Palace of the Vampire Queen print sequence
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Post Posted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:24 pm 
 

The last printing, digest version, says $4.50 each for PoVQ and Dwarven, and $5 for Misty on the back interior cover.


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:36 pm 
 

Harami wrote:

Mike, did your black folder come in a poly bag, or not?


No it did not, yours did? Wow it must be a large one. The only protection I've found for our copy was the "Life Magazine" size ones; the regular magazine-size ones are just a bit too small. I even had to buy a bag of 100 of these in a pack, because of the odd size, they don't sell these individually. But it was to be expected the folder was made to hold 8.5" x 11" pages comfortably for easy sliding in and out, as well as protecting those pages by a margin on all sides. It's a Standard Presentation Folder, these we're most likely (If I'm correct about the Print Shop Theory) made in house as well. We had a die in-house for punching out folders at our shop much cheaper than buying them, and what shop with a die cutter would anyway. Oh, how many of these I made :x .  

Here's that two-tone ink on our copy. Notice the light gray-tone graph under the dark-black maze. Again no copier of the era could differentiate these tones this evenly.    

Image

One other thing, I'm sure everyone with a any 1st print copy realized nowhere in the module does it mention Wee Warriors? The same can be said of the Character Archaic with a copyright of 75. Company in the making? I wonder if the Dwarven Glory 1st print can be said the same? I've never seen one. But what I can say is once you get to the Dwarven Glory 2nd print the name Wee Warriors in established and there's a much more developed product list.

Take a look at the credits of the POTVQ

Image

Produced by Pete & Judy Kerestan -- Produced means paid-for by or in this case written-by? Or both?

Printing and layout Jerry Wellfonder -- When does a printer himself get credit? Friend? Shop owner? I'd bet all of the above.

Art Work by Brad Schenck -- Where? The only art in the thing except the cover credited to Judy is the repeated border on the 8.5" X 11" pages and its signed Morno. The same can be said about the Character Archaic cover art and interior art of Magic-Users, Fighters, etc. all signed Morno, but art work again credited to Brad Schenck? Could Morno be Brad, sort of a tag name? BTW once you get to the Dwarven Glory 2nd print Art Work is credited to Morno. Puzzling!

Cover by Judy Kerestan -- Obviously this is credit for the Acaeum quoted third print cover art. "Jerry" gets credit for the printing and the layout, and he had to make changes (or with the help of her) to make it able to be foil-stamped i.e. the removal of the "Vampire Queen" from the tower, and the change from the hand drawn letters to the standard and old-english shop ones.

Just for clarity for those who don't know what I'm talking about when I'm speaking about Foil-Stamping, it's an expensive process. First you have to have some kind of original art or text (standards are readily available as for the text on the Black-Folder) Then you have to make a reverse-raised of the image on a metal plate hand-carved. This is why the "Vampire Queen" is absent form the Folder. "Jerry" must have to her For-Get-It; all those small detailed lines will never work. Plus one mistake trying to do something that detailed and it's ruined; you'd have to start over. Once you have your reverse image it's put on a plate much like what you'd think of on an old block-letter press, with screws to tighten the plate from the side. It's then heated by electric means and set up to coincide with a roll of foil. Burning the Foil onto the paper each time it stamps. It's very time consuming.

That's it I'm done for the day  :lol:


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:56 pm 
 

My copy does not have the light grey grid as clearly and evenly printed as your photo. It is faint and it breaks up in areas, and has areas where it is dark.

Is yours the same as the photo above, David?

This is what mine looks like....

Image

If David's and Deadlord's black foldered versions are the same as IO's, I think we've found a difference between the first print in ziplock and the black folder.

I don't think the 1st print ziplock copies are press printed. I think they are Xerox printed. I suspect you'll find the third prints are the same and that either IO has a master, or the black foldered version is a higher quality print (therefore a separate print run).


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:09 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:
Take a look at the credits of the POTVQ

[ Image ]

That's it I'm done for the day :lol:


That's what mine says...so to return to my earlier question:  does the text "1st Printing June 1976" appear on all of the early versions?

  


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:44 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:No it did not, yours did? Wow it must be a large one.

Yup; oversized, too. They clearly had the same problem you had!
If it hadn't been for the written price which was apparently applied "at source" rather than at a retailer, I'd've been dubious about it being original.

mbassoc2003 wrote:My copy does not have the light grey grid as clearly and evenly printed as your photo. It is faint and it breaks up in areas, and has areas where it is dark.
Is yours the same as the photo above, David?

