London explosions
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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:11 am 
 

I hope any Acaeum members over in London and their families and friends are safe and sound.  It's still very much a mystery as I write this, and it sounds as though it has been pretty bad.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:32 am 
 

Indeed :(

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:16 pm 
 

It's sad knowing that people won't be going home tonight, that there will be empty rooms, empty lives.

I know it doesn't make things any better, but the death toll could've been a lot higher if they hadn't gone off towards the *end* of rush hour. Or a different day, like the Victory celebrations, when thousands were in the Mall.

As a nation, like Spain (this seems not too dissimilar to the Madrid bombs), we've lived with terrorism before, and we knew that it was only a matter of time until such an event happened, it's just always been a case of when and on what scale, we won't give in to fear.

For anyone in London - hope you and yours are safe.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:26 pm 
 

Winterwords wrote:It's sad knowing that people won't be going home tonight, that there will be empty rooms, empty lives.

I know it doesn't make things any better, but the death toll could've been a lot higher if they hadn't gone off towards the *end* of rush hour. Or a different day, like the Victory celebrations, when thousands were in the Mall.

As a nation, like Spain (this seems not too dissimilar to the Madrid bombs), we've lived with terrorism before, and we knew that it was only a matter of time until such an event happened, it's just always been a case of when and on what scale, we won't give in to fear.

For anyone in London - hope you and yours are safe.


well i live in warrington, which is about 20 miles from manchester WAY up north from london. we had the IRA let off a bomb here about 11 years ago....now THAT was real scary stuff....thankfully a few few were killed, but thats no consolation to the ones who lost their own on that day.

personally i dont think we come down hard enough on these ppl. they should just be shot on sight.

:(

Al



  

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:32 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
Winterwords wrote:It's sad knowing that people won't be going home tonight, that there will be empty rooms, empty lives.

I know it doesn't make things any better, but the death toll could've been a lot higher if they hadn't gone off towards the *end* of rush hour. Or a different day, like the Victory celebrations, when thousands were in the Mall.

As a nation, like Spain (this seems not too dissimilar to the Madrid bombs), we've lived with terrorism before, and we knew that it was only a matter of time until such an event happened, it's just always been a case of when and on what scale, we won't give in to fear.

For anyone in London - hope you and yours are safe.


well i live in warrington, which is about 20 miles from manchester WAY up north from london. we had the IRA let off a bomb here about 11 years ago....now THAT was real scary stuff....thankfully a few few were killed, but thats no consolation to the ones who lost their own on that day.

personally i dont think we come down hard enough on these ppl. they should just be shot on sight.

:(

Al


Hi Al,

I designed the glass and the rooflight in that blue mess with the shiny smarties on it that they put in place of the old bullring (Selfridges). The window glass alone has a scrap value of £750/m.sq. The outer leaf is impregnated with gold (that's what gives you the look of decay around the edges of the windows) and the inner leaf is impregnated with platinum (so the windows look grey and not gold from inside the building).

So if you're out on the piss and you feel like smashing windows, make sure you take a carrier bag. :D


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:42 pm 
 

That's what I love about the U.K. "Out on the piss". You guys have far better terms than we do.
A prediction: This kind of thing will continue to escalate worldwide, until there is a crackdown or a Big Brother-style environment. Unfortunately, most of the world's citizens are soft and weak. Let's say a rule was implemented such as this: If you are involved IN ANY WAY with terrorism, and are caught, your trial must be completed within 30 days. If you are found guilty, you and every member of your immediate family are put to death by immolation. Children, women, the works. See how quickly shit like this ends.
Any religion or set of beliefs that deems it acceptable to kill noncombatants is fucked up to begin with.
Keep in mind that it was not necessarily Al-Queerda that engineered the explosions. There are many groups out there who would, in their eyes, stand to gain from them. It most likely is AQ, though.
This gives me an idea for a module series....


