Palace of the Vampire Queen print sequence
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 19 of 21123 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 2021
Author


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:58 pm 
 

Adam Shultz wrote:I understood that to mean that he was trying to sell the version he just sold off to A2Jeff.

At present that copy cannot be shown to be any different to a standard yellow scrollwork cover ziploc (June 1976 or later), unless Jeff can find some constant printing difference which might show that the white pages are "earlier" than any of the others seen included in other copies thus far :(

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 210
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 25, 2018
Location: Northeast

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:04 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
Adam Shultz wrote:I understood that to mean that he was trying to sell the version he just sold off to A2Jeff.

At present that copy cannot be shown to be any different to a standard yellow scrollwork cover ziploc (June 1976 or later), unless Jeff can find some constant printing difference which might show that the white pages are "earlier" than any of the others seen included in other copies thus far :(


I'll do a detailed comparison of the pages in my black folder version (see page 1 or 2 of this thread for some details on my black folder copy contents, which differs from Harami's slightly) to the pages in the House Copy and see if I can notice anything.  Another possible approach is to compare white pages of the House copy to Killjoy's, should he want to extract them (again....).

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:15 pm 
 

(pretty much all the points tie back to observations of actual copies or comments from Pete (+ friend) that haven't been discarded. Any text emphasis in quotations is mine)


0/a. (originally stated as 1974 by Jeff). On revision (1975) perhaps.
White pages only. Stated to have been prior to the one year "gap" ending Jan/Feb 1976 (not 1975). Stated to have been bagged and shipped to TSR prior to(?) May 1976. Possibly impossible to distinguish from later copies minus the other components? May not exist. None seen.
[2-way/4-way alignment points would also rule out 1974 and early 1975, if confirmed. Jeff, whilst you're browsing through perhaps? ;)]
[However, "My first run on the AB Dick 360 printing press I had picked up was used to remake the inside pages on this item over Xmas leave in 74 (actually 1975?) and the cover was used starting in 75 (actually Feb 1976) with the shop opening" indicates a separate run. This is one of the hooks that made me run with the auction to such a degree, first time around]

0/b. White pages only. (Printed early 1976?) Possibly more than one print run owing to problems with equipment. Possibly double-sided and single-sided already at this stage. (Not impossible to believe late 1975, in which case would that not be 0a?). White pages only? Unsure if may have had a white cover sheet or not? ("the cover was used starting in 75 (actually Feb 1976) with the shop opening" combined with "sent... to TSR... a white copy of Brads cover art as well as a black folder copy". Can now discard the previous statement re. yellow cover sheet added to copy for shop opening, since that's dated June 1976 on the reverse).
Stated to have been sold locally. Could just have easily been the one Jeff bagged and shipped to TSR prior to(?) May 1976.
May be impossible to distinguish from later copies when stripped of their other components? None seen.

[Black folder printed prior to(?) May 1976 or before and sent to TSR prior to(?) May 1976]
[White copy of Morno scrollwork title/cover sheet sent to TSR prior to(?) May 1976 (still a query as to why this is dated 1975-76 if it wasn't actually used until much later... unless white copies do also exist with 0b. Possible significance of duplication of first part of "this kit contains" text with first white sheet uncertain although that does also hint at the possibility of an earlier flavor without the title/cover sheet)]

0/c. Black folder. Would have no reference to TSR distribution. May or may not have a scrollwork title sheet (more likely that it would, given cumulative indications). However, still uncertain as to whether black folder was actually used prior to TSR deal because, thus far, None seen.

1/x. Black folder. (June 1976) TSR distribution sheet. May or may not have had a fresh run of white sheets (although more likely carried forward from 0/x). Double sided or single sided may still reflect printing problems. May or may not have a separate scrollwork title sheet (yellow-orange, not bright yellow?). All maps two-tone grey grid?? Some copies with photocopied replacement sheets. $3.50 noted on partly customised original polybag with one copy.
Lack of scrollwork title sheet in some copies may be due to loss (less likely given two copies noted thus far which are otherwise fine?), that the scrollwork sheet was created later (unlikely given the cumulative evidence above), that they ran out of sheets (perhaps more likely) or that it wasn't deemed necessary to begin with, when the "foldered" release was created (*tries to remember if that "background" section is contained elsewhere on the white sheets*). Known to exist.

["When I ran out of the folder run the switch was made to this poly bagged version then over to the booklet when the printer took over"]
[Combined cover/title/distribution sheet on 2/x appears to be the same bright yellow as 3/x, as opposed to yellow-orange on 1/x, although no-one has all three to compare against, afaik...???]
[Early reviews/ads indicate black folder where format is noted]
[Black folder stated to have been sent to TSR prior to(?) May 1976, so did exist at the point, above]

2/x. Yellow scrollwork cover, polybagged. (no earlier than June 1976). Cover/title sheet combined with distribution sheet on single bright yellow page. May be double sided or single sided. All maps two-tone grey grid?? (Copies known with $3.50?). Known to exist.

