Palace of the Vampire Queen print sequence
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Post Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 2:03 pm 
 

Brad…has been quite helpful so far, and is willing to hammer this out from his memory. So let's get some facts together before I contact him again on the subject.

I. We have several different versions of the two-tone (black and halftone gray-graph) PotVQ's

1. A Black-Folder version with between 17 pages (AcaeumQuoted) some double-sided, and 24 single-sided, (Stephen's, Jeff's and our copy) total offset printed pages. Frank? David?
2. A Bagged version with 17 to 24 pages as above… (Paul's, Scott's and Alan's) total offset printed pages.
 a. Variants of this would be a difference in the intro and copyright either being white of yellow.

II. A Yellow-Covered bagged version that could be qualifying as a variant printing, but before we entertain this again to Brad…Stephen could you please look at your Yellow-Covered copy again? Is the reason the graph is not present in the photo something to do with it being such a light gray that being scanned in through the plastic bag…it's just not coming through?

The only reason I ask this is I compared our Level 5 map to Stephen's photo. There exact right down to the hatch-work and even where the graph touches the architectural lines. The only difference is that our graph-lines continue into the rooms and in Stephen's photo they stop. The bright light of the scanner could be reflecting off the plastic and blanking out the light gray graph in the rooms. Just guessing… and it's puzzling because if the graph were not there then a printer of this version would have had to make a separate new plate with no graph in the rooms. But then why leave it under the hatch-work?

III. Ian's, Bagged Xerox Version. Many questions here…that who made them, Wee Warriors, TSR, traded this way between old alum, or even worse bootlegged?

1. Well one thing we can sort of rule out is Brad doesn't remember ever doing anything that wasn't offset printed.
2. I also finally dug out the old 1976 TSR Handbook and compared the copier signature to the PotVQ replacement map sent to Tadashi we have.

The Handbook is eight, 8 1/2 X 11 sheets of paper single sided.

Image

I placed the copied Palace page next to one of the loose sheets of the handbook to show comparison.

Image

Image

Image

If I had to bet a buck…I'd say these were run off on the same machine. Again this is just that replacement map, but it does prove TSR would put something to the copier. Ian could you check the bottoms or tops of any of your copied pages to see if there's a similar Xerox signature, your posted photo doesn't have it.

Mike


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Post Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 3:35 pm 
 

I've taken the liberty of posting some correspondence from another contributor; I'm sure he won't mind.

Here he is talking about his black-foldered version. It has 23 total pages; he seems to be missing an Intro page:

There is the copyright page (white) that used to be poorly glued in on the right side. There is no yellow Intro page. The double-sided page with the Contents and expanded Background is, in my version, two single-sided pages. The maps definitely have a gray grid on them. The pages have, if I'm looking at the right thing, streak marks near the right edge, ending with a small ink spot at the bottom of the pages.

My copy -- a non-foldered First print -- does NOT have any streaks on any of the pages, maps or otherwise. My copy has single-sided maps, double-sided text, for 17 pages. Since my copy *should* be the same as a black foldered version (just without the folder), I'm wondering if all single-sided pages means it was photocopied. The contributor is pretty sure his black-foldered version was offset printed, but to be sure might require a microscope.

Here he talks about his yellow-covered-with-artwork version:

There is the yellow cover page, single-sided, with the title. There are 12 pages, double-sided. The map pages appear to be photocopies. None of the pages have the streak ending in a small ink spot. There is gray in the map grids, but it's not crisp like the black folder version. One curious thing about this version is the materials that came with it. On the back of what might be described as office scrap paper (3 pages from a campaign for a city council seat in Knoxville, TN, dated October 1977), there are hand-written notes for five characters (magic-user, fighter, cleric, fighter, and thief). It makes me wonder if someone didn't print-up or copy some of these for a small tournament somewhere. On the copyright page there is an address label for one Lou Zocchi in Biloxi, MS, that has been placed over the TSR Hobbies Inc. Maybe he ran a POTVQ tourney.

