tfm wrote:Perhaps it's time for another subweb.

Jeff, if you need information or scans of anything I have, please ask.

Thanks TFM, we'll likely need your help on these comparisons and investigations.  

As to a separate subweb, I would agree it might be time for one and would be glad to moderate or assist with these efforts.

Was just checking to see if the copyright sheet glued into the back of my foldered PoVQ differed in any obvious ways from the rest of the sheets - and it doesn't, as far as I can tell.  The paper is a slight bit whiter than the other sheets, but the font size and type appears identical to that on the other sheets.

However, I did notice that in the description of room 10 on Level IV, the word "Gems" has the "m" and "s" overlapping.  On the previous page, room 27 of Level III, "Gems" appears as "Gems"; i.e., with no overlapping of the "m" and "s".  

Don't know if this info is worth anything, but can someone with a non-foldered, but non-booklet, version tell me if that same abberation appears in theirs?

I'll check the hybrid/1st print/house copy/2nd print/3rd print/whatever print when it arrives  :wink:

Sounds like you got a very nice 1st print house copy directly from the publisher at an extremely reasonable cost. And a nice piece of history to boot!

Congrats!!  :D

a2jeff wrote:So, where does this leave us I can post any pictures as well if that would help.

Thanks v.m. for opening the mod and peeking inside, Jeff.
Am sure that was a delicate operation.

Pete's memories of adding the front sheets to that copy might still be correct (albeit not in the original auction date context).
Would that have been easy to do, or was the ziploc sealed?
However, why would "House Copy" be written on the front sheet (if we now think that might be later from the black folder evidence, albeit with that copyright page stumbling block) rather than on the front of the ziploc or the first white sheet, if that had been the house copy back in Feb '76 when their shop opened?

Or else, Pete's friend's account got garbled there as well and the shop copy was just pulled from the "complete" assembled copies (c. June '76) they sent up to TSR (minus black folder). (To celebrate the TSR deal?).

The black folder must've been available earlier, if Pete sent one up to TSR as a sample, but there's still not one been found without the cover and copyright sheet afaik.


<clip later message from Pete>

Pete Kerestan wrote:Talked with one of my old gamers last night and he corrected some things I had forgotten.
...
He remembered I had sent the 74 poly bag item to TSR with a white copy of Brads cover art as well as a black folder copy to see if there was any interest. The date that I opened the shop was Feb of 76 not 75. And it was May of that year before I reached an agreement with them and sent the first items up. When I ran out of the folder run the switch was made to this poly bagged version then over to the booklet when the printer took over. He remembers it cause I did the proud parent bit pulling this from the run to put up behind the counter of the shop. So the pages in this are from the 76 run.

Any "facts" from the earlier messages (below) probably need to be even more carefully teased out from the obvious pitfalls (such as reference to the booklet form PotVQ in 1975).


<(re-)clip from six pages back to Mike/<IO>>

Pete Kerestan wrote:Hi, Yes I am Pete Kerestan. Your copy is the one following the poly bag. While in the service the black cover copy was put together in Morror Bay in 1974 by myself and my wife. In Feb of 75 with my shop open I began doing the booklet form on my own press from the existing product. Pete

<(re-)clip from six pages back to Mike/<IO>>

Pete Kerestan wrote:The product itself was first put out in a plastic bag with just a plain sheet front. They didn't sell to the hobby shops in LA at all well. I took the next step and had a black cover made up by my wife's cousin who had a print shop. This did some sales. I then got a press and ran the sheets again putting together a poly bag and adding a cover sheet that Brad did for me. This is the item currently on ebay, the original sheets and the new cover. In Jan of 75 a friend ran the shop till mid Feb when I got out of the service and took over the shop. I found a saddle back stapler and decided to go with the booklet form and abounded the idea of selling the product in my shop as a poly bagged item. This copy was put into my bookcase for shop use but I soon found most of us playing historical games and it just remained sitting here. Shortly after setting up a verbal agreement with TSR I turned over printing to a printer in Morro Bay and he did the printing on the products from that point on.

<clip earlier message from Pete>

Pete Kerestan wrote:Brad moved up to Morro Bay in 75 and I set him up with a place to stay for the artwork he was doing. We didn't know anything about copyrights, registering work etc. So you'll see the 75-76 date on the cover sheet which is his date on the art he did for the cover sheet. That sheet got added with my store opening, which was Jan of 75 as a friend of mine took care of it till my discharge in Feb. It was a bit funny that my old Captain stopped by the store 2 months later on a trip to SLO. My first run on the AB Dick 360 printing press I had picked up was used to remake the inside pages on this item over Xmas leave in 74 and the cover was used starting in 75 with the shop opening. The first poly version had a plain paper cover when I started and didn't have art for the cover and I didn't sell but a handfull to a shop in Venice Bach. I went to the folder idea and sold more that way. Very shortly I got a saddle back stapler and moved into the booklet form most people see today. Wow had to really reach deep to get to those old memory cells going again.

p.s. Did you like the photos?

harami2000 wrote:

killjoy32 wrote:jeff. does it have any (c) date anywhere on it?
Al

I kinda presumed on the copyright sheet, but that's still a valid question.

Is still strange that PotVQ wasn't backdated to the original printing (/idea?) date, whereas Endless was ("Copyright January 1975 - Distributed Exclusively by TSR Hobbies Inc.").

well i was just curious as to if it had changed any...anywhere else on the sheets know what i mean?

sounds to me like they had a lot of things all going on at once and it wouldnt surprise me if it all overlapped.

Al

killjoy32 wrote:jeff. does it have any (c) date anywhere on it?

Al

The copyright date is on the back side of the cover, just as stated in the Acaeum listing and just as it appears in the picture posted:
acaeum.com/DDIndexes/ModPages/ModScans/ ... MK1v1.html

harami2000 wrote:Pete's memories of adding the front sheets to that copy might still be correct (albeit not in the original auction date context).
Would that have been easy to do, or was the ziploc sealed?

Yes, the ziploc wasn't "sealed" i.e. never opened, and it would have been possible to assemble, reassemble the contents.  I found the maps/sheets slightly out of order, so it's likely the contents were perused through before.  The sheets are in minty shape though as far as corners/rounding so it wasn't used.

Another miniscule yet curious observation is that the yellow cover appears identical to the picture posted here on Acaeum:
acaeum.com/DDIndexes/ModPages/ModScans/ ... over2.html

Notice the slightly broken line under the am in Vampire Queen in the bottom border.  The House Copy has this same slightly broken/misprinted line.

I'll try to do a more exhaustive comparison to my black folder version when I have more research time.

aside: on that Zocchi copy (can't find the pics, but is discussed from page 5, onwards, in this thread).

From the GW Stock lists;
WD #1 (6/77 ): Character Archaic, PotVQ (both listed under TSR)
WD #2 (8/77 ): minis only
WD #3 (10/77 ): neither listed under TSR or elsewhere
WD #4 (12/77 ): "Back in Stock" PotVQ (LZ )
WD #5 (2/78 ): PotVQ (LZ), Character Archaic (WW )
WD #6 (5/78 ), etc.: re-formated, incomplete stock list

In which case, I'm not quite sure what to make of;

IO wrote:I've been in contact with Lou Zocchi, and he said that the Yellow-Covered-Copied-Version with his name and address was sold during his days of selling used and rare RPG's. He had nothing to do with its publication or real distribution. He was nice and also took it a step further by contacting Bill Jaffe who assisted Lou in selling collector sales at the time, and according to his recollection remembers the Folder-Version as being the first print.