as straight & stiff as I am) I couldn't solicit anything for him unless he nailed it tight. So he did, and it made it just under the wire (approved 15 August at 10:51 am) so we brought in thousands for Dave's Scholarship Fund (re Sutherland) for artists heading into the game industry. But Legends of Gaming, the 501 corp, is gonna be a lot more than that. I'm gonna get behind it and push.



One way it COULD expand is with a Legends of Gaming archive. The name I'm proposing (to the Board of Directors of LoG) is NAGA -- the North American Gaming Archive -- since the corp is broader in scope than just Hobby gaming. I personally own over 6,000 boardgame titles (many rares, some Sid Sacksons) that I'm ready to donate formally, as well as various original and/or early manuscripts -- like the ToEE original -- that I want to be preserved and not fought over. (Wills and Probate often end up in court; when you try to fight a museum covered by a 501, the state's on your side, and often the Feds too.)



Bottom line, the legal architecture is finally in place, at least for a starter. Lots more to do, and this is only the foundation of what's to become a big structure, imho. Betcha 100 to 1 that Gary and Dave will both be donating original notes etc... and I know some execs over on the Hasbro side who have been wondering for years what to do with their archival copies of Milton Bradley, Parker Brothers, and other brand games... I think the sky's the limit. The catch is that it'll take money to properly store and preserve this stuff. We're not screwing around here; this has to be a pro operation, not stuff in boxes in somebody's basement.



So all you gamers out there, consider: Give Some Back. Gaming has been good for all of us. And right now, at the beginning of all this, is when we need money to get things moving. This November or December, send a check (made out to "Legends of Gaming") for whatever amount your accountant recommends :wink: as a fully tax-deductible contribution to the corporate Treasurer, at:



Legends of Gaming

c/o Harold J. Johnson, Treasurer

315 Haskins Street

Lake Geneva, WI 53147



One last thing. I forgot to say please. PLEASE consider it seriously. If you can spare something, please do. PLEASE. And spread the word. PRETTY PLEASE with Dice on top. Harold writes thank-you notes (very unlike most charity affairs); those alone may soon become sellable collectibles.



::chuckle::



Got questions? I'm at [email protected]



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Post Posted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:20 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:
So all you gamers out there, consider: Give Some Back. Gaming has been good for all of us. And right now, at the beginning of all this, is when we need money to get things moving. This November or December, send a check (made out to "Legends of Gaming") for whatever amount your accountant recommends :wink: as a fully tax-deductible contribution to the corporate Treasurer, at:





So Mike <IO> are you going to move the museum to LoG?

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:23 am 
 

Hey Frank---



Since the LoG museum will be a non-profit, and will be based in LG, does that mean that I'll be able to travel there to do research on the original manuscripts, gaming archival materials, etc., just like a rare books collection at a university libarary?



While attending Penn State, I had the pleasure of perusing original Shakespeare folios, the Malleus Maleficarum, King James' Demonologie, and other Elizabethan tomes---all in pursuit of material for my research papers, of course. I'd certainly love to be able to create a facsimilie transcription of the original ToEE and other mss. in the collection, to be able to do analysis and comparison of original ToEE notes vs. the published version in the same way that I've compared Tsojconth to S4 Tsojcanth on my web site. I'm sure other folks (in particular many members of this board) would love the same opportunity.  For a sample of such work, see Greyhawk's "Lost" Dungeon Levels:  S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and Greyhawk's "Lost" Dungeon Levels:  S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth - Tsojconth Encounters Comparison



Has the BoD of LoG given thought to that kind of research and scholarship usage of the materials yet?


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 3:27 am 
 

I read your online dissertation about the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Allan.  



I did not know you through the Acaeum at the time.



I was impressed.   :wink:


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:22 am 
 

Yo, Allen. Hey, you emailed me on Wednesday of GenCon week -- but you can't sleep that late, I'm onsite by Monday or Tuesday. ;>



Archive access would be fundamental to the purpose and success of such a site, imho. But again, the 501 only got set up a week ago, give us a breather... the BoD has yet to meet to consider the NAGA proposal, let alone its ramifications, costs, and such. I know we're all chomping the bit to get racing, but it's gonna take time and money.



