Poll: What editions of D&D/AD&D do you collect?
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Poll: Which editions of D&D/AD&D do you actively collect?

Original D&D only 4%       4%  [ 3 ]
1st Ed. AD&D only 3%       3%  [ 2 ]
2nd Ed. AD&D only 1%       1%  [ 1 ]
3.0/3.5 D&D only 0%       0%  [ 0 ]
OD&D/1st Ed. AD&D only 30%       30%  [ 21 ]
OD&D/1st Ed. AD&D/2nd Ed. AD&D only 23%       23%  [ 16 ]
OD&D/1st Ed. AD&D/2nd Ed. AD&D/3.0,3.5 D&D (ie. all versions) 30%       30%  [ 21 ]
1st Ed. AD&D/2nd Ed. AD&D only 9%       9%  [ 6 ]
Total votes : 70

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Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:31 pm 
 

dathon wrote:Seems quite a few people are talking around the edges of this question... and I've wondered how many folks are also collecting 3.0/3.5 Ed. D&D.

I actually only collect 1st ed. and a few choice bits of Moldvay era BECM stuff, but I did buy some of the FFE books that were ordered destroyed.

Paul


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Post Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:33 pm 
 

shadzar wrote:i refuse to acknowledge WotC or Hasbro products as being Dungeon and Dragons, even if they now own the name.

I find this amusing.  I'm certain that in the late '50s there were a lot of people who thought overhead valve engines were a passing phase, and that the flat-head Ford would never be eclipsed in terms of performance!  :P


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:16 pm 
 

shadzar wrote:i mean even their OGL only includes the d20 system, so people cant legally make stuff under AD&D for the people that love it.


I can't think of a single other company that allows people to make and sell products using their IP. Sounds like you're looking an awfully large gift-horse in the mouth.

and the whole ignorance or incompetence of the statement in one of the core rules for 3.0+, "rolling a d20 will result in an average roll of 10 or 11." ummm, no! rolling a d20 will results in an average roll of 1 through 20 as they all have the same 5% change to be rolled such as shown in the orange spined DMG explains.

they dont understand linear probability and just lying to people about how things works. not very trustworthy to me.


Each result is going to happen 5% of the time, yes, but the average value of the result is 10.5. They're not the ones that are confused about probability here.

and WotC like to "make the game easier for all to play", so they get more money, and are not afraid to sacrifice playability to do it.


3.0 is far, far, far more complicated than 1st/2nd edition. There are rules covering the vast majority of situations, instead of the DM winging the rules as he goes. Whether or not people think that's better is one thing, but they definately didn't make the game easier to play. I ran a big long session filled with combat last night (almost 9 hours, oi!), and even being a vet player and DM, I had to check the rules many times on exactly what spells and combat maneuvers did.

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Post Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:38 pm 
 

I did not mean to incite an argument, but simply to understand everyone's opinion.

As someone who works with statistics frequently (no pun intended), I  agree with GraysonAC's comment regarding the average (mean) value of the d20 probability distribution.  

Since a d20 roll generates a uniform random number, its mean (average) value is going to be (a+b)/2, where "a" and "b" are the endpoints of the distribution.  Thus, the average = (20+1)/2 = 10.5.

On that point, at least, WOTC is correct.

On page 10 of the 1E DMG, you can see a similar development for the probability density function of three 6-sided dice.  It's a Gaussian (bell-curve) distribution, with an average value of approx 11 that occurs approx 12% of the time.

My point is not to bore you with statistics, but to simply illustrate that's its a tricky science that sometimes seems counterintuitive.

That does not change the fact that the 3E or 3.5E rules may be too complex to be enjoyable.

As far as the licensing aspects are concerned, I have not read the OGL, but I gather that products for 3E and 3.5E must not be easily adaptable to 1E AD&D or OD&D.

I'd still be interested in hearing the opinions of others.  Maybe one day in the not-too-distant future I can find the time to play again; it would be a shame if the current products are too cumbersome for use with the old system.