It might very well be that the gray grid with the streak POTVQs were the only ones sanctioned by Wee Warriors/TSR (and the booklet, of course). It's very possible that the other versions are bootlegs. The only other explanation for a short version lacking the gray grid with streak is a tournament someone hastily put together. The weird thing is that the streaks are totally missing from the yellow. If someone had photocopied POTVQ using a black folder version, they couldn't do it without copying the streaks. That's what puzzles me. The yellow did come in a large ziploc bag.

My thinking here is that indeed, this print was run off at the lower-quality offset press using paper plates.  That might account for the lack of streaks and the differing tone of the gray grid.

Further thoughts?

  


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Post Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 4:39 pm 
 

Well to start...

I quoted Brad about a question in the Banner's of Chaos thread:

It ties in with "The Endless Dungeon" and "The Village", which I'd forgotten about till I saw them listed at your forums. These, like a boardgame I did all on my own, were all from the period when Zocchi would take a minimum order on anything Wee Warriors did. Some fairly crackbrained things resulted from that.


Maybe Zocchi made the Yellow-Covered version? The time frame is right. Brad said the above was in 77-78. But why not more of the address labels though? Someone would have seen this label/version. Stephen, maybe this label is in the way of you reading the copyright page. See what you can do.

I'm wondering if all single-sided pages means it was photocopied.


No, 24 single-sided pages here... all offset except the replacement sent to tadsahi as posted above. Background page offset printed noted from even Morno border art.

double-sided text


Hmmm? Bagged 17 pages, Double-sided text with offset maps…

Paul? Alan?

Stephen's, Jeff's and our BF's are all 24 pages, single-sided text, with offset maps.

Frank? David?

Just thinking... :roll: Could Ian's be a Yellow-Cover version missing the cover?


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Post Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 4:54 pm 
 

hi guys - i am just going out for the day with Amanda, so when i get back later on, i will take my PotVQ out AGAIN *sigh* and count the pages and go into some more detail of what i can find. i will also do a full scan of the map five page that IO did there, so we can see whats what with that one. if you want me to look for any other specific things, please let me know by the time i get back and i will do it all in one foul swoop, so that i dont need to take it out the bag again :)

see y'all later !

Al



  


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Post Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 5:18 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote: II. A Yellow-Covered bagged version that could be qualifying as a variant printing, but before we entertain this again to Brad…Stephen could you please look at your Yellow-Covered copy again? Is the reason the graph is not present in the photo something to do with it being such a light gray that being scanned in through the plastic bag…it's just not coming through?

The only reason I ask this is I compared our Level 5 map to Stephen's photo. There exact right down to the hatch-work and even where the graph touches the architectural lines. The only difference is that our graph-lines continue into the rooms and in Stephen's photo they stop. The bright light of the scanner could be reflecting off the plastic and blanking out the light gray graph in the rooms. Just guessing… and it's puzzling because if the graph were not there then a printer of this version would have had to make a separate new plate with no graph in the rooms. But then why leave it under the hatch-work?

Mike


Hi Mike,
I don't think it's a matter of there being faint grid lines that didn't show in the scan.  Here's a shot of the back of the Bella PoVQ baggie, showing the last map.  No grid lines are visible.  I can't make out ANY trace of grid lines in the rooms.  What do you think?  

Image

  


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Post Posted: Sun May 01, 2005 9:21 pm 
 

Thanks, Mike & y'all.

(17 pages offset, here. Frank's is 24 pages offset, IIRC).
Does Brad recall whether their machine had auto-duplexing(!). That was one of my "questions" on the old thread since there were competing reasons for single vs. double sided; folder capacity, difficulty of duplexing, ease of /use/ of the module, etc., which could /possibly/ help to indicate a print order or whether they're likely to be random as various of those "issues" were tested.

invincibleoverlord wrote:1. Well one thing we can sort of rule out is Brad doesn't remember ever doing anything that wasn't offset printed.
2. I also finally dug out the old 1976 TSR Handbook and compared the copier signature to the PotVQ replacement map sent to Tadashi we have.