Same as Mike's, I'm afraid.
(Sorry; is now fully repackaged and stashed on top of the woodgrains and other stuff until I find some better way to display things safely. Had no fun putting all the pages neatly back into the folder!)

mbassoc2003 wrote:I don't think the 1st print ziplock copies are press printed. I think they are Xerox printed.

Hrmm... certainly looks like that with the monotone effect and broken-up replication of what was the lighter tone, doesn't it?
Impossible to tell whether that xeroxed from a master or from the printed version, if so??
(aside: The paper quality on the black folder copy seemed pretty good too, btw, but would need to recheck).

Of course, there could've been copies to make up numbers/keep it in print and there may still be some ziplocs with the two-tone versions.

Would be good to see a close-up scan of the same maps from each print.
The third print still "feels" quite a bit later, though (stop-gap reissue prior to the digest version, even?), even if the $5 price on Bella's copy might have included some local mark-up.

invincibleoverlord wrote:I suspect you'll find the third prints are the same and that either IO has a master, or the black foldered version is a higher quality print (therefore a separate print run).

Mike's came from Tadashi. (Did you ever ask whether it was a review or a purchased copy?).
The tri-folded (replacement/missed) page kinda hints at various possibilities, but nothing definitive.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:44 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:That's what mine says...so to return to my earlier question: does the text "1st Printing June 1976" appear on all of the early versions?

Fairly certain on that, unless someone "does a Rahasia"... 8)

  

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:46 pm 
 

Mine says 1st printing, and is printed single-sided, no mention of Wee Warriors. My booklet version lists no printing number


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:49 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Mine says 1st printing, and is printed single-sided, no mention of Wee Warriors. My booklet version lists no printing number

Two-tone coloring on the maps (grid vs. rooms) in the black folder version, per mine (IIRC) and Mike's?

(aside: *g*. I forgot to check Misty and Dwarven for any retail prices quoted for the PotVQ (at that time). Oops...).

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:45 am 
 

Harami wrote:

Mike's came from Tadashi. (Did you ever ask whether it was a review or a purchased copy?).


Actually I did, those questions exactly being industry alum. I got no reply. Aren't Allen (grodog) and him pals? Maybe we could ask Allen to rattle Tadashi's mind and see if he knows anything about this topic.

Here's why I ask. I got Tadashi addressed (from one of his mid-seventy's Space Gamers) in San Francisco, Ca. and it looks to be by a glance at a internet map of California about 150-200 miles (241- 321 km's :wink: ) north of Morro Bay, California.

In the Character Archaic the contact address is in Morro, Ca, and must be Morro Bay because the contact address in the Dwarven 2nd print and subsequent items we have is in San Luis Obispo, Ca, the next town over. It also interesting to note that in the Character Archaic is only produced by Pete Kerestan not Pete and Judy.

The gaming scene was small in the mid-70's, and you know how people know one another from con's and such and being in that proximity. Plus Pete obviously involved in the gaming scene industry to some degree (Making the first Character Sheets) in as early as 75, would be the kind of guy attending these kinds of events, and I'm sure San Francisco was the kind of place that would be hosting them as well. So maybe there's a connection.

Who is Pete Kerestan anyway :roll: ? And I mean that with all respect. Other then the guy opposite Judy Kereatan's on the Wee Warriors stuff. Was he involved in other aspects of the Game Industry? The guy must have attended early Gen Con's and what's his connection to TSR? How does a guy in the mid-70's mind you, from a small California beach, town hookup with Gary and the gang in little Lake Geneva? And then somehow in the middle of that connection start producing upstart D&D gaming ideas like the Character Archaic (ten times nicer than the 75 in-house ones, divided by class, artwork and all), and the first pre-made adventure. Are any of you guys on the Board's that Egg posts on? Maybe you could ask about Pete and his connection to TSR.

I had one more thought. The Tsojconth is Xeroxed. Maybe when TSR ran out of the Black-Folder version (The one mentioned in SR) they Xeroxed it from a Black-Folder version themselves 8O . Stuck it in a bag like the Tosj and just continued to sell it this way. It was distributed by TSR. Heck if it's selling Folder or not. Why not, plus could you guy's (Pete and Judy) send us some covers, or cover art to Xerox (If afoolandhis$ could check, Xerox or Printed), or we'll just make our own covers similar to the Black-Folder, notice there is a slight difference in the tower art. Windows are different and difference in mountains. Maybe someone redrew the tower and added in the "Vampire Queen" and wrote out those ghoulish letters, so the module could have a cover like the most likely newly arriving 1st print Dwarven Glory's. Just some thoughts.

