New print(s) of the OCE set?
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Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:49 pm 
 

I just received my first white box. I know...not a huge victory, but I got it for a seemingly good price currently and with an additional supplement and the reference sheets. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :EOAB:US:6

I also have additional copies of the three booklets. My question is this: are there different appearances and textures to the OCE 6th printings of the booklets? I note four differences right away:

1. The color of one set is a little darker, richer in color if you will and has more of the pseudo leather wrinkles than the others.
2. The staples are set in different locations of the side (i.e. one set has the two staples closer to the top of the spine than the other).
3. The print of the outer cover and inner cover (dragon pic) is offset on one set. (i.e. a little higher).
4. The staples on one set are shiny, the other is a little rusty

Summary:

1st set: Darker richer brown with more wrinkles, staples closer to the bottom, print lower, staples shiny

2nd set: Lighter smoother cover, staples closer to the top, print higher, staples a little rusty.

Any ideas?


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 7:19 pm 
 

morgansurname wrote:I just received my first white box. I know...not a huge victory, but I got it for a seemingly good price currently and with an additional supplement and the reference sheets. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... :EOAB:US:6

I also have additional copies of the three booklets. My question is this: are there different appearances and textures to the OCE 6th printings of the booklets? I note four differences right away:

1. The color of one set is a little darker, richer in color if you will and has more of the pseudo leather wrinkles than the others.
2. The staples are set in different locations of the side (i.e. one set has the two staples closer to the top of the spine than the other).
3. The print of the outer cover and inner cover (dragon pic) is offset on one set. (i.e. a little higher).
4. The staples on one set are shiny, the other is a little rusty

Summary:

1st set: Darker richer brown with more wrinkles, staples closer to the bottom, print lower, staples shiny

2nd set: Lighter smoother cover, staples closer to the top, print higher, staples a little rusty.

Any ideas?


My guess based on your description would be that one set is a sixth print(1st set listed with the wrinklier,darker, & richer color covers) and the other set of booklets are fifth print booklets(2nd set listed with lighter color smoother cover).  Here is a link to the Acaeum page with descriptions:
http://www.acaeum.com/DDIndexes/SetPages/Original.html

Hope that helps. :D


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 8:28 pm 
 

I agree with bclarkie and would add that the following is the fastest way to tell whether the books are 6th prints (OCE set) or earlier. In all of the OD&D Box sets previous to the 6th Printing:

References to Hobbits and Ents (see page 9 of Men & Magic) are still present


In the 6th prints (OCE set) the men and magic books will list them (still on page 9) as Halflings and Treants instead of Hobbits and Ents.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 1:37 am 
 

Thanks for the replies.

Yep, I started at the acaeum description.  That was what made me suspicious and confounded:  Both sets state halflings and treants...no mention of hobbits or ents!


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:06 am 
 

morgansurname wrote:Thanks for the replies.

Yep, I started at the acaeum description. That was what made me suspicious and confounded: Both sets state halflings and treants...no mention of hobbits or ents!

Heya! Good spot there, I think... :)

Wouldn't surprise me too much: I think there's still plenty of research to be done with the OD&D books.
Was very slowly putting together a post on those and had noted the more obvious pseudo-leather texture/color on the latest OCE books I'd picked up, but couldn't find my other set to compare... It wouldn't be the only cardstock variation in the series. ;)
Might be giving a nudge for scans. :P

Could you do a double-check to ensure there are no internal differences, please.
(The stock list is usually a good place to start, but that might've been "frozen" by the time the OCE set came out).

  

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:28 am 
 

Dug out my two sets of OD&D - the one I bought without the box and the other a fifth print, and tried to check.

While I can't spot no differences on the colour of the covers, both in terms of texture and hue, the staples seem to be casually arranged - showing they have been stapled by hand and not with a stapling machine, which is just right if you consider the print runs, and the interior of volume  2 of the boxless edition does show a noticeable offset - say half a centimetre right and up respect to the other.

Checking them side by side shows the cover has the same offset too - so the answer is that there has been a problem when the printer cut the covers to the appropriate size from the larger stock on which they were printed.

Just my .02


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:20 am 
 

morgansurname wrote:Summary:

1st set: Darker richer brown with more wrinkles, staples closer to the bottom, print lower, staples shiny

2nd set: Lighter smoother cover, staples closer to the top, print higher, staples a little rusty.

Any ideas?

