ETC/GAME EMP/jonb7839,lisas_stuff_too! is now she_wolf626
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Post Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:53 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:
Badmike wrote:I really, really hope this latest incident will make members of this forum realize that when buying from ETC/GE/JB whether or not it's a "good deal" you are AIDING A CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE by dealing with this moron! The fact that despite all the evidence and the warnings, up until last week members of this forum were still attempting to send this guy money is mind boggling! He's a black eye on the hobby and for retailers he's our worst nightmare, as he erodes trust in the entire process of buying RPGs online.
 After this latest outbreak, I'm seriously contemplating blocking from my own auctions forum members who bid on the next incarnation of ETC/GE/JB auctions, simply because support of a thief, liar and conman is not the sort of behavior I think should be encouraged here or anywhere else. and I'd rather not do business with such people myself. Now, being as don't deal with forum members very freqently (given as how the typical forum member is not looking for a G1-3 against the giants) I realize the "ban" would be mostly symbolic. But I'd be willing to do such actions to throw further light on the problem of supporting criminal activity such as theft, misrepresentation of identity and property, and other sundry activities Jon Basset was engaged in.

Many of us are good friends on the forums, as we share a common interest. I greatly value other Acaeum members' opinions in regards to all aspects of collecting, including the reputations of various eBay users.

However, my business decisions will ultimately remain my own. I'm not interested in entering into some sort of eBay trading union.

I recently bid on one of jonb's auctions, after calculating the risk involved from the information made available. I admit I calculated poorly, but ultimately it was my decision to make, not the Acaeum's. I won't be buying from him again, based on my own experience dealing with him. In short, eBay is not a democracy.

I've purchased from you before, Badmike, and would do so again as you're a great seller. If you want to block anyone from your auctions for any reason that's your choice, and I respect your conviction in the matter if not your approach.


    I don't disagree with your approach. But I'm not just a seller on Ebay, as of a year ago it's my primary source of income.  If one was to plug whatever their primary profession is into this episode, I believe the actions of most of the people here would be furious anger at not only someone abusing the profession, but the people doing business with someone who has been proven time and again a thief, conman and liar.    Imagine an architect doing a half ass job of drawing plans, a nurse keeping half assed care of a patient, a delivery man only 95% of the time getting the correct address, hell, a subway sandwhich maker charging you full price and then leaving out the meat, onions and dressing when handing you the sandwhich.  Then imagine you own an architect firm, a nursing home, a delivery service, or a sandwich shop in the same town and despite giving your customer exceptional service, seeing business going the crook's way time and again.  Then to top it off you have to listen to the buyer complain about how ALL architects, nurses, delivery men and sandwich makers are crooks based on their experience with the one bad vendor.  In the real world, trade unions and buyer protection organizations are set up to prevent these various ills. That's why we have the Better Business Bureau or Consumer Reports, so that those that   threaten the livelihoods of others in the same business have a very bright spotlight shined upon them.
      The problem here is that EBay is not organized like a "legitimate" business. The primary protections are the feedback system, which allows you a glimpse but as we have all seen is seriously flawed; or Ebay itself, which time and again stresses they provide only a "venue" for sales and have no direct concern in the transaction as long as they are paid for providing the venue.  To argue against the system Ebay has provided and hoping they take further actions against those abusing the system are futile; companies like Ebay set up multiple "firewalls" and such so that they are insulated against the bad apples that abuse their venue.   I can't blame them for that, they like any company exist to make money and enrich stockholders, they are not some Utopic concern whose purpose in the world is to make everyone on both ends of the transaction happy 100% of the time.  Hoping that EBay will feel embarrasment or outrage or compassion or any other human emotion is the same as hoping WallMart, McDonalds or Bank of America will do the same.  
     I've seen people go into towering rages when overcharged $1 on their phone bills, yet smile and nod and shrug their shoulders when some scumbag on Ebay makes off with their $50. This would seem puzzling, except what we have here is a problem with perception.  The people running the phone companies are running a "business", and they should know better(we think to ourselves)...when people look at Ebay, for the most part they don't see the individual sellers as "small businesses", they still have the widely held assumption that it's like a "garage sale" and if they occasionally buy something for $50 that turns out to be a dud, well, it's buyer beware, too bad, so what if I don't get a refund. These are the same people standing in front of me in the Target returns lane that are sreaming for a manager and that they will get everyone there fired for not giving them their $5 back for the defective potato peeler they only used 20 or so times before it broke...
    If people on the Acaeum, who I consider to be the cream of the crop in RPG collecting circles and a pretty savvy bunch, choose to throw away money dealing with crooks, I realize it probably shouldn't concern me.  Frankly, I'm more upset if Joe Public's first buy of an RPG on Ebay is from JonB and he gets ripped off, because unlike an Aceaum member he's probably more likely to decide that buying more items on EBay is just a rip off and not come back around anymore looking for G1-3 Againt the Giants or whatever.  However, the ACTIONS OF PAST CUSTOMERS have negatively impacted on Joe Public, because if certain individuals had not dealt with Jonb to begin with, he would have never been able in the long run to get to the point of ripping off Joe Public. When those past customers are Aceaum members who were warned time and time again yet like a starving dog with a steak waved in front of their face couldn't pass up a Beastmaker Mountain or whatever, I have to wonder a bit if this a person I really want to do business with....would they stab me in the back for a 20% shipping discount from the New Improved Eastern Treasure Chest when it opens up in six months time?
    I would only hope an action such as I described above would if nothing else lead to discussion and hopefully open up a few minds to the fact that Ebay for many is NOT an unregulated free for all flea market but a legitimate business and job, and that actions taken on that forum have consequences.  Let's face it, the "I'm not hurting anyone but myself" excuse isn't accepted in a host of activities that are otherwise considered illegal, including using drugs and attempting suicide, those breaking the rules are prosecuted none the less.  If everyone here bought from Jonb saying "Well, it's only hurting me", they would be wrong, because not everyone doing business with Jon Basset has the sleuthing abilities of a BC at their disposal to discover what  a crook he really is (and thus is not able to make a fully informed decision), and the money swelling the coffers that is provided by us only encourages him to prolong his criminal enterprise.
  As I hope everyone slogging through this assumes, I mean no disrespect or accusation of any Acaeum members who have weighed all the consequences yet have still dealt with Jonb.  I would only ask those thinking of doing so when he is unmasked yet again to please ponder the effects of such actions on myself and other legitimate merchants, and to ask yourself if you would conciously enrich someone in your own profession, be it plumber, accountant or bank teller, who you positively knew was stealing and lying to others; and what you would think about OTHERS who knew the truth yet also continued to deal with these individuals. If a threat of being a blocked bidder in a legitimate merchant's auctions or stores caused a minute of reflection, then that's the point of the entire threat even if it's never followed through with by myself and others....ultimately, informed and rational discussion (ok, maybe a little of the emotions of hatred and contempt might sneak in when I think of ETC/GE/JB) is the point of the thread, right?