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 2:59 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:That's what I love about the U.K. "Out on the piss". You guys have far better terms than we do.
A prediction: This kind of thing will continue to escalate worldwide, until there is a crackdown or a Big Brother-style environment. Unfortunately, most of the world's citizens are soft and weak. Let's say a rule was implemented such as this: If you are involved IN ANY WAY with terrorism, and are caught, your trial must be completed within 30 days. If you are found guilty, you and every member of your immediate family are put to death by immolation. Children, women, the works. See how quickly shit like this ends.
Any religion or set of beliefs that deems it acceptable to kill noncombatants is fucked up to begin with.
Keep in mind that it was not necessarily Al-Queerda that engineered the explosions. There are many groups out there who would, in their eyes, stand to gain from them. It most likely is AQ, though.
This gives me an idea for a module series....


Just to put things in perspective: An estimated 12,000 people die every single year in the US alone because of drunk driving.

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:51 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:If you are involved IN ANY WAY with terrorism, and are caught, your trial must be completed within 30 days. If you are found guilty, you and every member of your immediate family are put to death by immolation. Children, women, the works. See how quickly shit like this ends.

Do you really think this? Killing innocent people whose crime is being relative of a terrorist as a form of reprisal? I remember Nazis did mass reprisals too against 'terrorists' relatives and supporters' (that in Italy too...) and the only result they got was more hatred and more enemies.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:14 pm 
 

Sotterraneo, I concur, and the Nazis are not the only historical example.  When trying to prove to the world that Uncle Sam is not a bloodthirsty tyrant, it's best if he doesn't coldly execute innocents.

In the interest of comity, I'm assuming that Deadlord36 is speaking out of frustration, anger and sadness-- he's not the only to be feeling these emotions today.  I think it's fair to allow people some irrational statements today, so long as they are not followed by irrational actions tomorrow.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:28 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:
If you are involved IN ANY WAY with terrorism, and are caught, your trial must be completed within 30 days. If you are found guilty, you and every member of your immediate family are put to death by immolation. Children, women, the works. See how quickly shit like this ends.

<< Am glad DEADLORD36 is not running the USA. We have enough enemies already.

Just a lurker.. Nice site 8)

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:44 pm 
 

From what I have read, and what is presented on television, those of Muslim faith do not cosider democracy to be high on their list of priorities when running their lives.

They appear to believe in much of the principles most of us believe in, such as honest and hard work and caring for those around you, but their desired society structure is one where their faith and their religious leaders lead society. These people are not elected.

There is an ongoing debate in Europe at present as to whether an essentially undemocratic, predominantly Muslim, country (Turkey) should join the EU. The EU being a fundimentally democratic structure.

I think we will find that there will always be problems as long as we try to merge these two diametrically opposed social structures. And while the majority of us will concentrate on what we have in common (honest, hard work, children, etc.), the angry and disillusioned will vent that anger.

They will continue to bomb, and our yobs will continue to kill their kids.

The problem is essentially one of trying to impose values from our society onto theirs. Why are we trying to make Afganistan and Iraq hold elections and set up democracies? While it is the way we lead our lives, it seems to be supremely arrogant to assume that everyone else should and must want to live their lives that way too.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:53 pm 
 

have watched all these comments with interest. tell you something tho folks, its amazing how much your view changes when someone real close to you is killed under such circumstances.

my attitude is if you are willing to take a life, you should be in the position to have yours taken from you.

i was staying at a friends in liverpool, IN toxteth at the time of the toxteth riots. he rushed out across the road to the shop to get a bottle of milk for his mum. a group of people came rushing down the street and got to him when he was in the middle of the road. one guy hit him with a metal bar across the head, killing him instantly, right in plain sight of us just about 30 yards away. for what? because he had a different skin colour.

one of the saddest days of my life - something i havent forgotten and doubt i ever will.

anyway  :?

Alan



  


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:07 pm 
 

I had a nice long political statement written out that I will not post at least at this point. I will say that I hope that everyone from UK on this site and all of their friends and family are all well after today however, I will state these facts:

9/11/2001 was not the start of this war. Iraq's invasion of neighboring Kuwait, 15 years ago started is what started this war. Al Qaeda was created by and large by Osama Bin Laden who created Al Qaeda because of his hatred of the US for coming to Saudi Arabia to defend it from attack by Iraq during the War in the Middle East.  Since its creation, Al Qaeda has mercilessly killed thousands of innocent people around the world long before they ever flew those planes into the twin towers killing thousands of more innocent lives. This is not about us trying to impose our government and societal beliefs upon them. We are trying to impose our societal beliefs on them as a result of them attacking and thousands of innocent people.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:37 pm 
 

I've read what you're writing, and knowing a little bit of the muslim faith, I believe it's a fact of culture clash.

