How much eBay really cares about fraudulent sellers/sales...
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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 10:57 am 
 

Is not often I start a thread. Apologies in advance for the lengthiness, but is probably worth it, IMO, in case anyone else has similar "experiences"/to report.

Just to show how much eBay really cares about seller fraud. :o

=

Re. that "Copyright 1978" PHB ( http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5222736292 ) which the seller confirmed to me was a T1st.

Clips from my correspondence with seller, right at the start of the sale.
uncia2000 wrote:Greetings. Which of the first four printings Page Not Found is this copy? (combination of flyleaf color and "printing" stated on copyright page, if any). Thanks.
lakayroc wrote:
I believe this is what your looking for if not let me know, if so enlighten me, I believe it is the first of 4.
<clip>
uncia2000 wrote:> Thanks again and good luck!!!! === :)
Heh, heh, will need plenty of that as you've confirmed it to be a "True First" print. Please no offer accepting or adding a BIN price without letting me know!! ;)


Just after the auction, I received the following from <juliabulia>. (Thank you for the email! Hope you don't mind me clipping this, here).

juliabulia wrote:...FYI, I had emailed the seller 5 days ago to supply me with printing info (figuring it was 1st or 2nd since it showed 1978 printing)...he/she just answered me late yesterday that it was a 6th printing!!! I told her that, that was inpossible unless the picture she had was not of the actual item...I told her if that was the case, he/she is misleading prospective buyers w/ fals info and should clarify it in her auction, and to let me know if that was the case....he/she never emailed me back, and I never saw the auction change, thus I shied away from it. I meant to get to Acaeum to post this, but I got busy, and didn't get back to it. I hope you either haven't yet paid, or have a chance to get your money back...as I believe this is a 6th printing with a false photo...


Was deciding how best to tackle this, when Brian did my detective work for me! (Again, thanks, and trust it's OK to clip your PM!).

bclarkie wrote:I was going through some of the auction listings that I am tracking for the board, and I think I discovered some bad news for you.  For reference, here is the auction that you won:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5222736292

and here is the link to completly different auction that I was tracking a few weeks ago:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5212446677

The auction you won has the same pic that was clearly stolen form the earlier auction that I was tracking.  Hopefully, it works out for you, but it is certainly looking good right now. :(


Brian alluded to my first one-sided conversation with eBay;
harami2000 wrote:...Your internal "ask a question" system will have a copy of a message I sent the seller to which they confirmed it was an early (and rare) printing. However, after auction-close I was alerted to the fact that this auction is a *FRAUD* and the image is stolen from auction 5212446677. The item they actually have for sale is a cheap, later copy of that book. Obviously, I do not wish to pay for a lie. Could you please cancel the sale and have a word with the seller. Many thanks, David. <harami2000>
eBay Customer Support UK wrote:Hello,
Thank you for taking the time to write to eBay.
It is not possible to retract your winning bid once the listing has ended...


My (calm!) response to that was...
harami2000 wrote:...> I recommend that you get in touch with the seller lakayroc and let them know what has happened.

"What has happened" is that *THEY* are trying to *DEFRAUD*
me... and it is in plain sight per the links I provided, below!
(5222736292 image copied from 5212446677).

Excuse me, but are you telling me that I have to proceed with the
sale despite the fact that I now know it to be a *FRAUD*??

And that you are taking *NO* action, despite the fact I've pointed
out the reason for the fraud, and that you have messages sent via
your system detailing the fraudulent response from the seller?

And that I have to take a "negative" from the seller for *THEIR*
fraudulent activity, regrettably not discovered until after the sale
closed?

Please confirm this and I shall take the issue up with the appropriate
legal bodies and make it known publicly.
You (eBay) are legally obliged *NOT* to let fraudulent activity
proceed.

rsvp, as soon as possible, please!

Kind regards,
David. <harami2000>


Fair enough, no?

Well, I've just received the following response from their so-called "SafeHarbour" team...

Alan Monroe; SafeHarbour Team wrote:...eBay is always very concerned about breaches of its policies and have thoroughly investigated your report. In accordance with our policies, however, I have found that there is not enough evidence to show that a violation has taken place.

In our last mail to you we outlined that if you were to back out of the transaction you could be given an unpaid item strike. In order to avoid this situation it may be best to give the seller a call and kindly explain that you no longer wish to have the item. They can then make a second chance offer to an under bidder
or give you a chance to mutually withdraw from the transaction resulting in no strike being issued...