Thanks,
Keith


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:53 pm 
 

Keith wrote:As far as the licensing aspects are concerned, I have not read the OGL, but I gather that products for 3E and 3.5E must not be easily adaptable to 1E AD&D or OD&D.


I don't know how they'd stop that though. Adventure-wise, there isn't really anything that would differentiate between 1st and 3rd edition. Go somewhere, kick in some doors, kill some bad guys, take their stuff :P

The OGL just says what you can and cannot use in your own product. Basically, anything that's in the [url="SRD"]The Hypertext d20 SRD (v3.5 d20 System Reference Document) :: d20srd.org[/url] can be used, and anything that isn't, can't. The SRD has almost all the rules, and is just missing a few basics like character creation and XP progression. So essentially, WotC wants to gaurantee that you buy the PHB/DMG, and then you can go nuts with 3rd party supplements.

If you're interested in getting into 3rd, I'd look up Necromancer games. Their official company motto is "3rd Edition Rules, 1st Edition Feel" :) They're one of the better 3rd party supplement producers as far as modules go. Rappan Athuk is absolutely awesome :)[/url]

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:37 am 
 

Thanks for the advice about Necromancer games.  I'll check into it.

Like many in this forum, I'm a "retired" DM reliving my youth by collecting D&D and 1E AD&D.

But I'd also like to learn about 3E and see whether it's a workable option for me once I do resume playing (which is probably a year or two down the road).

That's why I posed the question regarding people's objections.  I'm kinda looking for the good, bad and ugly about 3E.

Thanks much,
Keith

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:13 pm 
 

Hi Keith

Good d20/3/3.5e:

Mongoose do some nice books at very reasonable prices.
Fast Forward have brought out some interesting monster collections, although I felt that the artwork in the encyclopedia of Demons and Devils was a bit ropey in places.
AEG - After all they did World's Largest Dungeon which has to be seen to be believed.
I can't remember who did it but Iron Kingdoms Stuff is well worth a view, especially the Monsternomicon which is IMHO a work of genius

Will


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 12:39 pm 
 

wthomas wrote:Hi Keith

Good d20/3/3.5e:

Mongoose do some nice books at very reasonable prices.
Fast Forward have brought out some interesting monster collections, although I felt that the artwork in the encyclopedia of Demons and Devils was a bit ropey in places.
AEG - After all they did World's Largest Dungeon which has to be seen to be believed.
I can't remember who did it but Iron Kingdoms Stuff is well worth a view, especially the Monsternomicon which is IMHO a work of genius

Will


Agreed on Mongoose and AEG. Could not agree less on Fast Forward - they are the worst publisher I've ever seen. The quality of their books is simply atrocious. I think they've got a high school student doing their editing for them on a volunteer basis or something ;)

Mongoose, AEG, Sword & Sorcery (which includes Necromancer Games), Monte Cook's Malhavoc Press (MC was one of the original guys on Planescape), and Green Ronin are the companies I'd recommend for 3rd party stuff.

AEG stuff is often not well balanced, but they are often the best for flavour and world information. Mongoose, the exact opposite - they focus mostly on the 'crunchy bits'.
S&S can really be hit and miss - they've got some great stuff, and some fairly poor stuff, but they're the largest 3rd party publisher for d20 D&D stuff, and they've got a lot of it out there.
Malhavoc focuses on MC's 'Arcana Unearthed' line, which is an alternate ruleset. Some interesting stuff.
Green Ronin has put out the very popular Freeport series, which is fantastic. For my store, I do my best to keep some GR stuff in stock, just so I can encourage folks to try it :)

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 6:58 pm 
 

wthomas wrote:Hi Keith

Good d20/3/3.5e:

Mongoose do some nice books at very reasonable prices.
Fast Forward have brought out some interesting monster collections, although I felt that the artwork in the encyclopedia of Demons and Devils was a bit ropey in places.
AEG - After all they did World's Largest Dungeon which has to be seen to be believed.
I can't remember who did it but Iron Kingdoms Stuff is well worth a view, especially the Monsternomicon which is IMHO a work of genius

Will


Privateer Press does the Iron Kingdom setting/Warmachine game, and it is some of the best written stuff I've seen.