That replacement map was a piece of good fortune, indeed, in a research context! :P
At the very least that's pinned down TSR distribution of the black folder and provided an extra signature check should any other (early) copies turn up which are like that, throughout.
If Brad's process of deduction is correct(*), TSR got a new zerox machine, or else used another one, locally, for a larger "print run".
(* = would seem fair enough were it not for the added complexity of that Zocchi distributed copy with stated "copied" maps which were presumably /not/ TSR's in the context of Brad's distribution comment).
Either way, would appear to confirm the later date for the "3rd" as listed.

Also noted his comment which tallied with my guess that for local distribution Wee Warriors didn't use the black folder; at least for some copies :)
If so, this would explain why the very first prints can exist with/without the folder- not necessarily "Ziploc-bag versions were either copies that came out before the black folder was available, or copies run off after the black folder ran out", although both of these could also be true.

Still got those "crimp marks" to cross-check, btw...

=
p.s. That further background was very interesting, too. :D
Thank you Brad (*waves hiya*) & Mike, for forwarding.

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:26 am 
 

Howdy All,


Here is what I have:

Black Folder (24 sheets all white; offset printing w/ grid, no streaks):

01 Black Folder
01 Title page/use sheet, single-sided
01 Background sheet, single-sided
10 Map sheets, single-sided
10 Dungeon key sheets, single-sided
01 Copyright sheet, single-sided w/ single strip of glue along top of page


Yellow Cover Sheet Version (17 sheets; offset printing w/ grid, no streaks):

01 Title/Distribution sheet, yellow, double-sided
01 Background/Use sheet, white, double-sided
10 Map sheets, white, single-sided
05 Dungeon key sheets, white, double-sided


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 12:54 am 
 

The contributor I mentioned above sent me a scan of his copyright page, from the black folder version.  As he noted, the text pages look like this, with the streak marks on the lower right.  The map pages do not have any streaking.  He believes all the pages were offset printed:

Image

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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:16 am 
 

Wow, this just keeps getting weirder…. :?

1. About Stephen's Bella… I could swear I see faint marks where the graph in the rooms' should be.
From looking at his photo it looks like a copy of an offset version with the copier set to "lighter", and it lost the grid…or maybe it's a second or third generation copy of a copy.
Take a look a few posts up at our large comparison photo. *Look* at room "6" and the upper left corner of room "25". See how after one copy the graph is fading away.

2. Scott's contributor photo has the exact streak-marks of the TSR handbook only on his Palace copyright page they run the height of the page where in the handbook they run the width.
I reduced Scott's scan down to 81/2" X 11" and the streaks lined up. Notably the lower right corner and the streak running through the "e" in "exclusively" matched up with the same streak running across the handbook. I do remember Xeroxing where you could set the tray to copy either way, or depending how you feed it... :roll:

3. Picked this up recently. :wink:
Image

a. He's addressed in Victorville, CA…. only a stones throw from Long beach, i.e. Pete's Kerestan hometown before moving to Morro Bay and starting his own shop.
b. Gary Gygax is listed as one of the contributors.

Connections everywhere, but nothing solidifying…we could use some help.

Image

:idea: :roll: :idea: :roll: :idea: :roll:

BTW Scott, could your contributor send some pics of his Yellow-Covered version maps for comparison?


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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 4:48 am 
 

Here's a scan of a (portion) of a map, also from the contributor's black foldered version.  It does not have any streaks on it.

I've asked him to forward some sample scans from his yellow-covered version.

Image

  


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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:23 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:Wow, this just keeps getting weirder…. :?

1. About Stephen's Bella… I could swear I see faint marks where the graph in the rooms' should be.
From looking at his photo it looks like a copy of an offset version with the copier set to "lighter", and it lost the grid…or maybe it's a second or third generation copy of a copy.