We are considering the muslim faith from OUR point of view - which is a (BIG) error.

After we die, we have judgement and - i f found guilty - we have a hell, stocked with big devils with forks and flames everywhere.

After they die (serving the cause of Islam) they find a garden of delights with an endless number of virgin houris EACH day - they just have to choose.

The fact is that though this kind of beliefs, we fear death, and they don't.
So, passing the terrorists and their families at the stake doens't meet the purpose.

I'm not writing this to accept or legitimate what Al Quaeda is doing - but you have to understand your enemy to fight him. That's what Sun Tzu said.

And I'm sticking to his words.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:10 pm 
 

I love the sense of community, guys, but please, let's try to avoid posting too much religion/politics/inflamatory whatnot on here...somebody is bound to get really pissed off for no good reason...I can guarantee you don't want to hear my views on those topics, being the fun-lovin', pacifist, liberal-minded, eco-friendly, evolutionist, sociopath Canuck that I am.  

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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 7:37 pm 
 

I live and work down by London Bridge, and this morning I was woken up by the sirens - one then another, then another, eventually blurring together.  Later on, with no public transport and little traffic, and people walking everywhere, the streets have been eerily quiet.

What has struck me, as people have gone from surprise and incredulity to horror, was the calm, measured and stoic way in which everyone has coped with these attacks so far.

Thanks to those who have posted messages of support.  I feel proud of this city and its people today.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:55 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:9/11/2001 was not the start of this war. Iraq's invasion of neighboring Kuwait, 15 years ago started is what started this war.


Actually, Clarkie, there are two different wars being fought in the Middle East right now (at least; I'm speaking major engagements here).

To the Islamists, the Culture War began in the Crusades. Seriously. Since the time the crusaders poured out of the north through the Byzantine Empire and wrested control of the Levant, Islamic and Western cultures have clashed, and the modern Culture War is seen as merely one part of that by some. It was quiescent for some time due to the influence and power of the Sick Man of Europe, the Ottoman Empire. Combined with the Persian Empire, the two essentially held together the heartland of Islam under an ostensibly Islamic states, though the elites of both were highly secularized. Then Napoleon began the most recent pre-modern phase with the invasion of Egypt in 1798. That opened the door for an upsurge in British involvement in the Middle East which peaked with the design of the modern Arab states by Winston Churchill on a napkin and did not end until the Americans took over the British sphere iof influence in the 1950's.

The modern round in the Culture War began with the formation of the state of Israel and the essentially one-sided support of that state by the United States and most of the Western world. To the Jews, Israel was to be the homeland they needed for their cultural survival; to the local Arabs, the Palestinians, it was a form of "genocide light," as the powers-that-be exchanged one Diaspora for another. It also scared the hell out of the local states, as it showed in no uncertain terms to them that the powers-that-be (i.e., the U.S. and Britain) cared not one whit for local history, culture, or political integrity. To understand what this meant to the Palestinians, it was as if the U.S. had forced England to give up half its territory to the Welsh, or as if the U.K. had forced Americans to give up half the states to the Native Americans. All for crimes committed by the *Germans* (and, in a lesser sense, by all Western nations for centuries, back to the Romans). On a more personal note, it's like if Joe Smith across town has his television stolen by some guy from out of state, and the government comes in and gives Joe *your* television in reparations...

So, the formation of Israel and the one-sided support thereof has been a major factor in the modern Culture War, from the use of American veto in the U.N. to quash any resolutions against Israel to the shelling of Lebanese towns to take out Hizbullah mortar positions in response to the killings of Americans in the early 80's (do you have any idea what the kill zone is on a 16-inch round? The Lebanese sure do, thousands of them civilians "collateral damage").

Another major factor has been the Oil Wars. I won't get into the whole British and French occupation of the Middle East, merely the more recent American actions. These began in their modern form with the 1953 overthrow of the Iranian Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh by the C.I.A. (with British help; this was the major tipping point where America took over for the Brits in the Middle East). Mossadegh was a nationalist and a socialist, and nationalized the oil of the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (the predecessor of British Petroleum). Of course, that would not stand, so we overthrew him and his government, and re-installed the Shah as a direct puppet (where before he had been essentially a figurehead since 1909). The C.I.A. also trained the Iranian secret service in interrogation and torture methods, and with American assistance the Shah was able to crush any and all resistance to his rule... most notably, any secular resistance, from the fringe on down to the moderates, leaving only the religious fringe for the people to turn to. All this, of course, led eventually to the Iranian Revolution of 1979... blocwback in its purest form, really.

