alternative to ebay?  screw these assholes
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Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 1:37 pm 
 

However, your listing was in violation of eBay's Keyword Spamming policy and has been removed from eBay.  We have credited all associated fees to your account and notified eBay users associated with the transaction that it has been cancelled.

 We would like to take this opportunity to let you know what part of your listing is not permitted.

Your listing(s) contains the following information:

Unfortunately, I do NOT accept credit cards through PayPal<br>Unfortunately, I do NOT accept credit cards through PayPal<br>Unfortunately, I do NOT accept credit cards through PayPal<br>Unfortunately, I do NOT accept credit cards through PayPal<br>

Sellers who choose Paypal as a payment option in the listing process must accept all forms of Paypal, without restriction.
Please note: violation of this or other eBay policies may result in forfeit of eBay fees on cancelled listings, limits on account privileges and account suspension.


Please review eBay's Listing Policies and User Agreement at the following locations:

 http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/policies.html
 http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/user-agreement.html

For more information on why eBay removes listings, or to write to us with questions, please review the following Web page:

 http://pages.ebay.com/help/confidence/listing-ended.html

We thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Regards,

eBay Trust & Safety



I think they just lost all my business.  Talk about ridiculous.  "You have to pay me to use my service, and you have to get screwed on the backend by the credit card fees."  I think I'll take my business elsewhere.



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Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:08 pm 
 

I'm honestly not sure why folks are so vitriolic towards PayPal charging fees. Do people expect them to be a non-profit organization?

I know at least several members have talked previously about using PP without paying fees. Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but I'm not surprised or offended that PP would move to close loopholes that allow folks to use their service without paying for it.

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Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 4:30 pm 
 

It would be a "loophole" if I were required to accept credit card payments.  I am not (at least, not by PayPal).  Insofar as this is not a loophole, I believe my vitriol is at least acceptable.

I guess I am just annoyed that they would cancel HALF my auctions ... when all of the auctions bear the same, supposedly "bad/bannable" language.  Morons.



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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:30 am 
 

I agree. I think if you accept PayPal you should accept credit card payments. Some of us don't keep a couple of hundred bucks in our PayPal accounts incase we want to buy stuff.

That said, if you want to add a service charge into the cost of Postage & Packaging and the overall cost of shipping is declared before hand, I think that is perfectly acceptable. Some of us do this to suppliment our incomes and we're not in the business of working for free.

I have a problem with PayPal providing no protection at all against chargebacks. Anyone can hit your account for a couple of hundred bucks at any time and there's f*ck all you can do about it.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:16 am 
 

Man, what are you guys smoking? You think someone should be forced to accept credit cards, considering the fact that ZERO protection is built into a Paypal account for the seller? Are you aware that once you upgrade, even balance transfers get whacked with a fee?
I agree 100% with Beerman, although I am a little angry with him for removing his old avatar. I'm all done with Paypal. If I want to pay someone to get porked, I'll get a hooker.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:00 am 
 

Unfortunately, outside of the USA, PayPal is the only way to get and process payments for International Customers.

I got sick of trying to explain to assholes that if they wanted to send me a cheque they had to add $35 for bank charges and wait 10 days before I'd ship out.

I will only accept PayPal from non-UK bidders unless someone wants to mail me cash.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:48 am 
 

Bidpay.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:51 am 
 

A few comments about PayPal. This is from the US perspective, so I'm not sure how much of this may apply to those in other places:

* Beginning August 19 PayPal will require you to accept credit cards if you offer PayPal as a payment option. There will be no more choice in the matter.

* PayPal does offer the seller protection against chargebacks, provided the Seller meets ALL of the following requirements:

1.) Ship within 7 days of payment.
2.) Ship to a Confirmed Address.
3.) Provide proof of delivery for purchases up to $250. Over $250 provide signature confirmation.

I was hit with a chargeback earlier this year. PayPal contacted me asking for proof of delivery. If I had been able to provide proof of delivery, I would have won the claim. However, it was a very cheap item, and I did not get Delivery Confirmation on that package. So I lost.

Failing to meet ANY of those 3 requirements automatically guarantees that the Buyer will prevail in any chargeback/claim.

*Due to requirement No. 3 above, many US sellers are no longer accepting PayPal for international shipments. It's not economically feasible to obtain proof of delivery on international shipments, so it's not possible to meet PayPal's requirements for the seller protection plan. So all an international customer has to say is "I didn't get my item" and file a claim with PayPal. The Seller can't provide proof of delivery, so the Buyer automatically wins the claim.

Many US sellers are now accepting only BidPay or International Postal Money Orders from international buyers. Both of these methods are safe for the Seller. The Buyer pays the transaction fees to use BidPay.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 9:18 am 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Bidpay.


i don't know if anyone other than our american friends can use this as a seller? i have used it as a buyer tho. i didnt find it very good tbh. when i made the payment, two weeks later i got a reminder to pay from the seller! turns out they didnt get advised by bidpay, until i showed them by confirmation! its quite cool that you can pass the fees on tho as a seller - ie. the buyer pays the fees of the transaction.

mind you, if there was a mass-migration to bidpay and suddenly paypal wasnt making its ultra-millions, what dya think ebay would do? "amendment to ebay policy"....

