Palace of the Vampire Queen print sequence
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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:30 pm 
 

actually david, in addition to what was just said there...the "crimp" in the middle of the page... Amanda has just come in and i was just showing her the pics of the pages....she suggested that it might be some form of watermark on the page itself?

now i think about it i dont remember feeling anything there and quickly looking, you certainly cant see something (maybe if i REALLY looked i might)....so that might figure ....

what do you think?

Al


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:42 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:actually david, in addition to what was just said there...the "crimp" in the middle of the page... Amanda has just come in and i was just showing her the pics of the pages....she suggested that it might be some form of watermark on the page itself?

If I might interject, I don't think watermarks were possible in the 70's were they, especially from a small printing company. I figure watermarks would not have been established until much more sophisticated computers were around to do it, although as proven earlier today, I could be wrong. :?


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:50 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
killjoy32 wrote:actually david, in addition to what was just said there...the "crimp" in the middle of the page... Amanda has just come in and i was just showing her the pics of the pages....she suggested that it might be some form of watermark on the page itself?

If I might interject, I don't think watermarks were possible in the 70's were they, especially from a small printing company. I figure watermarks would not have been established until much more sophisticated computers were around to do it, although as proven earlier today, I could be wrong. :?

Watermarks are created by a mechanical process impressing a design onto the paper, either continuously onto the roll or at fixed position(s) on cut sheets.
Is possible to buy watermarked paper, but wouldn't expect a watermark to appear /just/ at the top of the page in such a consistent fashion.

Hence wondering whether that's a relic of some kinda page feeder (which admittedly would have the same impact on the paper to a degree, albeit when it is "dry").

Just seemed like something to look out for with regards printing process used, in addition to all the other apparent variations and possible variations...

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:57 pm 
 

I don't remember the crimp mark at all, and I was pretty careful about scrutinising it when I got it from Burnie.

Could it be somthing in the paper itself that the scanner has picked up on?
Can you see anything with the naked eye?
Does it appear on the yellow cober sheet as well? Or just on the white sheets?


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 5:58 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:well tbh i REALLY don't wanna get it out of the wrapper again - gives me the jitters each time i do that :?

You're not joking, there! :?

The black folder is no less fun since you could be smashing the corners of the pages when putting them back in, without even being aware of doing so...
And if you don't place them in firmly enough and far enough to one side, they can fall into the centre crease and get bent in that.
*shudders*

(Black folder owners please note the above health warning, if not already worked that out! Only just noticed in time, myself).

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:01 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Does it appear on the yellow cober sheet as well? Or just on the white sheets?

*g*. Thinking along similar lines, Ian...

Might help indicate use of a different machine, especially if the printing mechanism for the white cover sheet is impossible to determine with certainty from examination of the shaded areas, etc.

  

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:28 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:I don't remember the crimp mark at all, and I was pretty careful about scrutinising it when I got it from Burnie.

Could it be somthing in the paper itself that the scanner has picked up on?
Can you see anything with the naked eye?
Does it appear on the yellow cober sheet as well? Or just on the white sheets?


awwwww man do i really need to get it out of the feckin wrapper again  :? i REALLY don't wanna do this :)


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 6:55 pm 
 

right i have just taken it out of the wrapping one last time - i am definately not doing it again :)

i have looked at every page in the module and i noticed this:

go back to page 3 and look at the scans i did. on the page with the level one map. look at the top. in the middle you will see the mark. look to the left and to the right - midway to the edge on each side. you will see faint marks similar to that one.

i checked every page. some have them marks and some don't. the yellow front page doesn't have any and some of the other pages don't have any either, some have one, some have two but the level one map is the only one where you can see three and if you look VERY closely, you CAN see them with the naked eye. i just never checked before.

i tell you what they DO look like. When the paper sometimes slightly catches on a roller in a printer/copier, you sometimes get that on the paper.

i don't think its a clip of any kind as its not evident on all the pages and i would have thought front and back would have been most evidently marked.

so what do you all think? does anyone else see any of these marks?

Al

ps. of course, IF it was caused by a roller...it might lead to something on how it was printed ?