Then, of course, there was U.S. support for the various other tyrants of the Gulf States, most notably Saddam Hussein and the Saudi King and Princes. Another great convoluted mess. You also have to consider the fact that the U.S. not only supported Iraq with material and money during the Iran-Iraq war, it also supplied the Iranians through the Iran-Contra deals (an outgrowth of the October Surprise and the weapons-for-hostages deal of Reagan/Bush). Then, too, there are issues with Libya and Tunesia (mostly the French, there, though) and Morocco, not to mention Afghanistan (a great big can of worms even before the Soviet Invasion).

Essentially, the current war can be traced back to 1948 or thereabouts; that's when it started. And until 9/11, it was fought entirely in the Middle East, with the only American casualties being Marines and other military folk (including mercenaries, which we are currently using in Iraq under the ruberic "contractors"), American spies such as William Buckley (C.I.A. Chief of Beirut station, 1983), and such innocents as miscellaneous travellers who got in the way ("collateral damage" by our own definition of civilians).


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:09 pm 
 

Like I said earlier, I am not going to pursue the politics of this as I have my own opinion and it is probably best that I don't post any more on it as this is certainly not the place for it.  I will say one thing about Israel and the Middle East though, that A LOT of people may not realize.  If it wasn't for us basically forcing restraint on Israel, this "conflict" would have been over a very long time ago. If it wasnt for us there would be no Middle East, it would be Israel and some of the Arabs & Palestinians left over from the conflict who were fortunate enough to survive. That is where I will leave this argument.


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Post Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:13 pm 
 

rosenkav wrote:I've read what you're writing, and knowing a little bit of the muslim faith, I believe it's a fact of culture clash.


Very true, though your interpretation is a bit off.

What Al Qaeda and the followers of Bin Laden do is *not* in the traditions of Islam. It is a mortal sin to kill an innocent, woman, child, or man... the only "honorable" killing (and even then, it is to be avoided) is in open war with an aware and capable opponent.

Bin Laden and his ilk are more like death cultists than Muslims, but it only goes to show the desperation that the peoples of the Middle East have been driven to.

Paradise is, indeed, guaranteed to a jihadi, if he dies in a struggle for God. BUT, the jihadi must still be honoring the tenets of the Quran; if he is not, he is condemned regardless. And the Muslims have a hell that makes the Christian seem paradisical by comparison.

But that is neither here nor there, as Al Qaeda is no more a Muslim organization than the KKK or Aryan Sons are Christian organizations. Both claim to be, but follow their own warped beliefs, mutated through their own hatreds and biases and, in the case of Al Qaeda moreso than the KKK, tribal beliefs (though there's more than enough tribalism in KKK beliefs than you would think). All such groups are condemned by the mainstream of their respective faiths; it just so happens that, due to history, Al Qaeda has a LOT more resources to do what it wants than the other organizations of such ilk on this end of the spectrum. Think what it would be like today if the KKK had access to billions of dollars and men and women so desperate they would give their lives for the cause...


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:26 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:I love the sense of community, guys, but please, let's try to avoid posting too much religion/politics/inflamatory whatnot on here...somebody is bound to get really pissed off for no good reason...I can guarantee you don't want to hear my views on those topics, being the fun-lovin', pacifist, liberal-minded, eco-friendly, evolutionist, sociopath Canuck that I am.

Well said.  I am particularly impressed that you finally admitted to being a tree-hugging Canuck!

And with that, I'm locking this thread.  We all know it's off-topic, and here isn't the place to hash out these issues.  As Tyson has correctly pointed out, there is bound to be conflicting viewpoints on this, and needless flaring of tempers.  Direct your anger towards our own little eBay terrorists.

I have friends in London, too (who are thankfully okay), and our thoughts are with everyone in the UK tonight.  On that, I think we can all agree.  'Nuff said.

Foul

  
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