<...>

What do y'all think to that, then?

eBay isn't just refusing to annul a blatantly fraudulent sale, or do anything about a seller who is attempting to defraud, they're actually saying it's also OK for the seller to scam the underbidder, instead! :evil: :evil:


Well, I promised them I'd "make it known publicly". Now to see about those "appropriate legal bodies".

Feel free to pass on the "good news", :roll:
David.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:09 am 
 

Lets face it, Ebay support staff is not qualified or paid enough to rule on this issue or give a crap what happens to you.  E-mail the guy who ran the auction and tell him to smarten up and let the other bidders know as well!


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:27 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:Lets face it, Ebay support staff is not qualified or paid enough to rule on this issue or give a crap what happens to you. E-mail the guy who ran the auction and tell him to smarten up and let the other bidders know as well!

Yes. Sad to say, I'm relying on the "good nature" a seller who's already proven to be willing to commit fraud to not only annul the sale but also not to re-offer the item fraudulently at a later date. Very low tolerance level for that...
Will just have to phrase that as "politely" as I can and see whether I can dodge the negative, too.

So much for trying to get some kind of resolution/solution/support through the "official channels".
Even with eBay, I hadn't expected that to take 5+ days to go absolutely nowhere (plus that gem of a "try to get the seller defraud someone else" at the end).

*sigh*

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:46 am 
 

for what its worth david, i got shafted like this a while ago. i thought i had won a 1st print book (forget what it was now), which the seller advised me that it was. when i won it and paid, i was well excited! when it arrived, to my horror, i found it was actually a 3rd print, significantly changing the whole perspective of the auction/win etc.

when i contacted the seller on 4 / 5 occasions, i didnt get one reply. when i contacted ebay - i got next to no co-operation off them either. pissed me off immensely, but on the plus side, it didnt cost that much.

ebay will get their come-uppance one day, i dont doubt it for one second.

Al



  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:47 am 
 

Blackmoor wrote:...and let the other bidders know as well!

Yup, helped to have this thread to point them at.
Just as well there wasn't a dozen or more of them...

Maybe it's better to stick to sales where no image is provided!

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:50 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:So much for trying to get some kind of resolution/solution/support through the "official channels".
Even with eBay, I hadn't expected that to take 5+ days to go absolutely nowhere (plus that gem of a "try to get the seller defraud someone else" at the end).

*sigh*


o'course david, what you COULD do, is bypass ebay and paypal totally. advise the seller that he/she is being fraudulent and you do not want the item. unless they are prepared to refund you in full and withdraw the auction, you will advise your credit card of the situation and leave it to them to resolve (which they will).

if you receive the item, the only thing you can then do is go down legal channels as ebay/paypal are poxy and about as useful as a dog-eared X1 for making your fortune.

best of luck with it chummer....

Al



  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:03 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:when i contacted the seller on 4 / 5 occasions, i didnt get one reply. when i contacted ebay - i got next to no co-operation off them either. pissed me off immensely, but on the plus side, it didnt cost that much.

Hrr... not just the $, however little, but a waste of time and grief, too, no doubt. Sorry to hear that. :(

Well, at worst (thanks to <juliabulia>) I take a negative, since their message got to me before I paid. :)
However, could just as easily have had someone pay $75 for that PHB, had it been posted on the "Interesting Items" thread.

killjoy32 wrote:ebay will get their come-uppance one day, i dont doubt it for one second.

Not sure who's going to take the first step to forcefully get them to at least realise that they need to clean up their act. Is not as though they can use the "we're a small, penniless company" excuse any more.

Will definitely run a copy of this by the trading standards people, anyhow, to see what they think about a company stating that they will knowingly promote and facilitate a fraudulent sale (that "They can then make a second chance offer to an under bidder" quote) after they have been alerted to an attempted fraud "problem" about which they choose to do absolutely nothing.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:05 pm 
 

I guess Ebay is big enough that they do not feel it necessary to take remedial action unless the big money is involved.

I am fairly new to Ebay, but I got into it know that I was relying upon the good faith of others.  I guess that makes me an innocent, but I try to keep up my end of things.

My guess is that Ebay just doesn't feel that your fraud claim is large enough to warrant their time.  That is too bad...but is there a competing auction site anywhere near as powerful as Ebay?

Also, on that picture in the auction.....the first player's handbooks to come out seem to me to have had a lighter green ink on the cover.  They also were not as glossy as the copies that followed.  The one in that picture has the TSR Wizard logo (always a good sign), but the patina that is shining in the picture and the dark ink make it look to me like a later run.