ShaneG.

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:15 pm 
 

Cool. I'll keep an eye out for it in my eBaying, see if I can find the CS :)

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:58 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:Could not agree less on Fast Forward - they are the worst publisher I've ever seen.


Fast Forward, generally speaking, was awful — and I say "was" because I believe the company is essentially past-tense. The most recent web-page update was in December, and Jim Ward, from what I've heard, now works with Aaron over at NobleKnight.com.

To be fair, I'll say two things in FFG's defense: 1. the idea to use spiral-binding on a couple of their releases was a good one (very nice for the DM to be be able to read a book without having to balance it, too); 2. I don't think FFG ever got a fair shake from some reviewers. ENWorld, in particular, just body-slammed every single thing FFG ever put out. It become sort of a joke: "who can write the funniest FFG review?"

Still, they should have tried actually editing their releases ... :)

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Post Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2005 12:32 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
GraysonAC wrote:Could not agree less on Fast Forward - they are the worst publisher I've ever seen.


Fast Forward, generally speaking, was awful — and I say "was" because I believe the company is essentially past-tense. The most recent web-page update was in December, and Jim Ward, from what I've heard, now works with Aaron over at NobleKnight.com.

To be fair, I'll say two things in FFG's defense: 1. the idea to use spiral-binding on a couple of their releases was a good one (very nice for the DM to be be able to read a book without having to balance it, too); 2. I don't think FFG ever got a fair shake from some reviewers. ENWorld, in particular, just body-slammed every single thing FFG ever put out. It become sort of a joke: "who can write the funniest FFG review?"

Still, they should have tried actually editing their releases ... :)


Glad to hear they're dying out. I'm not normally a mean guy, but man, putting out the drivel that they did and expecting folks to swallow it.. blech.

I definately agree with the spiral binding - on some books, that's a great idea. I've got a few copies of "Treasure Quests" that I haven't managed to sell off yet, and the binding is great for that kind of item. The book, however, is absolute ****. Not just editing, but game balance just goes right out the window. And the guys they had writing the books obviously had, at best, a tenous grasp of the 3rd edition rules (I just stumbled on an item in TQ that gives a -5 to enemies morale checks, and stuns them with no save for 3 rounds. There IS no morale in 3rd edition, and the stunning is just all sorts of wrong for balance reasons).

They needed an art department too. The maps in all the books of theirs I've seen are horrible. No interior detail at all, and a lot of the maps don't make any sense at all. For example, I just randomly flipped around TQ, and page 52 has a goblin den with no entrance. I kid you not.

I imagine it would be pretty hard to come up with a review that wasn't entirely negative ;)

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:07 am 
 

beermotor wrote:Well, one wonders if it is truly "collecting" in the strictest sense of the word. How collectible are books that are completely mass-produced? Not very.


Items don't have to be rare to be collected. If you have a bunch of 3rd edition books and materials, then you have assembled a collection, even though the books themselves aren't rare.

As for me, I collect it all, meaning everything from the original woodgrain box edition to present day v3.5 stuff.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 12:13 pm 
 

Doug Williams wrote:
beermotor wrote:Well, one wonders if it is truly "collecting" in the strictest sense of the word. How collectible are books that are completely mass-produced? Not very.


Items don't have to be rare to be collected. If you have a bunch of 3rd edition books and materials, then you have assembled a collection, even though the books themselves aren't rare.

As for me, I collect it all, meaning everything from the original woodgrain box edition to present day v3.5 stuff.


