New print(s) of the OCE set?
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Post Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 4:56 am 
 

Whew!  That's some incredible research!

Now if we can just make something comprehensible out of it.  :)  One thing I noticed as I skimmed through the listing:

If you assume the printing sequence is 5-6-7, then by definition, you should see some characteristics present in 5&6, and some characteristics present in 6&7, but never any characteristics present in 5&7 (excluding 6).  Obviously, they wouldn't have "regressed" by putting "old" characteristics from print 5 into print 7, skipping 6.

If you follow that theory, it's clear the sequence should be 5-7-6.  For the first two booklets, you don't see any characteristics present in 5 and 6, excluding 7.

This also holds up with the third booklet, except here, you need to switch print 6 with print 7.  Dunno if this matches with cover / staples, though.  And, the last two orange comments throw that out of whack... though I don't know how significant those ink splotches are.

Good work -- and more work ahead.

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Post Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 5:30 am 
 

Heh, heh.... the display would wrap over onto a new page there! :D

*points to the foot of the previous page for anyone else, please*

FoulFoot wrote:Now if we can just make something comprehensible out of it. :)

*g*. Was one reason why I was "holding". Have also tried to rewrite that concluding paragraph to make more sense!
However, there is undoubtedly an extra "whole" print (of the contents) given the points in red in the M&M.

Trying to figure out whether the other two volumes were reprinted at the same time is more "fun"...

FoulFoot wrote:If you assume the printing sequence is 5-6-7, then by definition, you should see some characteristics present in 5&6, and some characteristics present in 6&7, but never any characteristics present in 5&7 (excluding 6). Obviously, they wouldn't have "regressed" by putting "old" characteristics from print 5 into print 7, skipping 6.

Yes, there's a definite problem here.

btw. I was working from complete booklet sets, as issued, with enough staple rust to see that they weren't tampered with... "6" is one complete set. "7" is another.
Most of the minor points appear to indicate 5,7,6 (e.g. Damage at M&M 28, M&T 23).
It was that Balrog and Ent remaining in U&WA(6) which led me to order and label them 5,6,7 originally, thinking that those were oversights they didn't correct until later.
*
To go with 5,7,6 order almost needs me to presume that something happened along the lines of boxes of printed pages being laid aside and, for some reason, the printers pulling out a box of the old U&WA Balrog/Ent center pages at a later date, when they were compiling copies.

Input is definitely needed from <morgansurname> or anyone else with copies of the two (6,7) stock list variants in M&T.

The cover stock /and/ stapling were both totally different between 6 & 7, too, as appeared to be the case of those other copies I pointed out on eBay; and with <morgansurname>'s, at a guess.

==

FoulFoot wrote:This also holds up with the third booklet, except here, you need to switch print 6 with print 7. Dunno if this matches with cover / staples, though. And, the last two orange comments throw that out of whack... though I don't know how significant those ink splotches are.

IMO, significant enough in that they're consistent between prints 5 & 7, and that there's another point apparent at the start of the book (U&WA 4) which is only in print 6.

=
OK. Here's a wild guess...
Judging by the guillotining "problems" (see M&T 5-8 ), it almost looks as though the pages were printed in "8s", not "4s".
This would be fine for those books with 40 pages, but U&WA has only 36. So what do they do? Easy... run the sheet for the middle pages through twice, hence the Balrog/Ent "overstock" and inclusion in some later copies once they ran out of corrected versions. A lazy and cheap solution.
*
Is that a wild enough guess, d'ya think, Scott? :P
...
(Trouble is that the paper stock also seems consistent within copy 6 (for the Balrog & Ent pages in U&WA), but that /might/ not be an issue if they only ever used one paper stock for the contents, as opposed to the various card stocks for the covers. Having pinged the corners of the pages, I can't quite convince myself of that: and I have no philatelist's micrometer or anything like that around here! :?).