I have not collected TSR books before...outside of my own slightly large set...are they valuable?  Is a first edition Fiend Folio, for instance, worth something?  What about the first print of Dieties and Demi-gods with the Erol Otus cover and the Cthulhu and Melnibonean Mythos included?   :?


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:09 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:o'course david, what you COULD do, is bypass ebay and paypal totally. advise the seller that he/she is being fraudulent and you do not want the item. unless they are prepared to refund you in full and withdraw the auction, you will advise your credit card of the situation and leave it to them to resolve (which they will).

*points to that "before I paid" comment* (minor miracle that, in my book... thx, <juliabulia>)

Oh, my message to the seller just now was positively friendly...

At best, I can't get them not to defraud someone else and if they "mutually withdraw" from the transaction, I can't leave a "negative" as a warning to other buyers about the previous attempted fraudulent sale.

killjoy32 wrote:...as ebay/paypal are poxy and about as useful as a dog-eared X1 for making your fortune.

Hrmm... Don't know where I should be smiling resignedly at that! :)

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:13 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:I guess Ebay is big enough that they do not feel it necessary to take remedial action unless the big money is involved.

Yup. And I think they're using that totally. :(

Is well known fraud for "small" money (<$10k) barely registers, if at all.
e.g. "Most law enforcement agencies will not even bother with Internet fraud case unless the loss is over $10,000. In San Francisco, I was told by the police that "The D.A. does not prosecute Internet fraud cases because they are too hard to prove". In Flushing N.Y., I was told that they were "too busy" to do anything, even though the fraud was well over $10,000." ( Internet Merchant Accounts: How to Reduce Fraud ).

MShipley88 wrote:My guess is that Ebay just doesn't feel that your fraud claim is large enough to warrant their time.

They don't even see it as a fraud. The word never crosses their lips. (Deliberately, I suspect).

MShipley88 wrote:I am fairly new to Ebay, but I got into it know that I was relying upon the good faith of others. I guess that makes me an innocent, but I try to keep up my end of things.

:) :)

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:24 pm 
 

MShipley88 wrote:I have not collected TSR books before...outside of my own slightly large set...are they valuable? Is a first edition Fiend Folio, for instance, worth something? What about the first print of Dieties and Demi-gods with the Erol Otus cover and the Cthulhu and Melnibonean Mythos included?  :?

No, no, and hell no.  :)

1st (sometimes 2nd) Deities in decent condition average $25-35, sometimes far higher due to persistent hype.  Fiend Folio has no significant value/rarity, would go for $10-15.  This is assuming patience and sanity on the part of the bidder.  Just my opinion, of course.

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:41 pm 
 

If eBay are being paid by the seller, why on earth would they want to prevent any form of scam? Without the fraud on eBay there would be a dramatic reduction in eBay's turnover. It makes no business sense what so ever to do anything about eBay fraud.

That's what your credit card is for. Pay for the item and then chargeback. Screw the seller. Like what's he gonna do?


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:14 pm 
 

Like mbassoc said - pay with CC, then you have the option of a chargeback. Let the fraudster deal with eBay/paypal's ever-so-helpful staff ;)

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:18 pm 
 

*LOL*. Idiot seller! Glad I at least tried eBay first. :roll:

They deny all wrong-doing, totally avoid mentioning that they nicked the image showing a different cover and additionally have already sent the book without payment, either out of total naivety to try to blackmail me into paying.
Roll on exchange of negatives...

harami2000 wrote:Greetings and apologies for the delayed response: I've had to wait over five days for an "official" reply from eBay... Anyhow, after auction close I was made aware that you copied the image you used from http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5212446677 in violation of eBay policy, and that this image does not represent the item for sale (which I now understand to be a later, almost worthless copy, rather than a rarer early print which you confirmed it was, following my questions). === eBay suggests that you might "mutually withdraw" from the transaction and I would suggest that should you sell the book at a later date that you use a *genuine* image of the item for sale. === Please let me know. Regards, David.

lakayroc wrote:That is not true, and your copy has been sent to you, it is in perfect condition. If I do not receive payment, I will report you to ebay, for non payment, and give neg feedback, i answered all your questions. When you receive the book, I expect payment, or you can return to sender. If I do not receive payment, or the book back I will absolutely report you. By ebay policy, when you bid it was a legal binding contract. What I will do is when the book arrives, as I said if you do not wish to keep it, mail it back. I will refund your money for the book. Feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns.