[If copies of 2/x are known with $3.50, creating and adding in an expensively produced black folder and for no extra charge would be an interesting way to run business, given not a cent has been received from TSR]

(3/x lifting some comments from Ian's descriptions. Haven't been able to follow that print fully and haven't read back through that discussion yet).

3/a. Yellow castle cover. Ziplock. Distributed TSR. "Poor quality two tone grey grid present but broken in places" (?)

3/b. ? did we not have ones with missing grid (toymom copy, but is this not known to have been distributed by anyone in particular?)

[latest date for any official "circulated by TSR" copy = mid-autumn 1977(?) from combined evidence of OD&D supplements (does anyone has a 7/77 supplement??), GW ad, etc.]

3/c. Distributed via Zocchi? (?late 1977)
[Games Workshop ad indicates PotVQ eventually obtained via Zocchi after an extended period, but before Character Archaic was available again direct from Pete. Unknown how this reflects the actual situation in the U.S.]

3/b, 3/c dates interchangeable, perhaps? Insufficient data... Need to check for any other 'zine refs, etc. (Not possible to rule out that TSR may have printed copies "3/b"(?) after end of deal).
[ed.: $5 price tag on the toymom copy (store in Yakima) is actually more than the price stated in the (last?) WW digest pubs. (=$4.50). Local markup/whatever? Unsure what to make of this...]


=
Will have to read back through everything again at some point, since it's certain I've missed a few obvious points.
Is there any hard evidence that could be used to affect this sequence in any major or minor way?

Given the apparently shared internal pages and difficulty in determining whether a component item has just been discarded, I'd still be fairly happy to see 0/c thru 2/x rolled into a single "with/without folder" for the time being. In which case, 0/b may require re-evaluation if a white cover/title sheet copy comes up and 0/a if a copy with earlier text or printing points "prior to remake" appears. Both those would be preferred with good provenance, IMHO (certainly to a similar degree of proof required for an OD&D set to be declared a dated "prepub" even though the box labels may have been loose simply because it was an un-assembled staff copy of indeterminate date).

All comments/thoughts/grammatical errors 02 cents, only.

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:24 pm 
 

a2jeff wrote:I'll do a detailed comparison of the pages in my black folder version (see page 1 or 2 of this thread for some details on my black folder copy contents, which differs from Harami's slightly) to the pages in the House Copy and see if I can notice anything.

Thank you, Jeff :)

It's a pity the cover/title or copyright/distribution page(s) didn't pick up a bash somewhere along the line. Would have been somewhat easier than trying to chase minor differences within the actual white pages, given the potential for multiple other variations therein (possible multiple prints beyond the simple single/double sided flavors noted and difficult to know whether those may just have been stacked together and used as-and-when required, locally or via TSR).

a2jeff wrote:Another possible approach is to compare white pages of the House copy to Killjoy's, should he want to extract them (again....).

Heh, heh... we'll be talking about crimp marks again, next! :D

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 210
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 25, 2018
Location: Northeast

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:48 am 
 

Picture comparisions of the House Copy in Polybag to the Black Folder copy:

Black Folder Cover
Image

Polybag Cover (this is lighter yellow than the more orange yellow cover on the Black Folder version)
Image

Level 1 encounters Black Folder
Image

Level 1 encounters Polybag
Image

Level 1 map Black Folder
Image

Level 1 map Polybag
Image

Level 1 players map Black Folder
Image

Level 1 players map Polybag
Image

No real differences that I could see except generally a stronger/purer black in the Folder version and slight/faint lines around the cover artwork plates on the left hand side of the Folder version.

Anyone have a carbon dating machine?

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3798
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 02, 2021

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:03 am 
 

I wonder if the poly version is lighter because of fading.  Didn't Pete say it was the display copy in his shop?  Just a thought.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6487
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Nov 26, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:11 am 
 

I would have expected to see the grey grid in the black folder version maps!? Is the grey grid missing in your black folder version of PoVQ?


This week I've been mostly eating . . . gummy bears.

 WWW  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3798
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 02, 2021

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:18 am 
 

I think the grid is there, isn't it?  I can make it out, but that could be a trick of the eyes I guess.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 210
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 25, 2018
Location: Northeast

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:38 am 
 

Yes, the gray grid is definitely there on the folder version....see page 2 where I have a few other pics that were taken with my digital camera vs. the scanner.

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:44 am 
 

Thanks for the very nice scans, Jeff!
Do trust everything's still in minty condition :)

02 cents thoughts, in passing
mbassoc2003 wrote:I would have expected to see the grey grid in the black folder version maps!? Is the grey grid missing in your black folder version of PoVQ?

