alternative to ebay?  screw these assholes
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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:14 pm 
 

If you customer wants to shop on eBay but can't be arsed openning a PayPal account they can buy from someone other than me. I need to know that there is at least a reasonable chance that an International Buyer is legit'.

If they don't have a PayPal account the odds are high that they're gonna either screw me over or be so beligerant that the sale will fall through. My experience of the 'I don't have a PayPal account' bregade is that they are newbies with extremely low intelligence and an attitude problem to go with it.

If a buyer has a PayPal account and wants to send me a cheque and pay my bank charges, I'm cool with that. We can discuss that after the sale. But if they don't have a PayPal account in the first place they'll be blocked from bidding.

There should be a system of blocking all bidders without a specified number of feedbacks. Not just 1 or -1 or whayever it is. I should be able to block everyone without at least 15 transactions from my auctions without having to filter them myself and cancel their bids.

If you're a seller, withholding feedback until the buyer places feedback is the only mild for of deterant you have against someone screwing you. I buy far more stuff than I sell and I'm happy for sellers not to give me feedback until I've left mine.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:36 pm 
 

Shingen wrote:I don't think "fairly reasonable" inlcudes the gouging by PayPal.


This is one line of reasoning that I really don't agree with. PP's customer service sucks, yes, but their fees are really not unreasonable. I pay eBay almost twice as much as I pay PP, and PP is the one handling the money.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:33 pm 
 

I know everybody will hate this but I include a portion of the Paypal fees in my shipping and handling.  Paypal has never did a chargeback on me but all this talk about it is making me nervous.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:38 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:I know everybody will hate this but I include a portion of the Paypal fees in my shipping and handling. Paypal has never did a chargeback on me but all this talk about it is making me nervous.


I know I hate it, but not everyone here does.  Perhaps not coincidentally, I only buy on ebay, and have not yet started selling off my odds/ends/extras.

While it's pretty much de rigeur for big corporations to pass all of their costs onto the consumer, I just think it's pretty uncool in the person-to-person context, so long as those costs don't otherwise make it uneconomic for the seller to sell his stuff on ebay.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:43 pm 
 

It is 'uneconomic' to sell stuff on eBay if the seller has to pay for the buyer to complete the transaction. The seller should pay for the display and of the goods and running of the auction (eBay's fees), but it is the responsibility of the buyer to provide the money if he bids on the auction. The seller should not have to pay so that a buyer can complete the contract.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:32 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:It is 'uneconomic' to sell stuff on eBay if the seller has to pay for the buyer to complete the transaction. The seller should pay for the display and of the goods and running of the auction (eBay's fees), but it is the responsibility of the buyer to provide the money if he bids on the auction. The seller should not have to pay so that a buyer can complete the contract.




That's disputable, Ian.  (This is Pointy Stick/Zack of DF, thanks again for the White Dwarf DVD!)  When the seller chooses to accept paypal, in theory he isn't assisting the buyer in doing his part-- he's providing a concession to attract the buyer in the first place, one who otherwise might not choose to buy the item.  For example, credit card companies charge stores that accept credit cards.  In theory, the seller eats this because he knows accepting credit cards will facilitate sales.  Likewise, a seller pays rent on a brick-and-mortar store so as to facilitate the buyer coming to him to buy his goods.  Should the buyer pay the rent instead?



The reason I'm not flat-out disagreeing with you is that in most sophisticated markets, in one way or another ALL of the seller's costs of business get passed on to the buyer.  So presumably the cost of rent and credit card fees are reflected in the seller's prices, even if the buyer doesn't get charged a direct tariff at the cash register for rent, credit card fees, etc.



So on that level I shouldn't mind paying your paypal charges.  It's just that when they aren't hidden in the item price, but are baldly demanded (or poorly hidden in "handling fees"  :roll: ), the buyer is reminded that, wait a second, he's not only paying for the item, but the seller's cost of doing business.  And then he starts to feel put upon, even though every time he buys groceries or clothes or movie tickets he's doing the exact same thing.



So I don't see this as a matter of contract completion (Best Buy isn't holding my hand and helping me complete my contract when it takes my credit card) but of pricing structures and strategies.  We'd like to think of ebay as a yard sale, where the seller isn't charging us for the cost of his cardboard boxes and display tables, but ebay has gotten too sophisticated for that, alas, and should now be thought of as any other other commercial sales venue.



(I for one would call it uneconomic for the seller when the cost of selling the item exceeds the sales price of the item, btw.)

