Palace of the Vampire Queen print sequence
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 16 of 19123 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 171819
Author


Prolific Collector

Posts: 210
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 25, 2018
Location: Northeast

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:10 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:jeff. does it have any (c) date anywhere on it?

Al


The copyright date is on the back side of the cover, just as stated in the Acaeum listing and just as it appears in the picture posted:
acaeum.com/DDIndexes/ModPages/ModScans/ ... MK1v1.html

harami2000 wrote:Pete's memories of adding the front sheets to that copy might still be correct (albeit not in the original auction date context).
Would that have been easy to do, or was the ziploc sealed?


Yes, the ziploc wasn't "sealed" i.e. never opened, and it would have been possible to assemble, reassemble the contents.  I found the maps/sheets slightly out of order, so it's likely the contents were perused through before.  The sheets are in minty shape though as far as corners/rounding so it wasn't used.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:15 pm 
 

that back yellow sheet is the same as mine i think.....mmm cant remember now.

oh man. *ponders removing PotVQ again* .... nah not that important :)

Al



  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 210
Joined: Nov 20, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 25, 2018
Location: Northeast

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:18 pm 
 

Another miniscule yet curious observation is that the yellow cover appears identical to the picture posted here on Acaeum:
acaeum.com/DDIndexes/ModPages/ModScans/ ... over2.html

Notice the slightly broken line under the am in Vampire Queen in the bottom border.  The House Copy has this same slightly broken/misprinted line.

I'll try to do a more exhaustive comparison to my black folder version when I have more research time.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:27 pm 
 

i should stop reading this thread :D

the curiousity got the better of me so i opened up mine *again*

the yellow sheet.

the back of the sheet is exactly the same and the front has the slight line blemish below the vampire too.



  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:28 pm 
 

aside: on that Zocchi copy (can't find the pics, but is discussed from page 5, onwards, in this thread).

From the GW Stock lists;
WD #1 (6/77 ): Character Archaic, PotVQ (both listed under TSR)
WD #2 (8/77 ): minis only :(
WD #3 (10/77 ): neither listed under TSR or elsewhere
WD #4 (12/77 ): "Back in Stock" PotVQ (LZ :D)
WD #5 (2/78 ): PotVQ (LZ), Character Archaic (WW ;))
WD #6 (5/78 ), etc.: re-formated, incomplete stock list

In which case, I'm not quite sure what to make of;
IO wrote:I've been in contact with Lou Zocchi, and he said that the Yellow-Covered-Copied-Version with his name and address was sold during his days of selling used and rare RPG's. He had nothing to do with its publication or real distribution. He was nice and also took it a step further by contacting Bill Jaffe who assisted Lou in selling collector sales at the time, and according to his recollection remembers the Folder-Version as being the first print.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:35 pm 
 

i dunno what to make of it all now really.

remember what pete said? something along the lines of:

they printed a load of copies. did the yellow ziplock out of the trunk of the car and they didnt sell well, so they went back and did the same but in the folder version and then they started to sell well.

if they didnt sell well in the first instance, ppl wouldnt necessarily remember them being around at that time?

d'ya think that has anything in it there?

he said they are both from the same print run didnt he? but then none of the dates kinda slotted together....frank mentioned about that....

Al



  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:42 pm 
 

a2jeff wrote:The copyright date is on the back side of the cover, just as stated in the Acaeum listing and just as it appears in the picture posted:
acaeum.com/DDIndexes/ModPages/ModScans/ ... MK1v1.html

:!:

What d'ya mean the copyright's on the back of the cover sheet?
*reads listing*. Oh... :oops:

*extracts folder very carefully again*

Separate yellow (well, orangish-yellow) cover sheet without copyright details on the back, in addition to that white copyright sheet stuck inside the folder.

Has all this been said before?
[edit: Yes, Jeff on his copy (page 2) and I must've glossed over or forgotten about that difference compared with the ziploc version somehow...]

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:51 pm 
 

yup :D

dont you just hate having to go look :)

i am like cringing each time i have to now.