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 3:10 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:right i have just taken it out of the wrapping one last time - i am definately not doing it again :)

i have looked at every page in the module and i noticed this:

go back to page 3 and look at the scans i did. on the page with the level one map. look at the top. in the middle you will see the mark. look to the left and to the right - midway to the edge on each side. you will see faint marks similar to that one.

i checked every page. some have them marks and some don't. the yellow front page doesn't have any and some of the other pages don't have any either, some have one, some have two but the level one map is the only one where you can see three and if you look VERY closely, you CAN see them with the naked eye. i just never checked before.

i tell you what they DO look like. When the paper sometimes slightly catches on a roller in a printer/copier, you sometimes get that on the paper.

i don't think its a clip of any kind as its not evident on all the pages and i would have thought front and back would have been most evidently marked.

so what do you all think? does anyone else see any of these marks?

Al

ps. of course, IF it was caused by a roller...it might lead to something on how it was printed ?

Could also be early sheetfeeding or duplexing possibly? Interesting discovery.


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:35 am 
 

Update. :D

Confirmed... Brad and Morno one in the same. He contacted me with a nice little e-mail. So tomorrow I'll spring a few questions on him. :roll:


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:57 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:Update. :D

Confirmed... Brad and Morno one in the same. He contacted me with a nice little e-mail. So tomorrow I'll spring a few questions on him. :roll:


Great work, IO.  Let us hear what comes of it.   :D

  


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:07 am 
 

Update,

Brad and I have been corresponding and he has been a treasure to chat with. :)

Well I've learned some things about what was going on with the Wee Warriors gang. Pete, Judy, and Brad were all D&D friends and lived in Long Beach, Ca, before moving north to Morro Bay, Ca, where Pete was opening a game shop. While in the process of moving from Long Beach…The Character Archaic, the PotVQ Black Folder, and the Dwarven 1st print were all printed in El Segundo, Ca, by Judy's Cousin Jerry Wellfonder at a print shop he owned. According to Brad it was a huge operation with the capable machines, i.e. a foil-stamping press. He remembers being there when they were running them off after hours… Oh the envy. 8)

After moving to Morro Bay Pete used a small local print shop to run off the now established Wee Warriors items i.e. Dwarven 2nd +. Brad also remembers by the time they had all settled in Morro Bay they were no longer being distributed by TSR, hence again the Dwarven 2nd (Produced and Distributed by Wee Warriors).

As far as the Xerox issue and not from Brad's memory, but from simple deduction TSR had to have Xeroxed them. Pete/Wee Warriors wasn't distributing the folder version and he had established his own company/store, and would and did change the distributed by in the Dwarven 2nd and the Palace Acaeum quoted 4th.

If I had to guess I'd say the Dwarven 2nd, Palace 4th, and Misty were printed around the same time, and the Dwarven 3rd and Palace 5th were printed around the same time. Brad remembers the small shop in Morro keeping these printing plates on file. Take a look at the covers, one color covers, then two color covers. Easily this later two-tone technique could be achieved from the same plates.

Oh, and yes, Brad may have some items and art tucked away 8O . I've been completely honest with him about the potential value of these items, and if "that old box of stuff" turns up I'm going to help him in determining values, and bringing an auction to you guys.

BTW Clarkie, and to quote Brad, "I googled my old pen name and finally came up with the forum discussion about the editions of "Palace of the Vampire Queen". For the sake of bclarkie's peace of mind you can let him know that I'd made up the name Morno as an anagram of "Moron", which was something I liked about it :)."… Yes he's been lurking around here since I contacted him. :wink:

Mike


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:14 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:Update,

Brad and I have been corresponding and he has been a treasure to chat with. :)

Well I've learned some things about what was going on with the Wee Warriors gang. Pete, Judy, and Brad were all D&D friends and lived in Long Beach, Ca, before moving north to Morro Bay, Ca, where Pete was opening a game shop. While in the process of moving from Long Beach…The Character Archaic, the PotVQ Black Folder, and the Dwarven 1st print were all printed in El Segundo, Ca, by Judy's Cousin Jerry Wellfonder at a print shop he owned. According to Brad it was a huge operation with the capable machines, i.e. a foil-stamping press. He remembers being there when they were running them off after hours… Oh the envy. 8)

After moving to Morro Bay Pete used a small local print shop to run off the now established Wee Warriors items i.e. Dwarven 2nd +. Brad also remembers by the time they had all settled in Morro Bay they were no longer being distributed by TSR, hence again the Dwarven 2nd (Produced and Distributed by Wee Warriors).