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:34 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:It is 'uneconomic' to sell stuff on eBay if the seller has to pay for the buyer to complete the transaction. The seller should pay for the display and of the goods and running of the auction (eBay's fees), but it is the responsibility of the buyer to provide the money if he bids on the auction. The seller should not have to pay so that a buyer can complete the contract.

I hate to ruin your train of thought, but every time you use a credit or debit card at a store, they are charged a fee for that transaction.  :oops:  Think about that the next time you go to buy something and pay with "The Card".


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:42 pm 
 

Shingen wrote:I don't think "fairly reasonable" inlcudes the gouging by PayPal.

I would rather wait on a check or Money Order than taking PayPal I am gonna lose a chunk on, and whose customer service and resolution department frankly suck.

PayPal sucks ass, to be honest. An eBay moreso everyday, where Cougars are making a killing and honest collectors are getting shilled.

Let me just start by saying I have never had a problem with either eBay or PayPal's customer service and resolution dept. I have also never had the need to use either since every single transaction that I've had problems with has been resolved between me and the other person.

If PP wasn't there, some other company would be offering to transfer your money via the internet for a fee. And if you don't like eBay, you can always go to Amazon, Yahoo or any of the other aution sites. (Yes, Amazon and Yahoo STILL do auctions.) The downfall to that choice would be a dip in your sales as not that many people frequent those avenues.

So the choice is simple: If you hate PP and eBay, don't use them. Eschew them for Yahoo, Amazon and Bidpay. See how far you go in comparisson to where you could on eBay.

Please don't get me wrong. I think that eBay's fees are raising at an alarming rate, but I'll only stop selling on there once a viable and prooven alternative comes along. Until that day, I'll suck it up so I can make some room in my house and a little extra spending cash for my collecting addictions.   :lol:

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:42 pm 
 

In the UK a lot of stores charge a 2% surcharge for credit card payments. I don't have a problem paying this.

I do not pass on any PayPal charges to a buyer. What I will do is evaluate the risk involved in accepting credit card payments from unknown bidders, and shipping to unconfirmed addresses, and charge a fee to accept that risk myself.

The only plausable way to do this would be to charge a flat rate $20 shipping charge and then offer a $12 discount for returning customers, active messageboard members and those with 'confirmed' addresses.

That way, if a buyer can't be bothered registering his home address with PayPal and doesn't participate regularily on the forums, he pays $20 for shipping and I take on the risk that the 'unknown' might screw me.

That seems fair to me.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:48 pm 
 

Achizar wrote:This is Pointy Stick/Zack of DF, thanks again for the White Dwarf DVD

For those who haven't looked, I posted a review on Dragonfoot's eviews forum, but I'd be interested in what others think of this archive. I also hear rumours that SPI are going to republish the Ares Magazine Archive.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:59 pm 
 

Achizar wrote:So I don't see this as a matter of contract completion (Best Buy isn't holding my hand and helping me complete my contract when it takes my credit card) but of pricing structures and strategies. We'd like to think of ebay as a yard sale, where the seller isn't charging us for the cost of his cardboard boxes and display tables, but ebay has gotten too sophisticated for that, alas, and should now be thought of as any other other commercial sales venue.


A yard sale doesn't cost the seller money to show an item, to sell an item, and there's no fee involved for accepting the money from your buyer. Selling on eBay, you have to pay for the first and second, and if you're using PP, the third as well.

The way I handle it is to add in a small handling fee. This covers my packaging, and a small bit of eBay/PayPal fees. I have yet to have anyone complain about it - I think most folks realize that selling on eBay is not cheap.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 7:33 pm 
 

Wraith, you have never had problems with eBay or Paypal because, as you said, you have never HAD a problem. The evidence is clear. Everyone here, myself included, who has ever had a problem with either one has been met with indifference and abysmal service.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:54 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:I know everybody will hate this but I include a portion of the Paypal fees in my shipping and handling. Paypal has never did a chargeback on me but all this talk about it is making me nervous.


Exactly. And you are not alone. Anyone else notice the spike in shipping? Most people who use priority mail charge about $5 when the actual charge is around $4.

Tack on a buch or so to shipping and you can cover some of those PP and ebay charges. I know it is not much, but it sure helps when you sell 30 low dollar items. Large sticker price items obviously create a larger dent, but nothing is perfect.

I am constantly trying to adjust my payment and shipping methods to improve my selling bottom line. It sucks, but you have to do it or those pesky fees will eat you alive.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:57 pm 
 

bbarsh wrote:I am constantly trying to adjust my payment and shipping methods to improve my selling bottom line. It sucks, but you have to do it or those pesky fees will eat you alive.