:D

Al



  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:54 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:remember what pete said? something along the lines of:

they printed a load of copies. did the yellow ziplock out of the trunk of the car and they didnt sell well, so they went back and did the same but in the folder version and then they started to sell well.

Hmm... Yes, there was something like that at one point (quote?). However, that doesn't exactly tally with the following;
Pete Kerestan wrote:The product itself was first put out in a plastic bag with just a plain sheet front. They didn't sell to the hobby shops in LA at all well. I took the next step and had a black cover made up by my wife's cousin who had a print shop. This did some sales. I then got a press and ran the sheets again putting together a poly bag and adding a cover sheet that Brad did for me

That latter quote does hint at the cover sheet coming after the black folder (was initially made), although some black folders might have (an early version?) of it included, if the chronology is looking that way inclined.

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:56 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:yup :D
dont you just hate having to go look :)
i am like cringing each time i have to now.

Don't know which is worse, the ziploc or the folder?
Those sheets just want to keep falling down into the spine crease when trying to close it up... *shivers*

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:03 pm 
 

well i have now decided that i think that there isnt anything further to be gained by opening it up anymore :) i am just too scared of damaging the module!

we must be really close to this print process.

so has anyone got a copy with a plain sheet front then? - we really need to see this one too dont we....this will prb answer a lot of questions? what was the colour of the sheet with the "plain sheet front"?

why would pete have a house copy of one of the yellow ziploc's if it wasnt a 1st? surely you would keep one of your 1st copies for that? i know i would if i was in the same situation....

are there more than one print of the folder copies?

are there more than one print of the yellow ziploc's?

are there many differences in the folder version? ie enough to maybe establish that there may be more than one print? or is it maybe just print run anomolies?

Al



  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 186
Joined: Apr 13, 2005
Last Visit: Apr 06, 2006
Location: At the Door of the Colorado National Monument

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:15 pm 
 

In my LZ POTVQ (castle cover yellow) a Zocchi address label covers the TSR information.  It may be that the things sold out of his store he put labels on.  A lot of hobby stores put their own moniker on stuff.  If it was a bootleg, it would have been so much easier and smarter to copy a page with the label on it and then copy it for the boot copies, thus eliminating any obvious signs of illegality.  Either that, or he bought a bunch of copies from WW (cheap) that had the now defunct TSR information (when relationships go bad), and just pasted labels over them (it has been pointed out that several WW items have marked out TSR info).  The castle cover yellow does have the same image as the black folder.  I'd have to see another castle cover yellow to see if the Zocchi is a re-labeled brother or a doppelganger.  Perhaps TSR put it out with a different cover (after the bitter divorce).  The only emergent truth here is that either WW, TSR, or Zocchi made the castle cover yellow.  The whole affair does seem to stink.

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:19 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:why would pete have a house copy of one of the yellow ziploc's if it wasnt a 1st? surely you would keep one of your 1st copies for that? i know i would if i was in the same situation....

Would have thought so, but appears not to be the case here.

Either the cover/copyright sheet was added later (in which case, why is "House Copy" on the front of that, given the stated "shop opening" context?) or else he just pulled one later when they got the TSR deal. And whether or not that might be a separate print as Pete appears to be stating in some of his messages, is probably going to be obscured by the fact that there are various double-sided/single-sided/etc. printing batches, anyhow, owing to problems they were having with the machine.

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:25 pm 
 

tfm wrote:The only emergent truth here is that either WW, TSR, or Zocchi made the castle cover yellow. The whole affair does seem to stink.

That's the truth :(
Pete definitely got the raw end of the deal, regardless of all this printing technicality stuff.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:15 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:
tfm wrote:The only emergent truth here is that either WW, TSR, or Zocchi made the castle cover yellow. The whole affair does seem to stink.

That's the truth :(
Pete definitely got the raw end of the deal, regardless of all this printing technicality stuff.


yeah aint that the truth of it - thats for sure

:?

so its definately established that the LZ version is AFTER the yellow ziploc and the black folder?



  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:26 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:so its definately established that the LZ version is AFTER the yellow ziploc and the black folder?

Yellow Palace (current 3rd) already seemed that way from other cumulative evidence ($5 price tag, single tone "printing", not mentioned in earlier reviews, etc.).