It seems the later printings had considerable variation.  I have two sets of 5th printings (hobbits, no printing indicated, no price on books) with similar issues.  One has a buff inside cover, the other white.  Staple/print positioning seems to vary even within the sets.  I'd suggest these differences are minor and not worthy of a "5th +" or "6th minus" designation unless there's actually a change in the printed text.  Maybe we should just collate the different variations and post them?

Question:  Does your 2nd set have a grid-like pattern on the covers?

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 9:41 am 
 

deimos3428 wrote:It seems the later printings had considerable variation. I have two sets of 5th printings (hobbits, no printing indicated, no price on books) with similar issues. One has a buff inside cover, the other white. Staple/print positioning seems to vary even within the sets.

There's definitely that interesting variation in the 1st print, too... :?

deimos3428 wrote:I'd suggest these differences are minor and not worthy of a "5th +" or "6th minus" designation unless there's actually a change in the printed text.

Book collectors might suggest that even if they're (mostly/all?) variations in the covers rather than the contents, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be a variation in prices if there's a true difference in rarity or key points in the printing order.
Listing such variations and attempting to get a feel for relative scarcity certainly wouldn't hurt, IMHO.

(Ditto for the boxes, phps).

deimos3428 wrote:Maybe we should just collate the different variations and post them?

*nods*
Have been planning to do so, but is difficult to "standardise" baseline scans; thus needed to pick up copies myself.
I do have those for all the prints on the HDD, now, except for that elusive 4th print. (Have asked a few times, but no-one has admitted to owning that set... gotta presume my aversion to the 5th print means I've missed some 4ths in passing, rather than it doesn't exist ;)).

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:01 pm 
 

(Still aside from that OCE question, above, but might as well post the following comparison scan here, for now: may also prompt a bit more interest in variations amongst the later prints...).

harami2000 wrote:There's definitely that interesting variation in the 1st print, too... :?


The relative positions of the color blocks appear to be fairly consistent within the various printings when I rifled through a fair number of 4th- and 5th prints...
Don't have multiples of the earlier prints to check those, though. :(

Do these scans tally with other copies owned by Acaeum members?

The increased wear on the GK logo appears to be consistent, too, although the variations in ink absorbency of the cardstock perhaps makes that a more difficult factor to use.

Image

Aside from those, there is at least one weird print flaw which continues to the 3rd print, but only for one book! Not 100% sure what that says about how the set-ups were done for the printing and an email to Tim J. might not help, either. ;)
There are also size variations in the books and interesting slants from the cut of the guillotine, but I don't know how automatic that process was. Would probably require more direct comparison of multiple copies, I think, as measurements vary depending on how you take them!


Any input appreciated on these points... (And a few more to follow, too).
David.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 09, 2005 5:37 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:Aside from those, there is at least one weird print flaw which continues to the 3rd print, but only for one book! Not 100% sure what that says about how the set-ups were done for the printing and an email to Tim J. might not help, either. ;)
There are also size variations in the books and interesting slants from the cut of the guillotine, but I don't know how automatic that process was. Would probably require more direct comparison of multiple copies, I think, as measurements vary depending on how you take them![/i]

Any input appreciated on these points... (And a few more to follow, too).
David.


This kind of shifting is generated by different mounting of the printing plates (two colors, one brown, one blue).
IMHO, it could have happened because someone with typographic experience have checked the alignments of the text in the final output, and corrected the position in the third print (alignment with logo and too much white space left between heading and description).

Just my .02


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:52 pm 
 

(temporary post; following from Palace of the Vampire Queen print sequence • Page 7 • Collecting General •  The Acaeum .
Had better do some scans... plus more to follow the previous post on this thread. Hrmm...)

====

afoolandhis$ wrote:
harami2000 wrote:Wish I could tie that in with Sotteraneo's "missing $10.00"/"missing starburst" set, but the colors ain't right. :(


Yeah, this one is intriguing, to say the least. You mean the colors of the covers, right?

Was going by the red/green/blue primarily, compared with the "new 6th" print I'm trying to tie that in to, since there are two sets in that auction to use for reference... They both seem the same, though, and the "new 6th" is a lot duller, especially on the blue and green.
The cardstock is also a bit different, but more difficult to use for comparison.
*
In the "6th" some of the Tolkien refs. have been taken out, but not all, and they forgot to price the stocklist (some of the items are priced "in text") and temporarily lost(!) the word "Encumberance" at the top of page 15 in M&M.
The "7th" (which appears to be the usual OCE(??)) has "all" the Tolkien refs. removed and a fully priced stocklist plus Dragon costs and an extra item at the end. (* "All" = not sure where that lone hobbit on "page 6" went to...??).