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 3:02 pm 
 

Checked my "6th print" against your list. My copy matches exactly the one you labeled (6) with the following exceptions:

harami2000 wrote:M&M
- Relabeled as "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR" + price column, Rates for Dragon & "Complete Catalog" on the last line (7)
- "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR", no price column, no Rates for Dragon & no "Complete Catalog", but still with "booklet only" prices in the description texts (6)
(n.b. both (6) and (7) have Dragon "Published 8 times yearly" -- uncorrected?)


Mine matched the description of (7)

harami2000 wrote:M&T
5-8 pages guillotined short at base (5,7) level at base (6) -- is this consistent?


the pages in mine are cut short.

harami2000 wrote:9 plus "Tolkein" - uncorrected all - of course


??? cannot find this

harami2000 wrote:30.sword purposes --bottom left of first "C" in "slaying (Chaotic)" broken (6 only)


The C is whole in mine

harami2000 wrote:31.POTIONS -- "self-explanarorv" -- uncorrected -- all


Is this your typo? The tail of the y is chopped off on mine, but explanatory is spelled correctly...

Also page 18 and 23 have ink blots in the margins...


harami2000 wrote:U&WA
4 possible weakness in dark area at bottom left of dungeon map (6 only)


I do not observe this

harami2000 wrote:36 consistent ink splotches around "FIGHT ON!" (5,7 only)[/color]


Just a tiny dot about a 1/4" under the F

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Post Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 3:08 pm 
 

All are good theories.  My thought in switching the sequence back to 5-6-7 for the third book only is that TSR was doing the mix-and-match game -- so the third book, for example, might be a 6th print placed in a 7th print set.  Which makes a nightmare for us, but only if we insist on looking at the books as a set, rather than as individuals that may have been cross-pollinated when TSR was assembling sets (and using any overstock they had on hand at the time).

As far as running off extra pages and inserting them -- it's possible, I suppose.  A high-power microscope could resolve the pattern/grain of the paper, which you might be able to match up.  That's getting a bit extreme, though.

The fact that there's different printings, by the way, doesn't really surprise me (especially with the OCE).  They ran off tons of copies of the OCE (and probably much later than 1979, too).  The OCE was D&D's "signature" item for a long time, and as long as people were still buying it, they would have been putting in regular reprint orders.  It's not unreasonable to assume that they fixed some errors along the way.

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Post Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 5:15 pm 
 

Thanks for checking!

McDuff wrote:Checked my "6th print" against your list. My copy matches exactly the one you labeled (6) with the following exceptions:

harami2000 wrote:M&M
- Relabeled as "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR" + price column, Rates for Dragon & "Complete Catalog" on the last line (7)
- "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR", no price column, no Rates for Dragon & no "Complete Catalog", but still with "booklet only" prices in the description texts (6)
(n.b. both (6) and (7) have Dragon "Published 8 times yearly" -- uncorrected?)


Mine matched the description of (7)

Hrmm...

So you have a M&T missing "ENCUMBERANCE" on the top line of page 15 (i.e. "6"), but with a price column and "Complete Catalog" on the last line of the Stock List, page 36 (i.e. "7")?

15.1 "ENCUMBERANCE-" - present (5,7), missing (6)

But you do have the Balrogs & Ents on the tables on the middle pages of U&WA...? :)

18. last "12" line "Balrogs" and "Ents" (5,6) blank and "Treants" (7)
19.Dragon Types/10. "Balrogs" (5,6) blank (7)

Not bad for an OCE, then...? :D


=
(Noted the other points, thank you. Won't try to muddy the waters further with those just now! Is possible that some of the minor printing blobs, cuts, etc., only exist on part of a print run... the trick was to see whether they continued into the next, to help determine a sequence... /if/ possible!) ;)

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 5:36 pm 
 

FoulFoot wrote:All are good theories. My thought in switching the sequence back to 5-6-7 for the third book only is that TSR was doing the mix-and-match game -- so the third book, for example, might be a 6th print placed in a 7th print set. Which makes a nightmare for us, but only if we insist on looking at the books as a set, rather than as individuals that may have been cross-pollinated when TSR was assembling sets (and using any overstock they had on hand at the time).