lakayroc wrote:I just read your email again, and all the questions you asked, were answered honestly. Exactly as they appear in the book...Thanks

harami2000 wrote:Do you deny that you stole the image of the book for your auction from that other sale I mentioned? And additionally that the copy you had for sale does not even have the same cover (according to another potential bidder who only heard back from you the night before the sale closed). No, you did not answer my question and the book is not and /cannot/ be the first printing you told me it was. === If you have now sent the book without payment, there is nothing I can do about that except return your negative feedback with one of my own. If you had been *honest* and told me the book you had for sale was NOT the one in the picture, I would not have bid; rather, I would have raised the issue with eBay and your sale would have been cancelled by them (since picture theft is against their policies and potentially fraudulent if the item is not identical). Regards, David.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:22 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:Like mbassoc said - pay with CC, then you have the option of a chargeback. Let the fraudster deal with eBay/paypal's ever-so-helpful staff ;)

You've both got a point. Thanks. :)
I presume the idiot seller didn't use trackable shipping, either.

However I don't think fighting dishonesty with dishonesty sits well here, even though I'd probably get away with that.

The main issue was that eBay could have done something about such a blatant fraud in 5 seconds flat, yet chose to do nothing... or, indeed, actually compounded the potential for fraud further.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:32 pm 
 

Well, I'm not encouraging using a CC chargeback, just reminding you it's an option :)   I know there are orders that I wish I'd paid for via credit card, rather than PP balance.

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:33 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:*LOL*. Idiot seller! Glad I at least tried eBay first. :roll:

They deny all wrong-doing, totally avoid mentioning that they nicked the image showing a different cover and additionally have already sent the book without payment, either out of total naivety to try to blackmail me into paying.
Roll on exchange of negatives...

lakayroc wrote:That is not true, and your copy has been sent to you, it is in perfect condition. If I do not receive payment, I will report you to ebay, for non payment, and give neg feedback, i answered all your questions. When you receive the book, I expect payment, or you can return to sender. If I do not receive payment, or the book back I will absolutely report you. By ebay policy, when you bid it was a legal binding contract. What I will do is when the book arrives, as I said if you do not wish to keep it, mail it back. I will refund your money for the book. Feel free to contact me with any questions or concerns.

lakayroc wrote:I just read your email again, and all the questions you asked, were answered honestly. Exactly as they appear in the book...Thanks

harami2000 wrote:Do you deny that you stole the image of the book for your auction from that other sale I mentioned? And additionally that the copy you had for sale does not even have the same cover (according to another potential bidder who only heard back from you the night before the sale closed). No, you did not answer my question and the book is not and /cannot/ be the first printing you told me it was. === If you have now sent the book without payment, there is nothing I can do about that except return your negative feedback with one of my own. If you had been *honest* and told me the book you had for sale was NOT the one in the picture, I would not have bid; rather, I would have raised the issue with eBay and your sale would have been cancelled by them (since picture theft is against their policies and potentially fraudulent if the item is not identical). Regards, David.


David, you might as well strike first. Its unfortunate but not very surprising that Ebay is being of no help. :roll:

BTW, how exactly get your address to ship to if you havent even paid for it yet?? 8O  Christ he shipped it without you even paying for it yet, how f*ckin stupid can one person be?? :roll:


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:47 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
lakayroc wrote:That is not true, and your copy has been sent to you, it is in perfect condition.


David,
Sorry to hear about the screwing.  However, you may have a couple of avenues of recourse.  The best would be the aforementioned CC chargeback, if indeed you paid with a CC (I take it you haven't paid yet, though).  If the idiot really has sent the book already - in advance of your payment - what about pursuing postal fraud?  Once you have the book in your hands, if it does arrive, you can surely prove you were defrauded through the mail.

In any event, you're sure to get neg'd, so I'd hit them first if I were you.  Perhaps a friendly email to the seller pointing them to this thread would also serve some purpose.

Best of luck,
Stephen

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:49 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:BTW, how exactly get your address to ship to if you havent even paid for it yet??

*thinks*. OK, is that possible?!  :?

*looks around for a seller to confirm*

bclarkie wrote:8O Christ he shipped it without you even paying for it yet, how f*ckin stupid can one person be?? :roll:

They say...

Nothing surprises me any more... :roll:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:54 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:In any event, you're sure to get neg'd, so I'd hit them first if I were you.

Agreed with y'both. If the next response ain't a total turnaround, will do so.

80 character limit, huh? :o

  
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