[ed. correction] "6th" and "7th" are both OCE. I don't have the box, but "Collector's Edition" is mentioned in both stock lists. Duh...

Stapling plays funny tricks, too: almost makes it look like the "6th" was put together on a different machine, compared with the 5th and "7th".

As noted, there could be several other prints along the line, too...
(Apologies for not making that 6A and 6B, since it's apparently a full printing, not just a variant).

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 5:00 pm 
 

harami wrote:Wish I could tie that in with Sotteraneo's "missing $10.00"/"missing starburst" set, but the colors ain't right. :(

Heck, could be 10th/11th printing, by the time we've all thrown our OD&D copies into the listing...
I'm not counting the other variants/different cover printings for now; and Deimos's "5th" looks more like a full printing than a variant, even though it could've been a test print (*waves hiya*)

Aha, so you're still looking into it.  Hope I'm not keeping you too busy, I promise not to find any new printings until after you've finished the chronology.  :twisted:  Now that you mention it, I will go through carefully and check for non-tolkien references on mine.

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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 5:03 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Aha, so you're still looking into it. Hope I'm not keeping you too busy, I promise not to find any new printings until after you've finished the chronology. :twisted: Now that you mention it, I will go through carefully and check for non-tolkien references on mine.

Hrrr... sorry!

Am going to have to compile that list of present/absent printing flaws you confirmed for a start, before I lose that off my PM history... :(
At the least (from the "internals") those /appeared/ to put yours right at the start of the 5th, but that different cover cardstock is also fun and games. In theory you should have ALL the Tolkien refs.
(Would really like to find a major textual difference, too, but don't think we managed that yet, no?).

Wonder whether they ever corrected those "weresolves"! :P

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 9:34 pm 
 

morgansurname wrote:Summary:

1st set: Darker richer brown with more wrinkles, staples closer to the bottom, print lower, staples shiny

2nd set: Lighter smoother cover, staples closer to the top, print higher, staples a little rusty.

Any ideas?

Yup; good spot, as mentioned before. Fingers crossed for the contents...

Please try the stock list prices and last item listed in M&M, the word "ENCUMBERANCE" at the top of page 15, any text against Flyer/die roll 12 at the bottom of page 18 of U&WA, Dragon/die roll 10 on page 19, and the wording alongside the ENT "depicted" on page 25 of the same.

Are the two sets the same?
And are the rusty staples smaller than the shiny ones?

=
p.s. Anyone got a potion of Fire Resistance (M&T page 32) which doesn't protect against Balrog immolation? :P

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:19 pm 
 

You my not think it's a big deal, but any of those 3 books-in-a-box is a connection back to those heady days of yore. When I started collecting just a couple of years ago, I decided not spend a lot on something like a first print so I could have more to spend on items to flesh out my collection, like that beautiful set of the first 16 Judges Guild journals with all sub items and some non-sub items too. I knew that was also an item well-connected with those early days and since I also received a MINT Character Archaic with that I certainly don't regret taking that route. The same with Arduin Grimiore. I wanted to have a well-rounded collection that could illustrate a lot of the ambiance of the whole D&D system.
    When 3.5 came out I even snapped up a large auction of brand new 3rd edition stuff(please stop laughing and snorting everyone) to show the evolution of the game. And of course I have 1st and 2nd edition stuff as well. I even have a Hebrew edition DM guide. Nobody else even bid on it. Of course I'm not Jewish and can't read a word of it, but it shows the global reach of this game.
     So don't apologize for only having an OCE, as the saying goes, "It's all good!"
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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:49 pm 
 

aside: am glad I cached those links on the "What's up with OCE prices lately?" thread.

*does a quick check of the images*

at a guess...
"6th"?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5172203222
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5167283364

"7th"?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5957583843
(Will go for that one, because of the pink U&WA, too)

  


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Post Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 9:30 am 
 

Nice work, David, very interesting.

For what it's worth, page 15 of Men & Magic in this set doesn't have a page number...

Image Image Image

  


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Post Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 9:15 pm 
 

I have just found something new and very interesting. I just happened to be reading through 1 of my OCE sets tonight and I have found that there is still at least 1 remaining reference to Hobbits. I checked it against my other OCE set and it appears in both. The reference is located in the Men & Magic booklet in first sentence of the 2nd paragraph down from the top on page 6. It states:
Fighting Men includes the characters of elves and dwarves and even hobbits.


Does anyone else here have one that this reference has been changed to halflings? :? Because if it is changed, that may also offer further proof that there was another printing after 6th as well.  If anyone is interested, I can post pics as well for reference.