If the cross-pollination happened, it would have had to have been at the collation stage, I think (for those book sets at least).
The covers and stapling are consistent within those sets as far as I can tell, so it's not as though a "whole" odd book was simply thrown into another box. (Of course, we both know well that this happened elsewhere and that box printing was also a continuous process...).

(Apologies for the lousy scans: color reproduction is /not/ good with this scanner! I did scan each image in one pass to try to minimise the variations).

Image
(the color of ink in the "Dungeons & Dragons" titles is a lot duller/darker on "6", especially the green and blue- even allowing for differences in cardstock).

Image
(inside back cover of U&WT is pinkish and more textured on "7", but darker, greenish and with less texture on "6".
"5" is even smoother and white, btw).

Image
(longer, shinier staples on "5" and "7"...
This was one of the things causing me trouble because it looked as though they'd changed and then reverted back. However the staple positioning is also more consistent on "7", so I used that as a further excuse to keep the 5/6/7 order, initially; even though it might be more indicative of a /long/ print run (of all books) than a different (automatic) stapler.
Whether other similar copies to "7" share this property, I dunno...).


FoulFoot wrote:The fact that there's different printings, by the way, doesn't really surprise me (especially with the OCE). They ran off tons of copies of the OCE (and probably much later than 1979, too). The OCE was D&D's "signature" item for a long time, and as long as people were still buying it, they would have been putting in regular reprint orders.

*nods*. Last OCE sold by TSR in the UK was 1985 (at least), as mentioned in passing on the OCE prices thread.

FoulFoot wrote:It's not unreasonable to assume that they fixed some errors along the way.

Agreed, as well as picking up fresh dents, etc., on the plates.
Was certainly one of the reasons I noted the "uncorrected - all" errors, in case they /eventually/ fixed those.
For example, the "weresolves" is a sloppy one, since it was correct in the 4- print before they re-set the text, etc. (and was still correct on the newer ref. sheets, too!).

Am kinda surprised they /never/ corrected "Tolkein", though! :P


===


[ed.] => "the color of ink in the "Dungeons & Dragons" titles is a lot duller/darker on "6"" (not "7", duh... *shakes head*).
The difference is a lot more obvious than it appears in those scans, btw.

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 7:46 pm 
 

Just wanted to add a note of thanks for all your hard work, Harami.  I'll be comparing your notes to mine and will send you a detailed list.  (I've already confirmed a few interesting things, such as this):
harami2000 wrote:37 -- two lines down from previous -- "of" in "of course the person" appears replaced? (all)

Mine shows a slight flaw in the word "of", presumably this is why it was replaced... :idea:

I won't bog down the thread with minute details as we're focussing on the 6th/7th here, but I will go through each data point and compare.

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Post Posted: Tue May 10, 2005 6:32 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Hrmm...

So you have a M&T missing "ENCUMBERANCE" on the top line of page 15 (i.e. "6"), but with a price column and "Complete Catalog" on the last line of the Stock List, page 36 (i.e. "7")?

15.1 "ENCUMBERANCE-" - present (5,7), missing (6)

But you do have the Balrogs & Ents on the tables on the middle pages of U&WA...? :)

18. last "12" line "Balrogs" and "Ents" (5,6) blank and "Treants" (7)
19.Dragon Types/10. "Balrogs" (5,6) blank (7)



Correct on all counts. Of course we are talking about the Men & Magic not the M&T...

The staples on mine are the longer shiner type but they are set further apart...similar to (5).

Goodness, I have never looked this close at any of the items I own.  I do not envy you the task you have undertaken.

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:03 pm 
 

Any further input on this thread?

(along the lines of the PotVQ thread, I've renamed this thread to hopefully focus so more attention on it).

