FoulFoot wrote:From the description of the Sixth print:

References to Hobbits and Ents have been changed to Halflings and Treants (see page 9 of Men & Magic), due to copyright conflicts with the Tolkien estate (with the exception of a single leftover reference on pg 6 to Hobbits!)

Nice try, though.
Foul

*g*. Yeah, nice try! *g*. sry!
The refugee Balrog hiding behind the potion of Fire Resistance would've been a better "spot", phps.

Since someone's finally making a move, I'll drop this in here for now.
(Will correct and add in Deimos's copy (5A) when poss.)

=


"Non priced" (i.e. no "$3.50" on cover) booklets.
- Only checked two copies of "5th" for consistency
- "5", "6", "7" are numbers for my convenience only since there may be further "hidden" printings, plus other cover variants).
- Notes in red are more significant points. Orange, somewhat significant.
- Minor printing flaws observed may not be significant in the end analysis, but could be of use for chronological purposes esp. if they occurred between prints. (n.b. not every single one listed here).

M&M

6.11 "hobbits" -- uncorrected -- all
8 Hobbits & Balrog (5) Halflings & Dragon (6,7)
9 Hobbits, Ents, Balrogs (5) Halflings, Treants, <blank> (6,7)
9.3 Netrality -- uncorrected - all
13.7 "so long as they" -- most of "as" and bottom-left of "a" missing -- uncorrected -- all
15.1 "ENCUMBERANCE-" - present (5,7), missing (6)
23.11 "(i.e, a Balrog)," (5) -- removed (6,7)
28.last "e" in "possess" broken (6 only)
30.18 "u" in "required" broken -- all
30.18 "st" in against broken (5) -- repaired (6,7)
34.20 "c" in "magic" broken (5) -- repaired (6,7)
36 "PRODUCTS LIST" & totally different format, ending with "Complete Catalog" and "TSR HOBBIES" + address (5)
- Relabeled as "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR" + price column, Rates for Dragon & "Complete Catalog" on the last line (7)
- "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR", no price column, no Rates for Dragon & no "Complete Catalog", but still with "booklet only" prices in the description texts (6)
(n.b. both (6) and (7) have Dragon "Published 8 times yearly" -- uncorrected?)

M&T
1 image labeled "Nazgul" (5) -- title removed (6,7)
3 "% In Liar" -- uncorrected - all
3 "Balrogs" (5) -- whole line removed (6,7)
4 "Ents" (5) Treants" (6,7)
4.near end "Large Insects.. 2-16" "16" OK (5) "16" broken at top (6,7)
5-8 pages guillotined short at base (5,7) level at base (6) -- is this consistent?
7.ORCS para "Tolkein" ref (5) -- removed and para reformatted (6,7)
7."Balrog… 25%/100 Orcs…" present (5) -- whole line removed (6,7)
8 "Lord Sunsany" -- uncorrected -- all
9 "Barrow Wights (per Tolkein)" (5) -- "Wights" and para reformatted; end of last line "energy by a Wight becomes a Wight" left duplicated in previous font (6,7) - plus "Tolkein" - uncorrected all - of course
9 "The Nazgul of Tolkein…" sentence (5) -- removed and para reformatted (6,7)
13 image labeled "Balrog" (5) -- title removed (6,7)
14 "BALROGS" paragraph/description (5) -- removed and replaced by Tom Wham artwork (6,7)
15.22 broken "h" in "such" (7 only)
16.ENTS refs to Ents (5) -- replaced by Treants and para reformatted (6,7)
17.3 "e" in "they" blotched (5) -- repaired (6,7)
17.ROCS para "Eagles of Tolkein…" ref (5) -- removed and para reformatted (6,7)
20 "Tyrannasaurus Rex" -- uncorrected - all
22 Treasure Type F -- missing hook in "r" of "any other" -- uncorrected -- all
23.2 last "s" in "Silver Pieces" more faded/damaged at end (in 6)
23 Sword 61-65 - +3 vs…. "Ents" (5) -- "Treants" and "65" damaged (6,7)
23 Sword 81-82 -- "8" of "81" damaged (6 only)
27.sword alignment - ref to Ents (5) -- changed to Treants and para reformatted (6,7)
30.sword purposes --bottom left of first "C" in "slaying (Chaotic)" broken (6 only)
31.POTIONS -- "self-explanarorv" -- uncorrected -- all
32.potion of Animal Control -- damage to top of "O" in "One turn" (6,7 only)
32.potion of Fire Resistance -- "Balrog immolation" -- uncorrected -- all
32.(line above previous Balrog ref.) -- "Fire" (5) in "Dragon Fire" -- word replaced/in slightly different font (6,7) (slight difference between 6 & 7, too?))
32.potion of Treasure Finding -- break(?) in "c" of "considerable" (7 only)
35.6 bottom first "f" in "Staff" broken -- all
35.Staff of Wizardry -- mark at top/above "y" in "how many and which kind" -- uncorrected -- all
36.16 -- break at left side of "v" in "Evil High Priests" (5 only)
37.Helm of Chaos -- "sucha" (one word) -- uncorrected -- all
37 -- two lines down from previous -- "of" in "of course the person" appears replaced? (all)
37.Drums of Panic -- ink spotting in middle of lines around "…these… morale…" (5 only)