Would be good to know whether LZs are a subset of those alone, or whether there may be confirmable copies of earlier "prints" with a LZ label stuck over the TSR distribution text.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 4:57 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:Yellow Palace (current 3rd) already seemed that way from other cumulative evidence ($5 price tag, single tone "printing", not mentioned in earlier reviews, etc.).

Would be good to know whether LZs are a subset of those alone, or whether there may be confirmable copies of earlier "prints" with a LZ label stuck over the TSR distribution text.


right well thats something. so we have a LZ yellow palace third for now.

so if there is an earlier print, with an LZ label stuck over the TSR text, would that not just mean that they are a left over run from the earlier print? so we would have a later subset of the same print?

btw mine has the original ziploc too...forgot to mention that last night....least thats what the burnie bros wrote on the card insert with the mod anyway and it looks old enough to be the case. has a $3.50 tag on the ziploc too.

btw the LZ yellow palace third. does it have the same yellow cover as mine?

so the copy AFTER the LZ...is the one with the picture on the yellow cover?

Al

ps. sorry if i am going over and over stuff already printed. am trying real hard to get all this set in my head so i know where i am :)



  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6360
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 02, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 5:51 am 
 

It seems that the print sequence is something like this...

1a. Pre-pub yellow cover without scroll work on cover in ziplock (some sold privately)
1b. Pre-pub yellow cover with scroll work in ziplock (some sold publicly through PK's store)
2. Black foldered loose leaf (1st public release through TSR)
3. Yellow cover with scrollwork in ziplock (no apparent distingishing differences from the prepub, so one should assume a yellow ziplock falls into this catagory)
4a. Yellow cover with castle to mimic the black folder cover in a ziplock bag. (Poor quality two tone grey grid present but broken in places.)
4b. Yellow cover with castle to mimic the black folder cover in a ziplock bag and Lou Zocchi's details stuck over the TSR contact details. (Poor quality two tone grey grid present but broken in places.)
4c. Yellow cover with castle to mimic the black folder cover in a ziplock bag. (monocrome printed grid but broken in places.)
5. 1st print of the digest sized staples booklet.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . minestrone soup.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8219
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 12, 2017
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:07 am 
 

sounds fair enough to me really.

does anyone have one of the 1a or 1b? if so, a nice scan of the (c) page or 1st page would be nice for everyone to see on here.

so the black folder (2) and the yellow zip (3 - which is assumably my one at this point?).....was it not mentioned that these came off the same print?

or was it established now that the black folder ones are a seperate print in its entirety.

also, would a pre-pub be a 1st print? or just a pre-pub :)

also, david mentioned earlier that its quite possible that some of the black folders "might" have been printed pre-TSR agreement, so hence not having the (c) sheet. is this a definite fact now? or are we still stuck with a black folder TSR and a yellow zip TSR. or is there sound fact or pre-TSR for both?

of course, if it WAS the case, that there is a certain pre-TSR for them both, if they actually all came off the same print, we would be left with an a. black folder pre-TSR, b. yellow zip pre-TSR, c. black folder TSR, d. yellow zip TSR.

is that right?

Al

ps. i bet i am really causing issues here arent i? maybe i should just shut up and talk about the weather or some other such nonsense :D



  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6360
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 02, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:36 pm 
 

By all accounts the pre-pub 1b is no different from the 3 ziplocked yellow cover with scroll work. It's down to pedigree and a credible history to prove a 3 is in fact a 1b.

The only evidence that 1a exists is the mention of it by PK and possibly the coverscan on Afterglo (although I suspect the Afterglo cover scan is a ringer).

I'd say 2 and 3 are the same print run with 2 being the premium TSR product, and 3 being the excess printed stock.



Prepubs
2 pre-pubs

1st Prints
with black folder
without black folder in ziplock

2nd Prints (yellow tower cover)
TSR (poor grey grid)
Zocchi (poor grey grid)
TSR (monochrome grid)

3rd Print +
Digests


This week I've been mostly eating . . . minestrone soup.

 WWW  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 16 of 19123 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 171819