*sigh* it sucks man.

Al



  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:14 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
Deadlord36 wrote:Bidpay.

i don't know if anyone other than our american friends can use this as a seller?

Yes. Sort of...
BidPay - Authorize.Net
BidPay - Authorize.Net

killjoy32 wrote:i have used it as a buyer tho. i didnt find it very good tbh. when i made the payment, two weeks later i got a reminder to pay from the seller! turns out they didnt get advised by bidpay, until i showed them by confirmation! its quite cool that you can pass the fees on tho as a seller - ie. the buyer pays the fees of the transaction.

Would've been $33 to use BidPay for Gus's oB3, for anything other than not-really-first-class mail ("up to 10 business days") and I've no idea what exchange rate that would have hit my card at.

However, PayPal's exchange rate is actually $23 worse than if I'd picked up the cash at the post office(!): would have cost nearly $20 to send in an uninsured, signed-for packet, but saved the PayPal "pick up" fee ($25-30, Gus?).

Really can't win, I think.

But can wholeheartedly empathise with Frank...
We both got screwed big-time by PayPal recently, not least my sending to his old addy which "froze" the funds out of his reach and I wasn't able to push them in the right direction (if I'd asked PayPal they would have taken 5 days to tell me that). Cancelled the transaction and was hit for a ~$30 loss without notice when it exchanged my payment back into UK£ rather than actually "cancelling" (just over 24 hours, which is hidden in the small print somewhere). Does PayPal not have a bank account in the UK, or something? :?
Nice company that can keep a hold of /your/ money in an account which no-one has access to and doesn't actually flag that as a possible "issue".
...
And as for their "helpless" desk staff responses to my three queries following that, each one worse than the last. :evil:

</vent>

killjoy32 wrote:mind you, if there was a mass-migration to bidpay and suddenly paypal wasnt making its ultra-millions, what dya think ebay would do? "amendment to ebay policy"....

*sigh* it sucks man.

Indeed!

*tries to think of more positive things* :)

  

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:14 am 
 

The vast majority of eBay fraud and chargeback fraud is conducted from 'unconfirmed' addresses. PayPal policy is that you must accept credit card payments from 'unconfirmed' addresses. PayPal offer NO protection against chargebacks from credit cards.

I consider buyers with 'unconfirmed' PayPal addresses to be at the very least highly suspicious, and at worst fraudsters. They are unwilling to confirm their home address to a bank?

I intend to offer discounts in shipping to buyers who have a confirmed PayPal address outside of the UK. Say $20 shipping and $8 if you have a confirmed PayPal address.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:54 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:PayPal policy is that you must accept credit card payments from 'unconfirmed' addresses.


If you go to your PayPal Profile page, and select the "Payment Receiving Preferences" option, you can choose to block any user without a Confirmed Address.

mbassoc2003 wrote:PayPal offer NO protection against chargebacks from credit cards.


From the PayPal Seller Protection Policy:

"When a seller receives a payment through PayPal, if the buyer files an unauthorized transaction claim or a claim under PayPal's consumer protection programs (a "Buyer Claim"), or if the buyer files a credit card chargeback, a Temporary Hold will be placed on the amount of the payment. If the transaction qualifies for the Seller Protection Policy, the temporary hold will be lifted from those funds."

From later on in PayPal's policy, it states:

"If the seller loses a Buyer Claim or a chargeback dispute and does not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy, the seller will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction. In the case of a chargeback, sellers who do not meet the requirements of the Seller Protection Policy will also owe a $10.00 USD chargeback fee."

Here's a link to the whole policy:

User Agreement - PayPal

As long as you follow the requirements for qualifying for the Seller Protection Policy, you are protected against chargebacks (in my experience, anyway). This is what happened to me earlier this year. Had I been able to provide proof of delivery, I would have been protected against the chargeback.

Where the Seller Protection Policy does not apply in the case of chargebacks is if the Buyer claims the item received was "not as described". I haven't gone through one of these, so I'm not sure exactly what happens in that case. Others who have been through it have indicated that the Buyer is first asked if they are willing to pay for return shipping in exchange for a refund, and if not, their claim is denied. Not having gone through that process, though, I can't vouch for that.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:45 am 
 

shadowfax17 wrote:A few comments about PayPal. This is from the US perspective, so I'm not sure how much of this may apply to those in other places:

* PayPal does offer the seller protection against chargebacks, provided the Seller meets ALL of the following requirements:

1.) Ship within 7 days of payment.
2.) Ship to a Confirmed Address.
3.) Provide proof of delivery for purchases up to $250. Over $250 provide signature confirmation.