U&WA
4 possible weakness in dark area at bottom left of dungeon map (6 only)
5.6 "2" of "2 000" damaged (all)
5.17 word "gentle" at end of line appears replaced, with vertical line before it (all)
5.2nd last line. "r" in "door" with blob at top (all)
8.10 base of "gg" in "suggested" trimmed (all)
9.7 damage/splotch above "d" in "required" (6,7 only)
9.18 Hobbits (5) Halflings (6,7)
9.27 "their" in "their normal shape," appears replaced (all)
10.Monster Level 3/10 -- "Giant Weasles" -- uncorrected all
11.Monster Level 6/9 -- Balrogs (5) Spectres (6,7)
11 top of "C" in "Cyborgs" trimmed (6,7 only)
13.last "REF" para. "min" in "…seemingly empty trunk…" apparently replaced/damaged -- uncorrected all
14 image labeled "Nazgul" (5) -- title removed (6,7)
14.next line "THE" in "THE WILDERNESS" damaged (6,7 only)
15.1 "Grayhawk" -- uncorrected -- all
15.5 top of "ng" in "dungeon" trimmed off (6,7)
15.table "Balrogs" and "Ents" (5) "Chmrs." and "Treants" (6,7)
15.Magic-Users -- top-left of "M" trimmed off (6,7)
16. MOVEMENT table -- "Balrog" line (5) removed (6,7)
16.line before table -- middle of first "l" in "normal flying" possibly broken (6 only)
17.6 top left of "m" in "movement" broken (5 only)
17.14 middle of second "s" in "surprised" poss. broken (7 only)
17. below efreet pic. Diagonal "cut" line up from first "V" in "OUTDOOR SURVIVAL" (7 only)
17. second last line. first "e" in "waterbourne" broken (7 only)
18.4 first "M" in "MONSTERS" broken at top left (6 only)
18. last "12" line "Balrogs" and "Ents" (5,6) blank and "Treants" (7)
19.2 "Weresolves" -- uncorrected -- all
19.Dragon Types/10. "Balrogs" (5,6) blank (7)
25.13 top of first "P" in "Paper" trimmed (6,7) and large blotch at bottom left of "h" in "should" (6,7)
25 image labeled "Ent" (5) -- title removed (6,7)
31.6 "s" in "sheared" damaged -- all
31.8th last. Spot under"w" of "will" (6 only)
32.5,6. end of line "string…would" weak print (5 only)
33.2nd last. consistent ink splotches around "In Sail" (5,7 only)
36 consistent ink splotches around "FIGHT ON!" (5,7 only)

=


Can see how this could be read to give an order of printing 5,7,6 given various printing flaws and the staple similarities between 5 and 7. In this case, the price column in the stock list in 6 could've been removed when they, and the catalog, were no longer valid, rather than having been "missed" first time, as I thought initially... However, that scenario would also require some central pages of U&WA (with the Balrogs and Ents) to have been "stacked away" for compilation later.
*thinks again*

Any cross-comparisons of copies welcome & appreciated. <morgansurname> certainly (*points to top of thread*), please.
("More to add", no doubt... ).

Heh, heh.... the display would wrap over onto a new page there!

*points to the foot of the previous page for anyone else, please*

FoulFoot wrote:Now if we can just make something comprehensible out of it.

*g*. Was one reason why I was "holding". Have also tried to rewrite that concluding paragraph to make more sense!
However, there is undoubtedly an extra "whole" print (of the contents) given the points in red in the M&M.