Oh, they're definitely there.

In fact, the black folder copies appear to be a generally finer print (less plate wear) for those maps compared with the "blobs" on the house copy in room 51 and across rooms 15 and 30, and roughness of some of the lines.
Just trying to convince myself that's wear and not over-inking. (For example, the line merging at the top-right of the player's map could be either.

There's no guarantee that the sheets weren't liberally stacked, mixed, etc. after printing (i.e. that the order of release doesn't match the order of printing), but to me this might tally with Pete's semi-contradictory comment about the house copy being a "later" one and not the original (1974/early 1975/late 1975/early 1976/whenever!) sheets... although I was really hoping that they might be.
Such differences are pretty small on the map pages, though, if so...
(Is still entirely possible that some yellow polybag copies do have those earlier, fine-print map sheets (after all, the single/double sided issue applies to both), but can't recall whether there are black folders with poorer/later(?) printed map sheets. Anyone??).

The pale chrome yellow compared with the more orange yellow on the scrollwork sheet (without the copyright on the reverse for the black folder copy) seems to tally with other yellow polybagged copies, but I'd /really/ like to know whether that's the same paper as on the yellow castle cover copies. Seems like a point well worth checking, IMO...

*browses back to have another check of the scans*


[ed. flicking to-and-fro between those images hasn't been particularly productive. No notable deformities on the text pages, thus far, apart from minor "breaks" on "owl" and "dungeon" which probably aren't significant. Plus a possible diagonal "scratch" through the "9" after the two giant rats on the house copy (constant scratch, trapped piece of dust, or whatever. Not sure)]

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3798
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 02, 2021

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:04 pm 
 

Setting aside the finer details of the dates and printings for a moment, this is the over-arching scenario that makes sense to me.

Production begins with:  white title page, no scrollwork, polybagged.  Very simple.  Doesn't catch much attention.

Next:  white title page, scrollwork, polybagged.  Timing perhaps coinciding with Brad getting set up in Pete's shop.  Still doesn't attract much in the way of attention/sales.  Need to ramp up the packaging.

Next:  yellow title page, scrollwork, bagged.  

Very soon afterward:  production of the black folders begins.  Some of the black folders are stuffed with the leftover sets that have a white title page without scrollwork, some are stuffed with the leftover sets that have a white title page with scrollwork, and the rest are stuffed with the newly-printed sets with yellow title page with scrollwork.  Sales pick up.

So it goes from there to the bagged castle printing and finally the digest printing.  The regression to a polybagged version (with the yellow castle cover) may have been motivated by deteriorating relations with TSR and resultant tightening of funds.  On the other hand, wouldn't the digest printing have been more expensive than the yellow castle baggy version?

I see the evolution of the module as driven by the need to increase visibility and shelf appeal.  From white, plain; to white, scrolled; to yellow, scrolled; to all of that plus black folders (re-packaging un-sold, early printings).

Any thoughts?

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:31 pm 
 

well that was kinda how i wanted to say it - you just said it far better than i did. sounds a far more sensible way to do things imo, but then, does all the detail we have, even allow this form of evolution possible?

i think its quite possible.

Al



  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 186
Joined: Apr 13, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 06, 2006
Location: At the Door of the Colorado National Monument

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:43 pm 
 

I thought David's chronology was on track, that the black folder predates any kind of yellow sheet, as described earlier:

Pete Kerestan wrote:
The product itself was first put out in a plastic bag with just a plain sheet front. They didn't sell to the hobby shops in LA at all well. I took the next step and had a black cover made up by my wife's cousin who had a print shop.


Am I missing something?

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:48 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:Setting aside the finer details of the dates and printings for a moment, this is the over-arching scenario that makes sense to me.

Production begins with: white title page, no scrollwork, polybagged. Very simple. Doesn't catch much attention.

Next: white title page, scrollwork, polybagged. Timing perhaps coinciding with Brad getting set up in Pete's shop. Still doesn't attract much in the way of attention/sales. Need to ramp up the packaging.

Exact components uncertain. Does seem like a good run-in, though.
Was in agreement with that, even though none have been seen and the first (if it exists) might be impossible to ID unless there are clear differences in the white pages.
Still no explanation as to why the copyright wasn't backdated to pre-June 1976, though.

afoolandhis$ wrote:Next: yellow title page, scrollwork, bagged.

Very soon afterward: production of the black folders begins. Some of the black folders are stuffed with the leftover sets that have a white title page without scrollwork, some are stuffed with the leftover sets that have a white title page with scrollwork, and the rest are stuffed with the newly-printed sets with yellow title page with scrollwork. Sales pick up.

On balance, in disagreement, per above.

