Palace of the Vampire Queen print sequence
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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:56 pm 
 

My copy does not have the light grey grid as clearly and evenly printed as your photo. It is faint and it breaks up in areas, and has areas where it is dark.

Is yours the same as the photo above, David?

This is what mine looks like....

Image

If David's and Deadlord's black foldered versions are the same as IO's, I think we've found a difference between the first print in ziplock and the black folder.

I don't think the 1st print ziplock copies are press printed. I think they are Xerox printed. I suspect you'll find the third prints are the same and that either IO has a master, or the black foldered version is a higher quality print (therefore a separate print run).


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:09 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:
Take a look at the credits of the POTVQ

[ Image ]

That's it I'm done for the day :lol:


That's what mine says...so to return to my earlier question:  does the text "1st Printing June 1976" appear on all of the early versions?

  


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:44 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:No it did not, yours did? Wow it must be a large one.

Yup; oversized, too. They clearly had the same problem you had!
If it hadn't been for the written price which was apparently applied "at source" rather than at a retailer, I'd've been dubious about it being original.

mbassoc2003 wrote:My copy does not have the light grey grid as clearly and evenly printed as your photo. It is faint and it breaks up in areas, and has areas where it is dark.
Is yours the same as the photo above, David?

Same as Mike's, I'm afraid.
(Sorry; is now fully repackaged and stashed on top of the woodgrains and other stuff until I find some better way to display things safely. Had no fun putting all the pages neatly back into the folder!)

mbassoc2003 wrote:I don't think the 1st print ziplock copies are press printed. I think they are Xerox printed.

Hrmm... certainly looks like that with the monotone effect and broken-up replication of what was the lighter tone, doesn't it?
Impossible to tell whether that xeroxed from a master or from the printed version, if so??
(aside: The paper quality on the black folder copy seemed pretty good too, btw, but would need to recheck).

Of course, there could've been copies to make up numbers/keep it in print and there may still be some ziplocs with the two-tone versions.

Would be good to see a close-up scan of the same maps from each print.
The third print still "feels" quite a bit later, though (stop-gap reissue prior to the digest version, even?), even if the $5 price on Bella's copy might have included some local mark-up.

invincibleoverlord wrote:I suspect you'll find the third prints are the same and that either IO has a master, or the black foldered version is a higher quality print (therefore a separate print run).

Mike's came from Tadashi. (Did you ever ask whether it was a review or a purchased copy?).
The tri-folded (replacement/missed) page kinda hints at various possibilities, but nothing definitive.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:44 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:That's what mine says...so to return to my earlier question: does the text "1st Printing June 1976" appear on all of the early versions?

Fairly certain on that, unless someone "does a Rahasia"... 8)

  

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:46 pm 
 

Mine says 1st printing, and is printed single-sided, no mention of Wee Warriors. My booklet version lists no printing number


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:49 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Mine says 1st printing, and is printed single-sided, no mention of Wee Warriors. My booklet version lists no printing number

Two-tone coloring on the maps (grid vs. rooms) in the black folder version, per mine (IIRC) and Mike's?

(aside: *g*. I forgot to check Misty and Dwarven for any retail prices quoted for the PotVQ (at that time). Oops...).

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:45 am 
 

Harami wrote:

Mike's came from Tadashi. (Did you ever ask whether it was a review or a purchased copy?).


Actually I did, those questions exactly being industry alum. I got no reply. Aren't Allen (grodog) and him pals? Maybe we could ask Allen to rattle Tadashi's mind and see if he knows anything about this topic.

Here's why I ask. I got Tadashi addressed (from one of his mid-seventy's Space Gamers) in San Francisco, Ca. and it looks to be by a glance at a internet map of California about 150-200 miles (241- 321 km's :wink: ) north of Morro Bay, California.

In the Character Archaic the contact address is in Morro, Ca, and must be Morro Bay because the contact address in the Dwarven 2nd print and subsequent items we have is in San Luis Obispo, Ca, the next town over. It also interesting to note that in the Character Archaic is only produced by Pete Kerestan not Pete and Judy.

The gaming scene was small in the mid-70's, and you know how people know one another from con's and such and being in that proximity. Plus Pete obviously involved in the gaming scene industry to some degree (Making the first Character Sheets) in as early as 75, would be the kind of guy attending these kinds of events, and I'm sure San Francisco was the kind of place that would be hosting them as well. So maybe there's a connection.