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:40 pm 
 

Wow, this is a tough topic. I must admit I was shaking my head, seeing informed Acaeum members bidding on jonb/TGE/ETC auctions. Being informed of jonb's business practices and yet bidding on his stuff doesn't seem right to me. My first thought was, here is someone trying to strike a bargain from an outlawed thief. My second thought was, hopefully they learn their lesson.

Kudos to BadMike for having the balls to discuss this openly here, especially as a professional seller, who won't profit from this decision.

I think it is good to have this discussion here, but I'm not sure whether it is helpful to ban informed collectors who bid on the thief's stuff. After all, we shouldn't fight each other, while the thief is laughing at us.


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:47 pm 
 

Ralf Toth wrote:Wow, this is a tough topic. I must admit I was shaking my head, seeing informed Acaeum members bidding on jonb/TGE/ETC auctions. Being informed of jonb's business practices and yet bidding on his stuff doesn't seem right to me. My first thought was, here is someone trying to strike a bargain from an outlawed thief. My second thought was, hopefully they learn their lesson.

Kudos to BadMike for having the balls to discuss this openly here, especially as a professional seller, who won't profit from this decision.

I think it is good to have this discussion here, but I'm not sure whether it is helpful to ban informed collectors who bid on the thief's stuff. After all, we shouldn't fight each other, while the thief is laughing at us.


Well, if nothing else it makes for interesting conversation.   I mostly just threw that out there to gauge everyone's reaction.  I don't know if I'd ever actually follow through on anything, but it is frustrating to watch what you know are informed, intelligent people do something dumb, and the frustration does boil over on occasion.  About like I felt last year when two of my closest friends fell for pyramid schemes (one was a multi-level marketing scam, the other a straight-forward pyramid money tree) while I was telling them the entire time they were being had, yet they were intelligent, grown up human beings so sometimes you just have to sit by and watch people get burned.  It was embarrasing when they were taken and yet they knew better and the money they lost could have gone to good purposes.  I suppose that's how I feel for anyone bidding on ETC/GE/JB's stuff...

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Post Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:43 pm 
 

I understand Mikey's point of view, but I agree, if someone wants to take the chance, and they get burned, too freking bad. I won a jonb auction, but I'd have gladly driven down there if it didnt arrive.


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 10:34 pm 
 

He's certainly gotten a nice collection of negatives in the last few days...  Anyone notice that he described The Sunless Citadel as VERY RARE!?