As far as the Xerox issue and not from Brad's memory, but from simple deduction TSR had to have Xeroxed them. Pete/Wee Warriors wasn't distributing the folder version and he had established his own company/store, and would and did change the distributed by in the Dwarven 2nd and the Palace Acaeum quoted 4th.

If I had to guess I'd say the Dwarven 2nd, Palace 4th, and Misty were printed around the same time, and the Dwarven 3rd and Palace 5th were printed around the same time. Brad remembers the small shop in Morro keeping these printing plates on file. Take a look at the covers, one color covers, then two color covers. Easily this later two-tone technique could be achieved from the same plates.

Oh, and yes, Brad may have some items and art tucked away 8O . I've been completely honest with him about the potential value of these items, and if "that old box of stuff" turns up I'm going to help him in determining values, and bringing an auction to you guys.

BTW Clarkie, and to quote Brad, "I googled my old pen name and finally came up with the forum discussion about the editions of "Palace of the Vampire Queen". For the sake of bclarkie's peace of mind you can let him know that I'd made up the name Morno as an anagram of "Moron", which was something I liked about it :)."… Yes he's been lurking around here since I contacted him. :wink:

Mike


MOST interesting.  Many thanks for the post, and for the investigative work behind it.  Did you ask Brad why there are apparently many different foldered verions of the PoVQ?  I.e., some with yellow sheets, some without, some with scrollwork on the intro page, some without, etc.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:30 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:...Pete/Wee Warriors wasn't distributing the folder version and he had established his own company/store...

Heh... Well, part of one of my "guesses" appears to be in some way correct. Will do for me, anyhow, given my recent record... :roll:

Excellent follow-up, Mike. And here's me just thinking you were going to ask him whether he still had the cover art for Dragon #6 and snag anything else in passing. ;)
(Too honest for your own good, sometimes, huh?) :P

Thanks for sharing! :)

  


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:48 pm 
 

Wait a minute :idea: :roll: … I just noticed something! Stephen (afoolandhis$), your Acaeum quoted 3rd print Palace looks to have a complete absence of the grid in the interior of the rooms.

Image

As apposed to mbassoc2003 Acaeum quoted 1st print…which has the broken up grid from Xerox type copying.

Image

Then there's the obvious variation of the offset two-tone printed Black-folder.

Image

Hmmmmm :?: :roll: … after further correspondence with Brad on this topic some interesting facts have come to light: :D :!:

1. Brad doesn't remember anything ever done by Wee Warriors that wasn't offset printed.

2. According to Brad, the 1st print PotVQ was - as we noted --an expensive cover. This was only practical, while Jerry Wellfonder was doing the printing, because it was done at cost.

3. Brad also has offset printing knowledge and I had him take a glance at the above photos. He slightly remembers Pete ran off one other less quality printing of the Palace in transition from Long Beach, and the use of Judy's cousin Jerry's print shop…(responsible for the Character Archaic, Black-Folder Palace, and Dwarven 1st), to A1 printing in Morro Bay (responsible for Palace 4th -5th , Dwarven 2nd-3rd , and Misty).

a. After examining Stephen's Acaeum quoted 3rd, Brad believes this was the one, done with paper-printing-plates. Again, not quite the quality of metal, but good enough for a quick run, and would explain the darkness in the cover text and art…as apposed to the blotchy older copier look and complete absence of the grid layer that would be choppy like in mbassoc2003 photo.

b. This would also explain the presence of the "printed" original cover art drawn by Judy, the one used as the original idea for the red-foil stamp.

So, if this is the case . . . the printing order is as follows:

1st. Black-Folder version… (Offset Printed two-tone with grid vs. architectural lines) It was printed in El Segundo, Ca… at Judy's Cousin Jerry Wellfonder's print shop.

2nd. Bagged Yellow-Covered version… (Offset Printed one-tone (Black) architectural lines, no grid inside the rooms) It was printed at an unknown print shop in CA. For obvious reasons i.e. printing costs… this second printing had to be only one color black ink and bagged as apposed the expensive Foil-Stamped Black Folders they were getting for a big discount at Jerry's shop.