Who is Pete Kerestan anyway :roll: ? And I mean that with all respect. Other then the guy opposite Judy Kereatan's on the Wee Warriors stuff. Was he involved in other aspects of the Game Industry? The guy must have attended early Gen Con's and what's his connection to TSR? How does a guy in the mid-70's mind you, from a small California beach, town hookup with Gary and the gang in little Lake Geneva? And then somehow in the middle of that connection start producing upstart D&D gaming ideas like the Character Archaic (ten times nicer than the 75 in-house ones, divided by class, artwork and all), and the first pre-made adventure. Are any of you guys on the Board's that Egg posts on? Maybe you could ask about Pete and his connection to TSR.

I had one more thought. The Tsojconth is Xeroxed. Maybe when TSR ran out of the Black-Folder version (The one mentioned in SR) they Xeroxed it from a Black-Folder version themselves 8O . Stuck it in a bag like the Tosj and just continued to sell it this way. It was distributed by TSR. Heck if it's selling Folder or not. Why not, plus could you guy's (Pete and Judy) send us some covers, or cover art to Xerox (If afoolandhis$ could check, Xerox or Printed), or we'll just make our own covers similar to the Black-Folder, notice there is a slight difference in the tower art. Windows are different and difference in mountains. Maybe someone redrew the tower and added in the "Vampire Queen" and wrote out those ghoulish letters, so the module could have a cover like the most likely newly arriving 1st print Dwarven Glory's. Just some thoughts.

The tri-folded (replacement/missed) page kinda hints at various possibilities, but nothing definitive.


Looks mailed, folded to fit in an envelope. Most likely mailed as a replacement as it was apparently missing from the module. After closer examination of the page; it to is Xeroxed, so if Tadashi ordered the POTVQ from TSR, wrote a letter back saying he was missing the page, and they Xeroxed him a copy because they were out of them, from a house copy, meaning they had no access to house surplus, other than taking an original printed one from a Folder. As these where printed in Ca and sold out of Wisconsin.  

Also, one final thought the pic of the Dwarven 1st has to be printed its red ink (no color copier in the mid-70's). And anyone who knows Red won't show up on a copy machine. Maybe that's why it's so rare? Or maybe the now established Wee Warriors had stepped up to keep up with the demand by getting the Dwarven 2nd out quickly in the new more TSR orientated Digest size to fit nicely in your wood grain D&D box. Why else the switch to Digest-Size other then cost?

That's it for me :lol: , I'm sure I'll dwell on this some more…….Ahhh Hay, it gives me something to do while in covered in Joint Compound doing construction at the new Hall. 8O  :lol:


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:15 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Mine says 1st printing, and is printed single-sided, no mention of Wee Warriors.


Is that a foldered version?

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:26 pm 
 

I will pull out my black folder version and provide some additional details for comparison.  I can tell you mine is all single sided pages, like Frank's.  I'll comment on the copyright wording and the maps/lines this evening, and maybe even can post some pictures (if I can figure out how!!)   :oops:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:04 pm 
 

a2jeff wrote:I will pull out my black folder version and provide some additional details for comparison. I can tell you mine is all single sided pages, like Frank's. I'll comment on the copyright wording and the maps/lines this evening, and maybe even can post some pictures (if I can figure out how!!)  :oops:


Great, thanks.

I went to image shack (ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting) and posted my pictures there, then used the image links to get them up here as clarkie described above.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:00 pm 
 

Thanks for the imageshack recommendation!! 8)

OK, here's details on my copy, a black textured foldered version with the trademark red foil cover:

Right side
1 yellow single sided cover sheet, DUNGEON MASTER KIT - NUMBER ONE
1 white single sided background page
1 white single sided This kit contains sheet (with map symbols at the bottom)
1 white glued copyright page

Left side
10 single sided level contents/encounter descriptions
10 single sided maps

Glued Copyright Page:
Image

My maps show the two-tones for sure....the grey grid lines and the darker black architechtural features:
Image

Hope this helps!!  :D

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:09 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote: Art Work by Brad Schenck -- Where? The only art in the thing except the cover credited to Judy is the repeated border on the 8.5" X 11" pages and its signed Morno. The same can be said about the Character Archaic cover art and interior art of Magic-Users, Fighters, etc. all signed Morno, but art work again credited to Brad Schenck? Could Morno be Brad, sort of a tag name? BTW once you get to the Dwarven Glory 2nd print Art Work is credited to Morno. Puzzling!