Foul

  

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:05 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
M&M

36 - Relabeled as "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR" + price column, Rates for Dragon & "Complete Catalog" on the last line (7)
- "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR", no price column, no Rates for Dragon & no "Complete Catalog", but still with "booklet only" prices in the description texts (6)
(n.b. both (6) and (7) have Dragon "Published 8 times yearly" -- uncorrected?)



Since I've picked up a '7th' print OCE, the only real difference is that both my 6th and 7th have a stock list like another has also posted. Other then that a good majority of the list matches, maybe a couple things (blotches for one) does not.
Also the staples of my 6th are longer then my 7th, though I have not compared to the other white box sets (non-OCE).
Surprised this hasn't been noted in the Updates that followed since last year.

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:27 pm 
 

If I'm parsing the information corrected, I don't see mentions of the differences in the PDF version as seen on RPGNow.

http://watermark.rpgnow.com/pdf_preview ... sample.pdf

The biggest differences thus far are the presence of the word FORWARD at the top of page 3. And the switching of hobbit to halfling on page 6 at the end first sentence of the Fighting-Men section.

Does anyone else have a physical version which corresponds to the pdf version on RPGNow?[/b]

I haven't pruchased the RPGNow scan, but I'm tempted to now, to see what other corrections might be in this version.

  

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 5:06 pm 
 

Busman wrote:If I'm parsing the information corrected, I don't see mentions of the differences in the PDF version as seen on RPGNow.

http://watermark.rpgnow.com/pdf_preview ... sample.pdf

The biggest differences thus far are the presence of the word FORWARD at the top of page 3. And the switching of hobbit to halfling on page 6 at the end first sentence of the Fighting-Men section.

Does anyone else have a physical version which corresponds to the pdf version on RPGNow?[/b]

I haven't pruchased the RPGNow scan, but I'm tempted to now, to see what other corrections might be in this version.


Well I'd say that it was digitally altered to include those.  And not every page is OCRed.

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Post Posted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:40 pm 
 

Plaag wrote:
Well I'd say that it was digitally altered to include those.  And not every page is OCRed.

ShaneG.


It's certainly a real possibility.

EDIT: Though everything else is faithfully (re)created there. Hyphens, line breaks at the same place, missing dots on the index page, etc.

Seems odd that they would make those changes but not others.

At this point I think I'm resigned to purchase the full version and see if there are spelling corrections and such which might suggest an editor during the creation of the PDF.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:20 am 
 

I picked up an OCE recently that appears to be consistent with the set previously labeled 6.  The U & WA is badly miscut, about 1/2 inch narrower at the top than the bottom.  Does anyone else have one like that?

  


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 9:24 am 
 

Busman wrote:
Plaag wrote:Well I'd say that it was digitally altered to include those.  And not every page is OCRed.


It's certainly a real possibility.


I agree completely:  given that TSR was hit by the ERB and Tolkien estates with C&D letters (if not actual lawsuits??), and WotC was nailed by Kenzer & Co. for the Dragon archive for IP infringement, I'm sure that the OCE scans were gone-over with a fine-tooth comb before being released in .pdf format.  

Busman wrote:EDIT: Though everything else is faithfully (re)created there. Hyphens, line breaks at the same place, missing dots on the index page, etc.

Seems odd that they would make those changes but not others.


Not when you consider that WotC was only concerned about IP infringement:  otherwise, no need to fix anything else.

Busman wrote:At this point I think I'm resigned to purchase the full version and see if there are spelling corrections and such which might suggest an editor during the creation of the PDF.


Sounds good, keep us posted! :D  IIRC, the guy who actually performed the scans for the .pdf posts to Finarvyn's OD&D boards, so you might try to dig him up there:  http://odd74.proboards76.com/


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Post Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 12:25 pm 
 

grodog wrote:
Sounds good, keep us posted! :D  IIRC, the guy who actually performed the scans for the .pdf posts to Finarvyn's OD&D boards, so you might try to dig him up there:  http://odd74.proboards76.com/


Ah, thanks for the link!

  
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