The folders were produced before TSR got involved and were sent to TSR as part of the attempt to get a distribution deal. Why would Pete sit on them for many months until they ran out of yellow scrollwork polybags?!
The other way around still makes more sense on cumulative evidence (comments from Pete which we haven't yet discounted, generally finer map prints with the black folders(?), reviews and ads, cover price, color sequence for title page(?), availability of black folder, etc.)

afoolandhis$ wrote:So it goes from there to the bagged castle printing and finally the digest printing. The regression to a polybagged version (with the yellow castle cover) may have been motivated by deteriorating relations with TSR and resultant tightening of funds. On the other hand, wouldn't the digest printing have been more expensive than the yellow castle baggy version?

Yes, but they charged more, too. Was it not $4.50 for all of those??
(On the other hand, the toymom yellow castle had a $5 price tag. Go figure...).

afoolandhis$ wrote:I see the evolution of the module as driven by the need to increase visibility and shelf appeal. From white, plain; to white, scrolled; to yellow, scrolled; to all of that plus black folders (re-packaging un-sold, early printings).

Any thoughts?

White scrolled (presuming its existence) to yellow scrolled is hardly a major evolution step.
Can understand the general theory (hence the black folder!), but that's pretty thin to use as (almost) sole evidence for the printing sequence proposed for yellow scrollwork vs. black folder- i.e. on "aesthetic development grounds", alone.

It's clear that the "house copy" was not in existence "as a whole" when they opened their shop in Feb. 1976 (due to the June 1976 copyright/distribution reverse). Therefore, without any other clear dating evidence from the white pages therein (:(), that copy doesn't seem to be useable to set any dating precedent.

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3798
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 02, 2021

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:50 pm 
 

(referring to tfm's post above):

Good point, but I guess the question is what is meant by "plain sheet front"?

Could that refer simply to a lack of an illustration (castle), lack of scrollwork, or lack of cover (folder)?

Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should, but "plain sheet front" reads differently to me than would "plain front sheet".

Do we have any more info from Pete on that point?

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:55 pm 
 

tfm wrote:I thought David's chronology was on track, that the black folder predates any kind of yellow sheet, as described earlier:
Pete Kerestan wrote:
The product itself was first put out in a plastic bag with just a plain sheet front. They didn't sell to the hobby shops in LA at all well. I took the next step and had a black cover made up by my wife's cousin who had a print shop.

Am I missing something?

I don't think so.

We've discounted Pete's dates (just as we've had to do for Judges Guild and TSR in the past), plus the unfortunate confusion surrounding the "house copy".
However, many/most(?) of his other comments- like the one above- do appear to stand up in that framework proposed, for lack of any hard facts to counter the (admittedly partly circumstantial) balance of evidence.

Is still only 02 cents, tho'.

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 9:04 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:(referring to tfm's post above):

Good point, but I guess the question is what is meant by "plain sheet front"?

Could that refer simply to a lack of an illustration (castle), lack of scrollwork, or lack of cover (folder)?

Maybe I'm reading more into it than I should, but "plain sheet front" reads differently to me than would "plain front sheet".

Do we have any more info from Pete on that point?

> "We didn't know anything about copyrights, registering work etc. So
> you'll see the 75-76 date on the cover sheet which is his date on the art
> he did for the cover sheet. That sheet got added with my store opening"

> "He remembered I had sent the 74 poly bag item to TSR with a white
> copy of Brads cover art as well as a black folder copy to see if there
> was any interest. The date that I opened the shop was Feb of 76 not
> 75."

"Plain sheet front" is still confusing and we cannot take Pete's comment re. the addition of the scrollwork sheet to the bundle as gospel, for that shop opening date (owing to other confusions).
viz. for the first quote above, the quote continues "That sheet got added with my store opening, which was Jan of 75" which clearly did not make sense.

The proposal of two earlier versions; one (possibly) with a white scrollwork cover and one with no "cover" (and somehow "different" text setting?) is merely the best way I can see of covering the underlying observations/comments to get any release to predate June 1976.
*
There's certainly no evidence of a yellow scrollwork cover prior to June 1976 either from Pete's comments or the physical evidence unless you count the yellow-orange scrollwork cover which is only present in the black folder, afaik (and doesn't have the copyright/distribution details on the back).

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3798
Joined: Feb 23, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 02, 2021

Post Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 2:01 pm 
 

The black folder PoVQ that I just sold to a member here came from Rick Bauer in a poly-bag.  It appears to be an old bag, and the folder fits nicely in it.  I was wondering, does anyone have a foldered PoVQ that came with a bag, or does anyone know whether that printing was ever bagged?  It would be nice to know if it's the original baggy.


Let mirth prevail!

  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 19 of 21123 ... 16, 17, 18, 19, 2021