Just a quick observation on this. Brad Schenck could have done the cartography for the module. DCS III was a TSR artist, but if you look at several modules he did work on, he only did the cartography work. Just a thought. :D


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Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:49 am 
 

First I just want to edit an earlier error on my part. The Character Archaic contact address is in Morro Bay, California. I was working off my memory and an internet search for "Morro". I just want to keep the facts strait.

I have a theory :idea: about the PotVQ printings. It's just a theory based on our research and a little deduction, so feel free to shoot holes in it.

I had all of our Wee Warriors stuff out in front of me, the PotVQ Black-folder, PotVQ 4th and 5th print , DG 2nd, Misty, Vanquished Foe, Dog Tags, etc. So I checked everything to see if it was printed or Xeroxed. All of it was printed, again most likely from paper printing plates.

Hmmm…. so why this Xeroxed bagged version? It just doesn't seem like the people taking the time and money to produce these items would make a run of Xeroxed ones. Especially giving the "printer credit", and notice there's at least to my knowledge no other Xeroxed versions of any Wee Warriors stuff.

So if they didn't make them than who did? It's obvious that the Xeroxed bagged version is copied from one of the Two-Tone printed Black-Folder version. Run one printed page off on an old copier and see what I mean, I did a little test on an older copier machine. The results matched mbassoc's picture and description.

The next thing that's interesting to note is that the PotVQ was being exclusively distributed by TSR, which means they were the only ones selling it, and it's being produced by Pete and Judy Kerestan, which means they were the ones making it i.e. printing it in California. (The Black-Folder version)

Also notice there's no contact address in the PotVQ, so anyone trying to acquire one would have to do so through TSR, hence the exclusive distribution.

So what I'm driving at is TSR Xeroxed them. There are other TSR Xeroxed items, Tsoj, R pre-pubs, and I know TSR had a copier from a 1976 TSR employees handbook we have (10 or so Xeroxed pages). Also the only other module produced in 76 was the Official Dungeon of GenCon IX also Xeroxed.

They must have run out of the Black-Folder version, and just ran some off. Demand most likely was higher than expected, and making copies was just an easy solution. Also think about it; why would Pete and Judy Xerox them? Since the bagged version is copied from a Black-Folder printed page, why would you Xerox them and ship the across the country when TSR could just copy them in Lake Geneva from a house copy the place they were being distributed out of. And since there was no way to copy the folder they just stuck it in a bag like the Tsoj. Bagging was a standard TSR method of housing some of it's games around this era.

The Acaeum quoted 3rd is the only piece of the puzzle left in my mind. From the looks of afoolandhis$'s photo of the cover it appears to be printed (Please Check), so did the Wee Warriors gang print covers and send them to TSR, or like I earlier theorized that someone at TSR redid the cover. I'd bet if it's printed then Wee warriors printed them and shipped the covers to TSR. Most likely the original Cover Art the Black-Folder foil-stamp is derived from that Judy is credited for.

WARNING!

There is one Dark Side to this discovery. The vulnerability to forgery; anyone with a Black-Folder version and access to an older copier could easily reproduce a bagged version. You're only saving grace would be if you had an Acaeum quoted 3rd and the cover is truly printed. If you have a Xeroxed version now I'd bet it's real, but if the Acaeum PotVQ printing-order and description gets amended, I'd be leery in the future. There definitely going to be vulnerable to forgery. And a hot ticket item like the First Module printed, as our collecting field grows, so will the demand for this landmark D&D collectable.

Well that's it please throw some feedback at this, I'd love to hear some opinions.


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Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:56 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:There is one Dark Side to this discovery. The vulnerability to forgery; anyone with a Black-Folder version and access to an older copier could easily reproduce a bagged version. You're only saving grace would be if you had an Acaeum quoted 3rd and the cover is truly printed. If you have a Xeroxed version now I'd bet it's real, but if the Acaeum PotVQ printing-order and description gets amended, I'd be leery in the future. There definitely going to be vulnerable to forgery. And a hot ticket item like the First Module printed, as our collecting field grows, so will the demand for this landmark D&D collectable.

Well that's it please throw some feedback at this, I'd love to hear some opinions.

With you 100% on that, Mike.

Was definitely keen to pick up what appeared to be a "sealed" 3rd print from someone who didn't have a clue about it for that reason...
Bella's was well worth going after in that context, even if only 85% certain without closer inspection.