I am planning on reading through the rest of the set tonight and I will report any further finds, but I find interesting that this has never been caught before. 8)


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Post Posted: Sun May 08, 2005 11:31 pm 
 

From the description of the Sixth print:

References to Hobbits and Ents have been changed to Halflings and Treants (see page 9 of Men & Magic), due to copyright conflicts with the Tolkien estate (with the exception of a single leftover reference on pg 6 to Hobbits!)

Nice try, though.  :)

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Post Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 4:18 am 
 

FoulFoot wrote:From the description of the Sixth print:
References to Hobbits and Ents have been changed to Halflings and Treants (see page 9 of Men & Magic), due to copyright conflicts with the Tolkien estate (with the exception of a single leftover reference on pg 6 to Hobbits!)

Nice try, though. :)
Foul

*g*. Yeah, nice try! :P *g*. sry!
The refugee Balrog hiding behind the potion of Fire Resistance would've been a better "spot", phps.

Since someone's finally making a move, I'll drop this in here for now.
(Will correct and add in Deimos's copy (5A) when poss.)

=


"Non priced" (i.e. no "$3.50" on cover) booklets.
- Only checked two copies of "5th" for consistency
- "5", "6", "7" are numbers for my convenience only since there may be further "hidden" printings, plus other cover variants).
- Notes in red are more significant points. Orange, somewhat significant.
- Minor printing flaws observed may not be significant in the end analysis, but could be of use for chronological purposes esp. if they occurred between prints. (n.b. not every single one listed here).

M&M

6.11 "hobbits" -- uncorrected -- all
8 Hobbits & Balrog (5) Halflings & Dragon (6,7)
9 Hobbits, Ents, Balrogs (5) Halflings, Treants, <blank> (6,7)
9.3 Netrality -- uncorrected - all
13.7 "so long as they" -- most of "as" and bottom-left of "a" missing -- uncorrected -- all
15.1 "ENCUMBERANCE-" - present (5,7), missing (6)
23.11 "(i.e, a Balrog)," (5) -- removed (6,7)
28.last "e" in "possess" broken (6 only)
30.18 "u" in "required" broken -- all
30.18 "st" in against broken (5) -- repaired (6,7)
34.20 "c" in "magic" broken (5) -- repaired (6,7)
36 "PRODUCTS LIST" & totally different format, ending with "Complete Catalog" and "TSR HOBBIES" + address (5)
- Relabeled as "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR" + price column, Rates for Dragon & "Complete Catalog" on the last line (7)
- "Other Fantasy Releases by TSR", no price column, no Rates for Dragon & no "Complete Catalog", but still with "booklet only" prices in the description texts (6)
(n.b. both (6) and (7) have Dragon "Published 8 times yearly" -- uncorrected?)

M&T
1 image labeled "Nazgul" (5) -- title removed (6,7)
3 "% In Liar" -- uncorrected - all
3 "Balrogs" (5) -- whole line removed (6,7)
4 "Ents" (5) Treants" (6,7)
4.near end "Large Insects.. 2-16" "16" OK (5) "16" broken at top (6,7)
5-8 pages guillotined short at base (5,7) level at base (6) -- is this consistent?
7.ORCS para "Tolkein" ref (5) -- removed and para reformatted (6,7)
7."Balrog… 25%/100 Orcs…" present (5) -- whole line removed (6,7)
8 "Lord Sunsany" -- uncorrected -- all
9 "Barrow Wights (per Tolkein)" (5) -- "Wights" and para reformatted; end of last line "energy by a Wight becomes a Wight" left duplicated in previous font (6,7) - plus "Tolkein" - uncorrected all - of course
9 "The Nazgul of Tolkein…" sentence (5) -- removed and para reformatted (6,7)
13 image labeled "Balrog" (5) -- title removed (6,7)
14 "BALROGS" paragraph/description (5) -- removed and replaced by Tom Wham artwork (6,7)
15.22 broken "h" in "such" (7 only)
16.ENTS refs to Ents (5) -- replaced by Treants and para reformatted (6,7)
17.3 "e" in "they" blotched (5) -- repaired (6,7)
17.ROCS para "Eagles of Tolkein…" ref (5) -- removed and para reformatted (6,7)
20 "Tyrannasaurus Rex" -- uncorrected - all
22 Treasure Type F -- missing hook in "r" of "any other" -- uncorrected -- all
23.2 last "s" in "Silver Pieces" more faded/damaged at end (in 6)
23 Sword 61-65 - +3 vs…. "Ents" (5) -- "Treants" and "65" damaged (6,7)
23 Sword 81-82 -- "8" of "81" damaged (6 only)
27.sword alignment - ref to Ents (5) -- changed to Treants and para reformatted (6,7)
30.sword purposes --bottom left of first "C" in "slaying (Chaotic)" broken (6 only)
31.POTIONS -- "self-explanarorv" -- uncorrected -- all
32.potion of Animal Control -- damage to top of "O" in "One turn" (6,7 only)
32.potion of Fire Resistance -- "Balrog immolation" -- uncorrected -- all :)
32.(line above previous Balrog ref.) -- "Fire" (5) in "Dragon Fire" -- word replaced/in slightly different font (6,7) (slight difference between 6 & 7, too?))
32.potion of Treasure Finding -- break(?) in "c" of "considerable" (7 only)
35.6 bottom first "f" in "Staff" broken -- all
35.Staff of Wizardry -- mark at top/above "y" in "how many and which kind" -- uncorrected -- all
36.16 -- break at left side of "v" in "Evil High Priests" (5 only)
37.Helm of Chaos -- "sucha" (one word) -- uncorrected -- all
37 -- two lines down from previous -- "of" in "of course the person" appears replaced? (all)
37.Drums of Panic -- ink spotting in middle of lines around "…these… morale…" (5 only)