Trying to figure out whether the other two volumes were reprinted at the same time is more "fun"...

FoulFoot wrote:If you assume the printing sequence is 5-6-7, then by definition, you should see some characteristics present in 5&6, and some characteristics present in 6&7, but never any characteristics present in 5&7 (excluding 6). Obviously, they wouldn't have "regressed" by putting "old" characteristics from print 5 into print 7, skipping 6.

Yes, there's a definite problem here.

btw. I was working from complete booklet sets, as issued, with enough staple rust to see that they weren't tampered with... "6" is one complete set. "7" is another.
Most of the minor points appear to indicate 5,7,6 (e.g. Damage at M&M 28, M&T 23).
It was that Balrog and Ent remaining in U&WA(6) which led me to order and label them 5,6,7 originally, thinking that those were oversights they didn't correct until later.
*
To go with 5,7,6 order almost needs me to presume that something happened along the lines of boxes of printed pages being laid aside and, for some reason, the printers pulling out a box of the old U&WA Balrog/Ent center pages at a later date, when they were compiling copies.

Input is definitely needed from <morgansurname> or anyone else with copies of the two (6,7) stock list variants in M&T.

The cover stock /and/ stapling were both totally different between 6 & 7, too, as appeared to be the case of those other copies I pointed out on eBay; and with <morgansurname>'s, at a guess.

==

FoulFoot wrote:This also holds up with the third booklet, except here, you need to switch print 6 with print 7. Dunno if this matches with cover / staples, though. And, the last two orange comments throw that out of whack... though I don't know how significant those ink splotches are.

IMO, significant enough in that they're consistent between prints 5 & 7, and that there's another point apparent at the start of the book (U&WA 4) which is only in print 6.

=
OK. Here's a wild guess...
Judging by the guillotining "problems" (see M&T 5-8 ), it almost looks as though the pages were printed in "8s", not "4s".
This would be fine for those books with 40 pages, but U&WA has only 36. So what do they do? Easy... run the sheet for the middle pages through twice, hence the Balrog/Ent "overstock" and inclusion in some later copies once they ran out of corrected versions. A lazy and cheap solution.
*
Is that a wild enough guess, d'ya think, Scott?
...
(Trouble is that the paper stock also seems consistent within copy 6 (for the Balrog & Ent pages in U&WA), but that /might/ not be an issue if they only ever used one paper stock for the contents, as opposed to the various card stocks for the covers. Having pinged the corners of the pages, I can't quite convince myself of that: and I have no philatelist's micrometer or anything like that around here! ).

All are good theories.  My thought in switching the sequence back to 5-6-7 for the third book only is that TSR was doing the mix-and-match game -- so the third book, for example, might be a 6th print placed in a 7th print set.  Which makes a nightmare for us, but only if we insist on looking at the books as a set, rather than as individuals that may have been cross-pollinated when TSR was assembling sets (and using any overstock they had on hand at the time).

As far as running off extra pages and inserting them -- it's possible, I suppose.  A high-power microscope could resolve the pattern/grain of the paper, which you might be able to match up.  That's getting a bit extreme, though.

The fact that there's different printings, by the way, doesn't really surprise me (especially with the OCE).  They ran off tons of copies of the OCE (and probably much later than 1979, too).  The OCE was D&D's "signature" item for a long time, and as long as people were still buying it, they would have been putting in regular reprint orders.  It's not unreasonable to assume that they fixed some errors along the way.

Foul

FoulFoot wrote:All are good theories. My thought in switching the sequence back to 5-6-7 for the third book only is that TSR was doing the mix-and-match game -- so the third book, for example, might be a 6th print placed in a 7th print set. Which makes a nightmare for us, but only if we insist on looking at the books as a set, rather than as individuals that may have been cross-pollinated when TSR was assembling sets (and using any overstock they had on hand at the time).

If the cross-pollination happened, it would have had to have been at the collation stage, I think (for those book sets at least).
The covers and stapling are consistent within those sets as far as I can tell, so it's not as though a "whole" odd book was simply thrown into another box. (Of course, we both know well that this happened elsewhere and that box printing was also a continuous process...).

(Apologies for the lousy scans: color reproduction is /not/ good with this scanner! I did scan each image in one pass to try to minimise the variations).