As to making copies of archives, I'm sure that you (and everyone) will realize that many items are so special that even a copy could produce profiteering. Until the archived pieces are commonly known to be such, public ignorance could result in stupid people paying a lot for a publicly available copy. Thus, early on we'd probably have legal restrictions, a waiver/guarantee that must be signed, or even ::cringe:: limits on the amount copyable -- tho I abhor the latter as a restriction of freedoms.



I'm sure you know that I'm not referring to you, nor to other well-known authors/gamers/collectors; but some folks even within the industry have a checkered history as regards scrupulous ethics, and money can tempt anyone. Once these materials are available to the public, access ought not be limited to those in an 'insiders club', and appropriate precautions must be in place.



Oh, btw, I also found Kuntz's original MFA notes in my archives. ;>



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Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:54 am 
 

MShipley88 wrote:I read your online dissertation about the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, Allan.



I did not know you through the Acaeum at the time.



I was impressed.  :wink:




Thanks Mike---my GH geekitude knows no bounds ;)


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:56 am 
 

ExTSR wrote:Oh, btw, I also found Kuntz's original MFA notes in my archives. ;>




OK, that settles it:  once I'm back in the midwest we're going to have to go clean out and organize your Chicago archives after all, Frank :D


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:59 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:Heya awl. Yah, ToEE copy for $900. Every little bit helps.



For those who were trying to get me during the con, I am truly and very sorry -- I missed about a dozen cell calls. ::sigh:: The stupid phone developed a habit of turning its ringer off. Argh etc.


Heya, Frank! Recovering, now; or still running on overtime adrenaline? :)



Yeah, no probs. Would really have liked to bid on one or two of those items, especially that which could not be repeated; but judging by that excellent summary realisation list you just posted, I think it's probably best that you saved my credit card from crashing and burning (any worse than it has already). :P



Although I must admit it was still very tempting to give you a call even though I knew you should've be in an auction...!



ExTSR wrote:One way it COULD expand is with a Legends of Gaming archive. The name I'm proposing (to the Board of Directors of LoG) is NAGA -- the North American Gaming Archive -- since the corp is broader in scope than just Hobby gaming. I personally own over 6,000 boardgame titles (many rares, some Sid Sacksons) that I'm ready to donate formally, as well as various original and/or early manuscripts -- like the ToEE original -- that I want to be preserved and not fought over. (Wills and Probate often end up in court; when you try to fight a museum covered by a 501, the state's on your side, and often the Feds too.)


*nods*



All sounds intriguing and very interesting.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:07 pm 
 

Just thought I add here on behalf of everyone, welcome to this board Frank. Knowing that you post several other places, Its nice to have you post here too. :D



harami2000 wrote:  

All sounds intriguing and very interesting.




Yes, very interesting. :D


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:09 pm 
 

ExTSR wrote:As to making copies of archives, I'm sure that you (and everyone) will realize that many items are so special that even a copy could produce profiteering. Until the archived pieces are commonly known to be such, public ignorance could result in stupid people paying a lot for a publicly available copy. Thus, early on we'd probably have legal restrictions, a waiver/guarantee that must be signed, or even ::cringe:: limits on the amount copyable -- tho I abhor the latter as a restriction of freedoms.


Yep... *sighs*



Thanks for the response, Frank (and for asking that question, Allan).





No chance of relocating that to the UK, then? ...Not sure 'bout the deal on extra-territorial 501(c)s though! ;)



(You mentioned fully tax-deductible => 501(c)(3) => must serve public purposes, no? *interesting visualisations there*)

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 5:10 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Just thought I add here on behalf of everyone, welcome to this board Frank. Knowing that you post several other places, Its nice to have you post here too. :D




yes i agree. i feel quite humble actually :) well i did for at least 3 seconds anyway :D (j/k)



welcome frank!



*goes off to think of some real interesting questions to ask*



Al



  


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Post Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:48 am 
 

Back on topic---anyone know who bought the T1-4 manuscript copy? :D


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