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 11:51 pm 
 

tec-9-7 wrote:He's certainly gotten a nice collection of negatives in the last few days... Anyone notice that he described The Sunless Citadel as VERY RARE!?


This isn't good news when you find a string like this on a guy you just bought something from, all negs:


  Sent three emails,no response,been a month,paid June5th. No product.No exscuses.
 Buyer   numberonespud ( 78)   Jul-03-05 15:51  5202932459  


  won the 29th, paid the 29th, no product 32 days later never again
 Buyer   bacaruda ( 54)   Jul-03-05 13:11  5200539576  


  30 days and not recieved anything.got promise it was coming but +2 weeks nothing
 Buyer   501jonathanc ( 10)   Jul-02-05 17:42  5203283304  


  no product no communication no deal terrible ebayer never buy anything from him
 Buyer   grandpa_gohan ( 15)   Jul-02-05 04:14  5205077659  


  Never recieved item :(
 Buyer   elricrpg ( 62)   Jul-01-05 17:26  5202309747  


  emailed and got no reponse
 Buyer   zerohero92 ( 93)   Jul-01-05 14:23  5200499679  


  waited over a month and received nothing
 Buyer   zerohero92 ( 93)   Jul-01-05 14:22  5201191381  


  Paid, but never recieved item. No response to emails I've sent since winning.
 Buyer   varek-kai ( 16)   Jun-29-05 10:06  5202649834


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:04 am 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:Six of last seven (and eight of last 13) comments are negative.


Make that 10 of the last 11 being negatives ...

It's all over except for the formality of his account eventually being changed to "not a registered user."

+++++

Aside: Mike, good posts on the subect. I'm not sure I totally agree with everything (I'm a big "free will" guy), but I read every word and you've raised some interesting points that I need to think about more seriously than I have in the past.

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 1:33 am 
 

Interesting that the "active" time for this clown keeps get shorter. Here's some relevant numbers:

ETC: Active 27 months**; 1,895 feedback (95.7 ratio)

TGE: Active for seven months; 707 feedback (88.9 ratio)

JonB: Final numbers aren't in yet, but he's only in his fourth month and his feedback appears to have topped out in the high 200s.

+++++

** interesting to note that ETC had a different user name from 10/00 to 07/02 ...

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 3:58 am 
 

I wasn't really "around" when ETC was active, but TGE was a real thorn in my side when it came to outbidding me on large lots.  This time, I hardly even noticed it.  Nor do I really recall much of an outcry to the current incarnation's sales going for very high prices.

Warned buyers has led to poor sales . . . which leads to less purchasing power on large lots  . . . which leads to a quicker need to "get out" and make the big haul through more nefarious ways . . .


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 4:44 am 
 

Thanks to the Acaeum, I have never bought anything from this Jonb thief, nor I have even THOUGHT of doing it, even at the start of his course.

I think that this kind of people should be eradicated from the ground like a bad seed - and maybe our talks and advice here have helped to do this sooner than later.

My opinion is to display in the auctions we run something about the Acaeum, so that people could check here, and maybe help themselves defend against such scammers.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 7:00 am 
 

rosenkav wrote:Thanks to the Acaeum, I have never bought anything from this Jonb thief, nor I have even THOUGHT of doing it, even at the start of his course.

I think that this kind of people should be eradicated from the ground like a bad seed - and maybe our talks and advice here have helped to do this sooner than later.

My opinion is to display in the auctions we run something about the Acaeum, so that people could check here, and maybe help themselves defend against such scammers.


Maybe a 'sticky' eBay fraud item would attract the casual passer by?


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:30 am 
 

Personally, I agree with a lot of Mike said in his posts and it is actually the hidden message that I have been trying to relay for awhile now, but I did not want it to be viewed as an attack on the members of the board that had bought from him.

In the long run I don't think banning everyone from your auctions who bought(or at least attempted to buy from him) jonb's auctions would be the solution, but realistically it does make a very clear point. Lets face it, we are all adults here and we all most certainly make our own decisions in life, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of times that even though when you buy from a guy like this you ARE hurting more people than just yourself. Buying from a guy like jonb is not only taking money out of good and legitimate sellers hands, but you are helping to both perpetuate a cycle and continue a scam.

Jonb's scam is basically a pyramid scam. His scam is not to steal everone's money, he only steals some people's money. To make everyone understand what I mean, look at it this way. If jonb buys a 10 item lot from a seller and lists them all on Ebay, all of which sell, and to make the it simple, say for $10.00 each. He decides to ship 8 of the items that were paid for and not ship 2 of them. He then holds onto those items that he did not ship for another month or 2 and includes them with a different 13 item lot he purchased from a different seller in his next 15 auction listings. These items also sell for $10.00 each, and of that lot that sold and were paid for, he chooses to not ship 3 items. Then from that newer lot of items which he has sold but didnt ship the 3 from, he will then list those items again in another month or 2 down the road, with an even newer lot of 15 items he bought from 3rd seller. This process continues until the negs finally catch up to him and EBay boots him off, only to return another few months down the road under a new user ID and running the same scam.