The recent UK 3rd print also has a very good pedigree (and would also have been an easier one to check for duplication method, since it wasn't sealed), but I certainly wouldn't pick one up from any-old-place.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:27 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote: So what I'm driving at is TSR Xeroxed them. ..
They must have run out of the Black-Folder version, and just ran some off. Demand most likely was higher than expected, and making copies was just an easy solution. Also think about it; why would Pete and Judy Xerox them? Since the bagged version is copied from a Black-Folder printed page, why would you Xerox them and ship the across the country when TSR could just copy them in Lake Geneva from a house copy the place they were being distributed out of. And since there was no way to copy the folder they just stuck it in a bag like the Tsoj. Bagging was a standard TSR method of housing some of it's games around this era.


Sounds reasonable to me.  I think you're on to something there.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:56 pm 
 

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? And could someone please PM me with Gygax's e-mail.


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:10 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:

Just a quick observation on this. Brad Schenck could have done the cartography for the module. DCS III was a TSR artist, but if you look at several modules he did work on, he only did the cartography work. Just a thought.


go up a few posts to the one with the scanned map page by mbassoc2003

*look* at the Morno 75-76, then look up at rooms "7" and "53" the 7 and the 5 are almost identical, and the map has a similar hatch-work to the border art. I'd bet that the border art and the architectural lines of the maze were drawn at the same time and the grid was a secondary thought, hence it not lining up with those lines.

What Forum does Gary Gygax post too?


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 3:28 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:What Forum does Gary Gygax post too?

Gary used to answer questions over on Dragonsfoot on the Lejendary Forum.
dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewforum.php?f= ... c70ff22983


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 8:11 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:bclarkie wrote:

Just a quick observation on this. Brad Schenck could have done the cartography for the module. DCS III was a TSR artist, but if you look at several modules he did work on, he only did the cartography work. Just a thought.


go up a few posts to the one with the scanned map page by mbassoc2003

*look* at the Morno 75-76, then look up at rooms "7" and "53" the 7 and the 5 are almost identical, and the map has a similar hatch-work to the border art. I'd bet that the border art and the architectural lines of the maze were drawn at the same time and the grid was a secondary thought, hence it not lining up with those lines.

What Forum does Gary Gygax post too?


IO, I just did a quick google search on Morno and the name of "Brad Schenk" together. This brought up one page....The Afterglow non-TSR page, which states:
Fourth Printing. Copyrighted in 1977, this book comes as standard size paper with printing on one side only, and stapled together with the envelope. Thus, to really use the book, you have to take it apart. The cover is a yellowish cardboard paper similar to the one used in the Collector's edition reprint of the D&D rules, and comes with artwork by Morno (the guy who made the cover of Dragon #6 - his real name is Brad Schenk). The monochrome painting depicts the Vampire Queen with two further undead critters at her side. Printing color is a brownish hue. Interior artwork is by Morno, too, and copyrighted 1975-76. You will also find mention of Wee Warriors other releases in the book itself. I may mention that this release is nothing else than editions one, two, or three diminished to half printing size and bound in a half-size book.


Here is a link to the page, it is about 3/4 of the way down the page as well as other info on Morno:
64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:5u2I3nJLa ... &hl=en

Good Call. :wink:

I also agree on the grid you noted being added after the fact, although when you inspect it closely, it seems shifted, but it is evenly shifted and space wise would match up perfectly if it was printed correctly. This would lead me to believe that maybe when the map was originally drawn, it was drawn on graph paper, but when they printed the module, it didn't print correctly and thus needed to be added on again after the fact,
<EDIT> or perhaps at the same time the outside artwork was added? :idea:


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Post Posted: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:15 am 
 

Further searching, I think I may have found our man. Check out this resime page:

http://www.webomator.com/bws/data/reresume.html

Maybe if someone emails him we can confirm this. If it the right guy, maybe he can clear up some of the prinitng issues with PotVQ. :wink:
=====================================================================
Here is why I think I may have our man(its about 3/4 down the page as well):
From around 1976 to the late 1980's I divided my time between commercial art, on the one hand, and illustrative but uncommercial paintings and drawings, on the other. These pictures were usually executed in watercolor or ink. Some of the commercial work was for small press magazines (Evermist, Wyrd), comix (Uncle Jam), and others.


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