3rd Bagged Coverless version (Xeroxed from Black-Folder version, it would have to have been because if it had been copied from the Yellow-Cover version there would be no broken up grid lines like in mbassoc2003's photo).
Brad, said again that he does not remember them ever Xeroxing any Wee Warriors stuff, and if they had they would have Xeroxed the cover art for the Acaeum quoted 3rd as well? They used it for the quoted 3rd.

So, only someone with a Black-Folder version and a copy machine could have made this version. Think about it… the older copiers leave the choppy grid and lines, and obviously you can't copy the cover, copy the folder on an old machine and all you'll get is a black page.

a. So, ether TSR the distributors of the original Black-Folder made these before they received the Yellow-Covered versions, if ever, or somewhere along the way someone bootlegged this version from the Black-Folder.
b. Brad also has printing knowledge and brought up an interesting fact - that copiers of the era "76" were even worse than I thought. They were streaky, they used a slick paper, and they also smelled (this I remember :x :lol: ). It wasn't until ‘80-81 that copying at any descent level came around.

Like I stated, we have a 1976 TSR employee's handbook that was xeroxed in house. I'm going to post a few pic's to see if there's an off chance any of the streaks match. If one of the gang could post pic's of this version that would be 8) .

Mike

Oh… and confirmed, Dwarven 2nd, Palace quoted 4th, and Misty were all printed at the same time... and Dwarven 3rd, and Palace quoted 5th were printed at the same time as well at the A1 print shop in Morro Bay.

That's it I'm fried!... Making discoveries makes my face look like this 8O, but typing a post this long... first my back feels a little :evil: :evil: , then it moves on to more like :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:. It's guess it's all in the name of good clean D&D fun :lol: ...Ouch..I can't move.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 7:22 pm 
 

There appears to be a grid behind the hatching? But not in the rooms? Could that be a xerox anomily?


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:59 pm 
 

Incredibly interesting.  Many, MANY thanks for digging into this and passing along Brad's comments.  Wonderful work!  :D

  

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 9:27 am 
 

I have an Acaeum-quoted 1st print.  Unlike mbassoc's copy, my copy resembles the black-foldered version (other than the absence of the black folder) -- two-tone printing, visible grid.  There's no evidence that the yellow (cover) sheet was ever attached to anything with tape or glue, and of course it's double-sided.

Today, I brought it over to a friend's, to look at it under a microscope.

All of the pages were definitely produced on an offset press (what I expected).  The "two-tone" print (the light gray grid) is actually a halftone, which requires pretty good resolution in the printing plates.  So that reinforces the assumption that the Black Folder print -- and this print -- were printed on a quality press.

Based on this, I'd further revise the print sequence as follows:

    First. With a black folder or in a Ziploc bag.  Offset printed with gray grid on maps.  The "quality" print, printed in El Segundo, CA at Judy's cousin Jerry Wellfonder's print shop.  The Ziploc-bag versions were either copies that came out before the black folder was available, or copies run off after the black folder ran out.

    Second. Bagged Yellow-Covered (with artwork) version. Offset printed, but less resolution -- one-tone (black) architectural lines, no grid inside the rooms. Printed at an unknown print shop in CA. Due to printing costs, this second printing was on a cheaper press, and featured a yellow-paper cover (with artwork) instead of the expensive foil-stamped black folders they were getting for a big discount at Jerry's shop.

    Third. Bagged Yellow-Covered (no artwork) version. Xeroxed from a 1st print by an entity other than Wee Warriors (possibly TSR).  Features black, jagged grid lines on maps, some streak marks. I'm guessing that these prints will be 24 pages, as opposed to 17? (easier to make single-sided copies as opposed to double-sided, which may have resulted in a massive jam inside the photocopiers of the time?
Unfortunately, it will be very difficult -- if not impossible -- to tell if a 3rd print copy was photocopied by TSR in 1976-1977, or by someone else later.  Other than making a forensic note of where exactly those streak marks are on a "genuine" 3rd print, and using that to compare with other questionable copies.

Great work on this, IO.  Further comments and theories welcome.

Foul

  
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