The tri-folded (replacement/missed) page kinda hints at various possibilities, but nothing definitive.


Looks mailed, folded to fit in an envelope. Most likely mailed as a replacement as it was apparently missing from the module. After closer examination of the page; it to is Xeroxed, so if Tadashi ordered the POTVQ from TSR, wrote a letter back saying he was missing the page, and they Xeroxed him a copy because they were out of them, from a house copy, meaning they had no access to house surplus, other than taking an original printed one from a Folder. As these where printed in Ca and sold out of Wisconsin.  

Also, one final thought the pic of the Dwarven 1st has to be printed its red ink (no color copier in the mid-70's). And anyone who knows Red won't show up on a copy machine. Maybe that's why it's so rare? Or maybe the now established Wee Warriors had stepped up to keep up with the demand by getting the Dwarven 2nd out quickly in the new more TSR orientated Digest size to fit nicely in your wood grain D&D box. Why else the switch to Digest-Size other then cost?

That's it for me :lol: , I'm sure I'll dwell on this some more…….Ahhh Hay, it gives me something to do while in covered in Joint Compound doing construction at the new Hall. 8O  :lol:


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:15 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Mine says 1st printing, and is printed single-sided, no mention of Wee Warriors.


Is that a foldered version?

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:26 pm 
 

I will pull out my black folder version and provide some additional details for comparison.  I can tell you mine is all single sided pages, like Frank's.  I'll comment on the copyright wording and the maps/lines this evening, and maybe even can post some pictures (if I can figure out how!!)   :oops:

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 1:04 pm 
 

a2jeff wrote:I will pull out my black folder version and provide some additional details for comparison. I can tell you mine is all single sided pages, like Frank's. I'll comment on the copyright wording and the maps/lines this evening, and maybe even can post some pictures (if I can figure out how!!)  :oops:


Great, thanks.

I went to image shack (ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting) and posted my pictures there, then used the image links to get them up here as clarkie described above.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:00 pm 
 

Thanks for the imageshack recommendation!! 8)

OK, here's details on my copy, a black textured foldered version with the trademark red foil cover:

Right side
1 yellow single sided cover sheet, DUNGEON MASTER KIT - NUMBER ONE
1 white single sided background page
1 white single sided This kit contains sheet (with map symbols at the bottom)
1 white glued copyright page

Left side
10 single sided level contents/encounter descriptions
10 single sided maps

Glued Copyright Page:
Image

My maps show the two-tones for sure....the grey grid lines and the darker black architechtural features:
Image

Hope this helps!!  :D

  


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Post Posted: Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:09 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote: Art Work by Brad Schenck -- Where? The only art in the thing except the cover credited to Judy is the repeated border on the 8.5" X 11" pages and its signed Morno. The same can be said about the Character Archaic cover art and interior art of Magic-Users, Fighters, etc. all signed Morno, but art work again credited to Brad Schenck? Could Morno be Brad, sort of a tag name? BTW once you get to the Dwarven Glory 2nd print Art Work is credited to Morno. Puzzling!


Just a quick observation on this. Brad Schenck could have done the cartography for the module. DCS III was a TSR artist, but if you look at several modules he did work on, he only did the cartography work. Just a thought. :D


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Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:49 am 
 

First I just want to edit an earlier error on my part. The Character Archaic contact address is in Morro Bay, California. I was working off my memory and an internet search for "Morro". I just want to keep the facts strait.

I have a theory :idea: about the PotVQ printings. It's just a theory based on our research and a little deduction, so feel free to shoot holes in it.

I had all of our Wee Warriors stuff out in front of me, the PotVQ Black-folder, PotVQ 4th and 5th print , DG 2nd, Misty, Vanquished Foe, Dog Tags, etc. So I checked everything to see if it was printed or Xeroxed. All of it was printed, again most likely from paper printing plates.

Hmmm…. so why this Xeroxed bagged version? It just doesn't seem like the people taking the time and money to produce these items would make a run of Xeroxed ones. Especially giving the "printer credit", and notice there's at least to my knowledge no other Xeroxed versions of any Wee Warriors stuff.