U&WA
4 possible weakness in dark area at bottom left of dungeon map (6 only)
5.6 "2" of "2 000" damaged (all)
5.17 word "gentle" at end of line appears replaced, with vertical line before it (all)
5.2nd last line. "r" in "door" with blob at top (all)
8.10 base of "gg" in "suggested" trimmed (all)
9.7 damage/splotch above "d" in "required" (6,7 only)
9.18 Hobbits (5) Halflings (6,7)
9.27 "their" in "their normal shape," appears replaced (all)
10.Monster Level 3/10 -- "Giant Weasles" -- uncorrected all
11.Monster Level 6/9 -- Balrogs (5) Spectres (6,7)
11 top of "C" in "Cyborgs" trimmed (6,7 only)
13.last "REF" para. "min" in "…seemingly empty trunk…" apparently replaced/damaged -- uncorrected all
14 image labeled "Nazgul" (5) -- title removed (6,7)
14.next line "THE" in "THE WILDERNESS" damaged (6,7 only)
15.1 "Grayhawk" -- uncorrected -- all
15.5 top of "ng" in "dungeon" trimmed off (6,7)
15.table "Balrogs" and "Ents" (5) "Chmrs." and "Treants" (6,7)
15.Magic-Users -- top-left of "M" trimmed off (6,7)
16. MOVEMENT table -- "Balrog" line (5) removed (6,7)
16.line before table -- middle of first "l" in "normal flying" possibly broken (6 only)
17.6 top left of "m" in "movement" broken (5 only)
17.14 middle of second "s" in "surprised" poss. broken (7 only)
17. below efreet pic. Diagonal "cut" line up from first "V" in "OUTDOOR SURVIVAL" (7 only)
17. second last line. first "e" in "waterbourne" broken (7 only)
18.4 first "M" in "MONSTERS" broken at top left (6 only)
18. last "12" line "Balrogs" and "Ents" (5,6) blank and "Treants" (7)
19.2 "Weresolves" -- uncorrected -- all
19.Dragon Types/10. "Balrogs" (5,6) blank (7)
25.13 top of first "P" in "Paper" trimmed (6,7) and large blotch at bottom left of "h" in "should" (6,7)
25 image labeled "Ent" (5) -- title removed (6,7)
31.6 "s" in "sheared" damaged -- all
31.8th last. Spot under"w" of "will" (6 only)
32.5,6. end of line "string…would" weak print (5 only)
33.2nd last. consistent ink splotches around "In Sail" (5,7 only)
36 consistent ink splotches around "FIGHT ON!" (5,7 only)


=


Can see how this could be read to give an order of printing 5,7,6 given various printing flaws and the staple similarities between 5 and 7. In this case, the price column in the stock list in 6 could've been removed when they, and the catalog, were no longer valid, rather than having been "missed" first time, as I thought initially... However, that scenario would also require some central pages of U&WA (with the Balrogs and Ents) to have been "stacked away" for compilation later.
*thinks again*

Any cross-comparisons of copies welcome & appreciated. <morgansurname> certainly (*points to top of thread*), please.
("More to add", no doubt... ;)).

  
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