I can see what you mean, but I believe what you're seeing is the map on the page behind the one that's visible in the photo.  That's evident when you shift the pages by sliding them between thumb and forefinger through the bag.  I'll try to get another shot with the pages slightly separated if possible.

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 7:29 am 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:I can see what you mean, but I believe what you're seeing is the map on the page behind the one that's visible in the photo. That's evident when you shift the pages by sliding them between thumb and forefinger through the bag. I'll try to get another shot with the pages slightly separated if possible.

Does that mean the other pages have a grid but the last one doesn't?


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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 9:56 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
afoolandhis$ wrote:I can see what you mean, but I believe what you're seeing is the map on the page behind the one that's visible in the photo. That's evident when you shift the pages by sliding them between thumb and forefinger through the bag. I'll try to get another shot with the pages slightly separated if possible.

Does that mean the other pages have a grid but the last one doesn't?


Hard to say without opening the bag, but I'll try to get a look at some of the other pages.

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 1:42 pm 
 

Here are the same pages, from the contributor's yellow-cover-with-artwork version.  He believes the map pages, at least, were photocopied.  There are no streaks on any of the pages.

Image

Image

  

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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 2:17 pm 
 

FoulFoot wrote:[ Image ]

Yep. That looks like a photocopy to me. This is a yellow cover version with the sketch of the tower on the front? Is the concensus thet the yellow tower copy was photocopied by TSR once Wee Warriors left the fold?


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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 3:52 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:This is a yellow cover version with the sketch of the tower on the front?

Yep.

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Post Posted: Mon May 02, 2005 10:53 pm 
 

Again, from the contributor:

My best guess, looking at the material empirically, is that my black folder version is made up of printed map pages and photocopied text pages, which suggests that, originally, the makers decided to print more copies of the map pages than the text pages because the text pages were easier to reproduce with a copy machine and would require less toner, thus saving money.  It may very well be that the black folder was an attempt at a deluxe edition after the first run was sold.  It could also be that the black folder was an in-house special.  I just don't know.  If you remember Mike Kuo, he bought a black folder in shrinkwrap off of Ebay a few years ago.  If he still has it, he might be able to shed some more light.

It's obvious that my yellow-covered version is a complete photocopy, except, maybe, for the cover.

  

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Post Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 4:31 am 
 

It's obvious that my yellow-covered version is a complete photocopy, except, maybe, for the cover.

This would seem to tie in with what we're seeing with Stephen's PoVQ and my original hypothesys that the 3rd was xeroxed from the 1st prints locally. Has your contact's yellow tower copy been authenticated? Does it have a credible pedigree?


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Post Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 9:37 am 
 

Okay, more pics here.  These first ones are of an interior map page in the Bella PoVQ, taken through the baggie.  The quality isn't the best, but it shows what I've been able to see on the other map sheets:  they don't have grid marks inside the rooms.

Image

Image

Here are a couple of closer shots of the map on the back page.  In the first one, in the uppermost room, you can just make out a circled "5" indicating room 5 on the adjacent map sheet.  These pics are meant to show that the traces of grid lines Mike was seeing on the previous pic of this map sheet are showing through from the sheet behind this one.  You can also see the hatching/shading from the underlying map sheet showing through inside the rooms.  The second pic here shows pretty clearly the lack of grid lines inside the rooms.

Image

Image

Finally, here are a couple of scans from my BF copy.  I noticed no streaking on the copyright page (looking down into the folder, since it's glued in).  The second pic is from the "Kit Use" page.  Check out the "v" in "consecutive".

Image

Image

It doesn't look to me like the bagged one here is a photocopy.  Any thoughts?

  

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Post Posted: Tue May 03, 2005 10:07 am 
 

I don't know as much about the printing process as others here. Could the printing plates be run without the half tone grid? Could it be a printing anomily, like when you print a picture and forget to run the red, and what you get is a misprint? Is this a PoVQ without the grey print applied?


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