Speaking of which, you haven't accepted my PP payment bbarsh :P

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:33 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:
Achizar wrote:So I don't see this as a matter of contract completion (Best Buy isn't holding my hand and helping me complete my contract when it takes my credit card) but of pricing structures and strategies. We'd like to think of ebay as a yard sale, where the seller isn't charging us for the cost of his cardboard boxes and display tables, but ebay has gotten too sophisticated for that, alas, and should now be thought of as any other other commercial sales venue.


A yard sale doesn't cost the seller money to show an item, to sell an item, and there's no fee involved for accepting the money from your buyer. Selling on eBay, you have to pay for the first and second, and if you're using PP, the third as well.


Which is really my point-- we wish ebay were like a yard sale, but it is more like a shopping mall, where you have to pay rent and often have to pay a percentage of your sales (over a certain breakpoint) to the landlord.  In the mall, the seller factors the overhead into the product costs.  When it's done on ebay, buyers like myself don't like it, but the more we discuss it, the more I can at least understand it.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:01 pm 
 

Achizar wrote:Which is really my point-- we wish ebay were like a yard sale, but it is more like a shopping mall, where you have to pay rent and often have to pay a percentage of your sales (over a certain breakpoint) to the landlord. In the mall, the seller factors the overhead into the product costs. When it's done on ebay, buyers like myself don't like it, but the more we discuss it, the more I can at least understand it.

Doesn't help that we're all working from a different shopping experience paradigm in the first place, either.

That RL mall example actually works better in a UK context where the seller picks up the tab for all invisible costs/off-takes and the buyer pays exactly what's on the price tag. Whereas in some other countries, when someone buys a $10 item, IRL, they actually expect to be charged $10.80, or whatever.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:19 pm 
 

I think that a lot of the problem is because ebay is no necessary to collector's and seller's (despite whatever grumblings people may have).

Ebay and Paypal rules and fees are up front. Their policies are there for anyone to see (if you bother looking for them, that is). Everything is real straightforward and there is no excuse for griping about "hidden" fees.

But it's just too addictive . . . the massive growth of eBay proves that. Collector's from all fields are able to economically and easily (relatively speaking) complete (or begin) their collections. Sellers (and more importantly those who simply have stuff and have no way to get rid of it) finally have a viable outlet.

Remember! Think how much more money everyone would have spent trying to get these items if it weren't for eBay.

Remember! Think how much less you would have gotten if you tried to unload your items at a hobby shop . . . or used book store . . . or (shudder) a yard sale . . .

If you are reselling . . . then you have no excuse to complain. You wouldn't even be in business otherwise. Try opening a game store and see what your overhead is. Wait till you see what the credit card processing fees amount to! Just setting up those dinky little receipt printers and the ability to process credit transactions costs well over $1,000 (I believe it is SIGNIFICANTLY more - I know someone who used to sell these as a job . . . but it was a long time ago and I forget the exact amount).

Of course there are things that could be better. . . but the reason no one walks away is because it is still a better deal than they could get otherwise.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:13 am 
 

Well here's as an example of how sellers pass off their fees to their customers

Once upon a time in the good old US of A if you went to the gas (petrol) station to fill up your truck and then tried to pay with your credit card you were charged a surcharge (2 % or whatever). Then as Credit cards became more and more popular Consumers (and Credit cards companies) complained how unfair this was. Faced with this backlash the Gas companies decided to eliminate the unfair surcharge.

How did they do it?

Well they simply raised the price of Gas so that everyone paid the surcharge whether they paid with cash or credit cards.

Paypal is a neccesary evil. I grudgingly accept it as a seller - If you don't then you are loosing a lot of business.
And as a buyer I love it because I pay everything with my Paypal linked Credit card so I get 1% back on everything :-).

  


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:57 am 
 

Unlink the account from ebay and just tell buyers that they will be contacted for payment arrangements after the auction closes.

Use of PayPal on eBay


Notice Date: July 14, 2005
Effective Date: August 19, 2005
Beginning August 19, 2005, if you sell on eBay and offer PayPal, your PayPal account must accept all forms of payment including payments made via credit card, regardless of whether you display the PayPal logo with credit card icons. You must have a Premier or Business PayPal Account or be willing to upgrade from a Personal PayPal Account to a Premier or Business Account if you receive a credit card payment. You may not communicate to eBay buyers (e.g. via your eBay item description) that you only accept, or will not accept, specific forms of PayPal payment.


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Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:06 pm 
 

jagd wrote:And as a buyer I love it because I pay everything with my Paypal linked Credit card so I get 1% back on everything :-).


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