For international users of PayPal, #3 is impossible to obtain. They don't accept delivery confirmation for stuff other than USPS, and as I've heard from other folks in Canada, even the Expedited USA Parcel shipping (which has a fricking USPS Delivery Confirmation number) isn't good enough - because it only tracks delivery to the local mail sorting center, and isn't actually proof of delivery right to the buyer.

So in that regard, PP sucks gnoll nuts.

The vast majority of eBay fraud and chargeback fraud is conducted from 'unconfirmed' addresses. PayPal policy is that you must accept credit card payments from 'unconfirmed' addresses. PayPal offer NO protection against chargebacks from credit cards.

I consider buyers with 'unconfirmed' PayPal addresses to be at the very least highly suspicious, and at worst fraudsters. They are unwilling to confirm their home address to a bank?


International people quite often can't confirm their addresses. Canada and the UK are ok, but from what I've seen, just about every other country is SOL.

Bidpay


Bidpay has fees that make PayPal look damn near free. For a $100 purchase, it would cost the buyer over $7, and that's going with the 1st-Class Mail option.

As a seller, I wouldn't have to pay PP fees on that, which would be nice, but you're going to scare away a -lot- of potential customers. I'd rather pay the $3 that accepting that $100 would cost me.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:06 pm 
 

Then again when you ship your package for over $250.00 that you sent to Italy(e.g) that "supposedly" doesn't arrive and the "buyer" chrages it back leaving you SOL. I think that I would rather have the buyer pay the $7.00......


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:21 pm 
 

But you cannot block bidders on eBay who don't have a confirmed PayPal address. You can only block bidders who don't have a PayPal address. So the bidder with the unconfirmed PayPal account can still win the auction and then you're screwed anyway.

It's easier to make non-confirmed bidders pay $20 shipping and offer a discount of $12 for confirmed bidders. Then you're not breaching eBay policy.

Also, you will notice that PayPal protection only covers you for three transactions a year, regardless of whether you win or lose. After that you have no protection anyway.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 12:52 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:But you cannot block bidders on eBay who don't have a confirmed PayPal address. You can only block bidders who don't have a PayPal address. So the bidder with the unconfirmed PayPal account can still win the auction and then you're screwed anyway..


What I do is I block payment from Unconfirmed Addresses in my Paypal Profile. Then in my ebay auction TOS I specifically state that I will not accept PayPal payments from an Unconfirmed Address. So if someone with an Unconfirmed Address bids on one of my auctions, they know they'll have to pay me by some other method, aside from PayPal.

mbassoc2003 wrote:Also, you will notice that PayPal protection only covers you for three transactions a year, regardless of whether you win or lose. After that you have no protection anyway.


I wasn't aware of that limitation. In the linked policy, PayPal states a dollar limit of $5,000 of reversals per year, but I don't see anything about a limit on the number of reversals. Is it stated in some other policy document?

User Agreement - PayPal

  


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:10 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Then again when you ship your package for over $250.00 that you sent to Italy(e.g) that "supposedly" doesn't arrive and the "buyer" chrages it back leaving you SOL. I think that I would rather have the buyer pay the $7.00......


True. It'd be $11 though ;)

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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:13 pm 
 

I don't know. I found out about it after I had three chargebacks and claimed on their policy. I lost two of them and now will only ship to people I don't know by insured and signed for airmail shipping.

As far as I'm concerned I have to take the all the risk as a seller and the buyer's responsibility is either to demonstrate trustworthiness (either by getting confirmed or getting to know me), or to pay me to take that risk by paying a premium rate shipping and packaging charge.

Fortumately most of what I sell goes to Acaeum members and I'm considering offering discount to Acaeum members and hiking my postage & packing charges.


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 1:54 pm 
 

I figure it this way:

If you're wanting to sell your items... on eBay or anywhere... you should be fairly reasonable to accept alternate methods of payment. If not, rent space at a flea market or hold a garage sale.

I personally dislike it when people pay via PP using an eCheck because I have to wait several days for the check to clear before I get the money and send the item(s). I prefer to be able to get paid and send any items ASAP so I can consider the transaction complete and the item(s) aren't taking up my space. <G>

Of course, there are alternative forms of auction payment like Bidpay. There is also the method.. which I have seen many people from the UK do... of charging an extra "surcharge" for people to pay them with PP to help offset the charges. I think that's foolhardy and I wouldn't do it myself, but if it works for others... more power to them.

In short... Accept the PP charges as apart of running a "business". If you file your taxes correctly as a "business", these charges are deductible.

And that's the end of my 2-cents.   :)


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Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:00 pm 
 

I don't think "fairly reasonable" inlcudes the gouging by PayPal.

I would rather wait on a check or Money Order than taking PayPal I am gonna lose a chunk on, and whose customer service and resolution department frankly suck.

PayPal sucks ass, to be honest. An eBay moreso everyday, where Cougars are making a killing and honest collectors are getting shilled.

  
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