(the color of ink in the "Dungeons & Dragons" titles is a lot duller/darker on "6", especially the green and blue- even allowing for differences in cardstock).


(inside back cover of U&WT is pinkish and more textured on "7", but darker, greenish and with less texture on "6".
"5" is even smoother and white, btw).


(longer, shinier staples on "5" and "7"...
This was one of the things causing me trouble because it looked as though they'd changed and then reverted back. However the staple positioning is also more consistent on "7", so I used that as a further excuse to keep the 5/6/7 order, initially; even though it might be more indicative of a /long/ print run (of all books) than a different (automatic) stapler.
Whether other similar copies to "7" share this property, I dunno...).

FoulFoot wrote:The fact that there's different printings, by the way, doesn't really surprise me (especially with the OCE). They ran off tons of copies of the OCE (and probably much later than 1979, too). The OCE was D&D's "signature" item for a long time, and as long as people were still buying it, they would have been putting in regular reprint orders.

*nods*. Last OCE sold by TSR in the UK was 1985 (at least), as mentioned in passing on the OCE prices thread.

FoulFoot wrote:It's not unreasonable to assume that they fixed some errors along the way.

Agreed, as well as picking up fresh dents, etc., on the plates.
Was certainly one of the reasons I noted the "uncorrected - all" errors, in case they /eventually/ fixed those.
For example, the "weresolves" is a sloppy one, since it was correct in the 4- print before they re-set the text, etc. (and was still correct on the newer ref. sheets, too!).

Am kinda surprised they /never/ corrected "Tolkein", though!


===


[ed.] => "the color of ink in the "Dungeons & Dragons" titles is a lot duller/darker on "6"" (not "7", duh... *shakes head*).
The difference is a lot more obvious than it appears in those scans, btw.

harami2000 wrote:Hrmm...

So you have a M&T missing "ENCUMBERANCE" on the top line of page 15 (i.e. "6"), but with a price column and "Complete Catalog" on the last line of the Stock List, page 36 (i.e. "7")?

15.1 "ENCUMBERANCE-" - present (5,7), missing (6)

But you do have the Balrogs & Ents on the tables on the middle pages of U&WA...?

18. last "12" line "Balrogs" and "Ents" (5,6) blank and "Treants" (7)
19.Dragon Types/10. "Balrogs" (5,6) blank (7)

Correct on all counts. Of course we are talking about the Men & Magic not the M&T...

The staples on mine are the longer shiner type but they are set further apart...similar to (5).

Goodness, I have never looked this close at any of the items I own.  I do not envy you the task you have undertaken.

harami2000 wrote:
M&M

36 - Relabeled as "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR" + price column, Rates for Dragon & "Complete Catalog" on the last line (7)
- "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR", no price column, no Rates for Dragon & no "Complete Catalog", but still with "booklet only" prices in the description texts (6)
(n.b. both (6) and (7) have Dragon "Published 8 times yearly" -- uncorrected?)

Since I've picked up a '7th' print OCE, the only real difference is that both my 6th and 7th have a stock list like another has also posted. Other then that a good majority of the list matches, maybe a couple things (blotches for one) does not.
Also the staples of my 6th are longer then my 7th, though I have not compared to the other white box sets (non-OCE).
Surprised this hasn't been noted in the Updates that followed since last year.

ShaneG.

Busman wrote:If I'm parsing the information corrected, I don't see mentions of the differences in the PDF version as seen on RPGNow.

http://watermark.rpgnow.com/pdf_preview ... sample.pdf

The biggest differences thus far are the presence of the word FORWARD at the top of page 3. And the switching of hobbit to halfling on page 6 at the end first sentence of the Fighting-Men section.

Does anyone else have a physical version which corresponds to the pdf version on RPGNow?[/b]

I haven't pruchased the RPGNow scan, but I'm tempted to now, to see what other corrections might be in this version.

Well I'd say that it was digitally altered to include those.  And not every page is OCRed.

ShaneG.

I picked up an OCE recently that appears to be consistent with the set previously labeled 6.  The U & WA is badly miscut, about 1/2 inch narrower at the top than the bottom.  Does anyone else have one like that?

grodog wrote:
Sounds good, keep us posted!  IIRC, the guy who actually performed the scans for the .pdf posts to Finarvyn's OD&D boards, so you might try to dig him up there:  http://odd74.proboards76.com/

Ah, thanks for the link!