Every time you buy an item from jonb you are giving him both more money to purchase more material (to sell or not sell) and you also providing him with more leverage(aka feedback in this circumstance) to end up stealing from someone else who doesn't know anything at all about the jonb7839/ETC/TGEs of the world. By continuing to buy from the jonbs of the world you ARE perpetuating the cycle of theft, so buying from jonb is NOT a victimless crime.

One last thing I wanted to mention that I don't think everyone realizes, and although some of you may not really care at all, the fact of the matter is that this forum is actually read by a lot of people who are not even neccessarily members of the forum (and I mean more than Cougar, Keep, and jonb) . These people who read the forums are interested in this hobby and a lot of times use this forum as a guide to help them with what to buy and what not to buy and also who to deal with and who not to deal with. Over the last couple of months I will bet that I have had at least 7 or 8 people who are not members of the forum, tell me that they read these forums and thanked me and the other members here for keeping them informed of who to buy from and who the hell to stay away from. A majority of the members of this forum represent what is the top of this hobby and a lot of people look to us to provide them guidence and help, so we should be holding ourselves to higher standard when dealing with the jonbs of the world.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:46 am 
 

I have actually resisted bidding on some of his stuff because of this forum, maybe it saved me some cash, maybe not.  I just can't bring myself to take a chance when he has ripped off so many.  On another note I did buy from him when he was the game emp. and got my item after six weeks.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:36 am 
 

Part of the problem is that he does have some items that are semi-rare, and the vast majority of collectors do not have the patience it takes to collect smartly. I can't say it enough times; EVERYTHING shows up eventually.
I have to admit, I bought the GM3 from jonb in the hopes that he wouldn't ship it. I didn't need it. But I was either one of the 8 out of 10, or he read the forum, because it arrived fairly quickly and in excellent shape. I did not leave feedback, however.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:40 am 
 

Well it is official, jonb7839 is now: No longer a registered user

eBay Feedback Profile for jonb7839


The question is how long before he shows up again? My guess will probably be around November, so keep an eye out.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:10 am 
 

I agree to an extent with what's been said regarding those who've chosen to bid on Jon's stuff.  

I personally have made an effort to "go the extra mile" with quick shipping, personal contact, and accurate descriptions on my items.  When someone like Jon comes along and screws with buyers, that buyer is going to be ALOT more hesitant to buy from ANYONE on ebay next time. Particularly a couple of weeks ago, Jon looked to have good feedback unless you are looked deep and actually read the weak positives.  So maybe JOEDRAGONGUY who got ripped off by jon (Who looked like a good seller) will next time just spend his money locally on what items he can find, instead of buying what he really wants off ebay just out of fear of another supposedly good seller ripping him off.

I also admit to perpetuating the cycle a bit, by having sold him a couple of lots of books, but I did finally see the light and had him blocked from bidding more reciently.

Another thing that saddens me in regards to him are the people that were ripped off that probably don't even realize it, those who bought the common items that he hyped as rare and got the big bids for.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:35 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:.....so buying from jonb is NOT a victimless crime.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, as they say. I proffited from the episode (I've PM'd you, Brian, to explain) :wink:


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:04 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Well it is official, jonb7839 is now: No longer a registered user

eBay Feedback Profile for jonb7839


The question is how long before he shows up again? My guess will probably be around November, so keep an eye out.

I'd like to think that eBay finally acted on that email.  But maybe just coincidental.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:36 pm 
 

eyeamgawd left a positive feedback for gm3.

Deadlord36 wrote:Part of the problem is that he does have some items that are semi-rare, and the vast majority of collectors do not have the patience it takes to collect smartly. I can't say it enough times; EVERYTHING shows up eventually.
I have to admit, I bought the GM3 from jonb in the hopes that he wouldn't ship it. I didn't need it. But I was either one of the 8 out of 10, or he read the forum, because it arrived fairly quickly and in excellent shape. I did not leave feedback, however.


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:09 pm 
 

Xaxaxe wrote:
Aside: Mike, good posts on the subect. I'm not sure I totally agree with everything (I'm a big "free will" guy), but I read every word and you've raised some interesting points that I need to think about more seriously than I have in the past.


Thanks, to provoke discussion was the main thrust of the post, glad to read everyone's take, whether we can agree or not we can always discuss issues intelligently, I hope...

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