So if they didn't make them than who did? It's obvious that the Xeroxed bagged version is copied from one of the Two-Tone printed Black-Folder version. Run one printed page off on an old copier and see what I mean, I did a little test on an older copier machine. The results matched mbassoc's picture and description.

The next thing that's interesting to note is that the PotVQ was being exclusively distributed by TSR, which means they were the only ones selling it, and it's being produced by Pete and Judy Kerestan, which means they were the ones making it i.e. printing it in California. (The Black-Folder version)

Also notice there's no contact address in the PotVQ, so anyone trying to acquire one would have to do so through TSR, hence the exclusive distribution.

So what I'm driving at is TSR Xeroxed them. There are other TSR Xeroxed items, Tsoj, R pre-pubs, and I know TSR had a copier from a 1976 TSR employees handbook we have (10 or so Xeroxed pages). Also the only other module produced in 76 was the Official Dungeon of GenCon IX also Xeroxed.

They must have run out of the Black-Folder version, and just ran some off. Demand most likely was higher than expected, and making copies was just an easy solution. Also think about it; why would Pete and Judy Xerox them? Since the bagged version is copied from a Black-Folder printed page, why would you Xerox them and ship the across the country when TSR could just copy them in Lake Geneva from a house copy the place they were being distributed out of. And since there was no way to copy the folder they just stuck it in a bag like the Tsoj. Bagging was a standard TSR method of housing some of it's games around this era.

The Acaeum quoted 3rd is the only piece of the puzzle left in my mind. From the looks of afoolandhis$'s photo of the cover it appears to be printed (Please Check), so did the Wee Warriors gang print covers and send them to TSR, or like I earlier theorized that someone at TSR redid the cover. I'd bet if it's printed then Wee warriors printed them and shipped the covers to TSR. Most likely the original Cover Art the Black-Folder foil-stamp is derived from that Judy is credited for.

WARNING!

There is one Dark Side to this discovery. The vulnerability to forgery; anyone with a Black-Folder version and access to an older copier could easily reproduce a bagged version. You're only saving grace would be if you had an Acaeum quoted 3rd and the cover is truly printed. If you have a Xeroxed version now I'd bet it's real, but if the Acaeum PotVQ printing-order and description gets amended, I'd be leery in the future. There definitely going to be vulnerable to forgery. And a hot ticket item like the First Module printed, as our collecting field grows, so will the demand for this landmark D&D collectable.

Well that's it please throw some feedback at this, I'd love to hear some opinions.


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Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 8:56 am 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote:There is one Dark Side to this discovery. The vulnerability to forgery; anyone with a Black-Folder version and access to an older copier could easily reproduce a bagged version. You're only saving grace would be if you had an Acaeum quoted 3rd and the cover is truly printed. If you have a Xeroxed version now I'd bet it's real, but if the Acaeum PotVQ printing-order and description gets amended, I'd be leery in the future. There definitely going to be vulnerable to forgery. And a hot ticket item like the First Module printed, as our collecting field grows, so will the demand for this landmark D&D collectable.

Well that's it please throw some feedback at this, I'd love to hear some opinions.

With you 100% on that, Mike.

Was definitely keen to pick up what appeared to be a "sealed" 3rd print from someone who didn't have a clue about it for that reason...
Bella's was well worth going after in that context, even if only 85% certain without closer inspection.

The recent UK 3rd print also has a very good pedigree (and would also have been an easier one to check for duplication method, since it wasn't sealed), but I certainly wouldn't pick one up from any-old-place.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:27 pm 
 

invincibleoverlord wrote: So what I'm driving at is TSR Xeroxed them. ..
They must have run out of the Black-Folder version, and just ran some off. Demand most likely was higher than expected, and making copies was just an easy solution. Also think about it; why would Pete and Judy Xerox them? Since the bagged version is copied from a Black-Folder printed page, why would you Xerox them and ship the across the country when TSR could just copy them in Lake Geneva from a house copy the place they were being distributed out of. And since there was no way to copy the folder they just stuck it in a bag like the Tsoj. Bagging was a standard TSR method of housing some of it's games around this era.


Sounds reasonable to me.  I think you're on to something there.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:56 pm 
 

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? And could someone please PM me with Gygax's e-mail.


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