Usually things that are labeled collector's editon or collector's set turn out not to be collectible.  There was a "collectible" Star Trek boardgame that had a limited run of 40,000.  That's just a joke, and it now sells regularly on eBay for a few bucks, if that.  The OCE white box is an exception, though it still wasn't worth much just a few years ago.  

As for mass-produced, there are many instances of items that are mass-produced that become/became collectible such as baseball cards, Magic cards, comic books, and of course D&D items.  The trick is that at the time nobody realizes these things are collectible (ie. valuable) until much later.  The fact that most people now feel that 3.0/3.5 D&D items are not collectible could mean they will in fact become collectible in 20 years or they could turn out to be pretty worthless.  We'll just have to wait and see...

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:09 pm 
 

dathon wrote:
Doug Williams wrote:


I don't think 3.5 stuff will ever be collectible in a serious sense. Take a look at the 2nd Edition stuff - there was so much of it put out, that anyone who wants almost anything can just go to eBay and get it immediately.

And I suspect 3rd Edition is getting much higher print runs than 2nd Edition stuff did ;)

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:41 pm 
 

I somewhat agree. I print runs and the fact that so few things are really must have hard-to-find books mean it will be less so.

I think a few books, like Vile Darkness and Exalted Deeds, were not purchased ALOT, and the weird and distinct rules might cause them to go up in value later.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 6:37 pm 
 

Well, I'm collecting a bit at a time, when I get ahold of something I just don't want to let go.  I really enjoy the 2nd ed and some of the later 1st ed AD&D stuff to read through, the world building done in that time was incredible.  Ravenloft, Planescape, FR, Dragonlance, etc.  I've mostly played 3rd edition just because it was "handy" but am thinking about either trying an "old school" 1st ed AD&D or one of the throwback modules with 3rd ed rules.


I'd like to get some of the early stuff eventually, but it will definantly be a gradual step.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:59 am 
 

Reindeergamez wrote:Well, I'm collecting a bit at a time, when I get ahold of something I just don't want to let go. I really enjoy the 2nd ed and some of the later 1st ed AD&D stuff to read through, the world building done in that time was incredible. Ravenloft, Planescape, FR, Dragonlance, etc. I've mostly played 3rd edition just because it was "handy" but am thinking about either trying an "old school" 1st ed AD&D or one of the throwback modules with 3rd ed rules.


I'd like to get some of the early stuff eventually, but it will definantly be a gradual step.


i know i generally dig at 3e a lot, i don't intentionally do it, but i have my reasons and the main one is this. my daughter was invited to play a game of D&D by a friend at her school, as she had been mentioning playing 1e AD&D with me (good girl)....anyway, once they found out i play too, i was invited along. at first i was very enthusiastic, until i found out it was 3e.  :?  sooooo, i sat down and read up a little in the core rulebooks to try and familiarise myself. well i got about 20 pages into the players handbook and frankly, the whole thing totally turned me off.....the feel of it was so alien to me, i couldnt get my head around it. BUT so as not to let my heart rule my head so completely, i went along to give it a bash, mentioned i was totally unfamiliar to 3e, but would give it a go.

well you know what?

a. it took ONE HOUR for a group of 6 people to fight 9 orcs - the amount of calculating etc that was going on was like watching someone play warhammer or runequest.

b. one of the things i always loved about D&D / 1e AD&D was that the role-play element of the game was very important as the rules were generally rather "loose" - with 3e i found the whole thing.... *struggling for the right word*...... very wooden? to me it just didnt have the heart or depth that its earlier predecessors did.

but i persisted and i played the whole session. in the end, it was "ok" and i mentioned my thanks to them for inviting me along, but sadly, it just wasnt for me, as my heart just wasnt in that particular format. total respect to the DM tho, he was very good and really did well with the scenario etc....

on the way home, jessica said to me "dad, i dont really like that game, your one is much easier to play" .... awww bless her, what a sweetheart she is  :D

well i did give it a try, so there you go.

Al :)


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