Palace of the Vampire Queen print sequence
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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 12:10 pm 
 

Howdy All,


Here are the two versions I'm talking about

Black Folder (24 sheets all white; offset printing w/ grid, no streaks):

01 Black Folder
01 Title page/use sheet, single-sided
01 Background sheet, single-sided
10 Map sheets, single-sided
10 Dungeon key sheets, single-sided
01 Copyright sheet, single-sided w/ single strip of glue along top of page


Yellow Cover Sheet Version (17 sheets; offset printing w/ grid, no streaks):

01 Title page/Copyright sheet, yellow, double-sided
01 Background/Use sheet, white, double-sided
10 Map sheets, white, single-sided
05 Dungeon key sheets, white, double-sided

The last is NOT the yellow-cover-tower version.


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Paul


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 12:21 pm 
 

The 'splotchy' aspect to the grey grid that you mentioned may be the result of dirty plates at the end of the print run, and this would support the theory that the ziploc bags were used once the batch of black folders had been used up.


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:52 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
afoolandhis$ wrote:My other one is a black-foldered version, no yellow sheets.

This is the one I'm interested in. I had always assumed, maybe wrongly, that the scrollwork would have appeared on the Title/Background sheet as it does in the unfoldered version.


I'll see if I can get some info from Rick Bauer on where/when he got it.

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:08 pm 
 

*is still watching*

(Apologies; got diverted researching the 6th & 7th print OD&D sets ;))

Still more than a few questions here.
(Not at all certain as to whether that Zocchi copy had to come via TSR and worried as to whether there's any further knock-on with regards other copies that may have "original" pages plus photocopies; e.g. that they may have overprinted/underprinted the map pages for technical reasons or otherwise, per the other contributor's black folder version as noted by Scott).

Will hold back on these crimp marks, then, in case we need another cross-check indicator... :?

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:14 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:I'll see if I can get some info from Rick Bauer on where/when he got it.

I'm still betting on that GenCon auction, as listed. :)
(Would be good, if so!).

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:17 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
afoolandhis$ wrote:I'll see if I can get some info from Rick Bauer on where/when he got it.

I'm still betting on that GenCon auction, as listed. :)
(Would be good, if so!).


Well, I certainly hope your instincts are right, David, as they often are.   :D

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:28 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:Well, I certainly hope your instincts are right, David, as they often are. :D

Yeah, would be a very good pedigree to have, if so! 8)
(And, of course, one less "competitor"... *jk* :o).

Was really just going by the date and that opening price, however.



===

Kinda wish I wasn't right about the 6th/7th (presumed) OCE, though, but there are multiple content differences- not just the covers.
Scott's gonna kill me! :P

Wish I could tie that in with Sotteraneo's "missing $10.00"/"missing starburst" set, but the colors ain't right. :(

Heck, could be 10th/11th printing, by the time we've all thrown our OD&D copies into the listing...
I'm not counting the other variants/different cover printings for now; and Deimos's "5th" looks more like a full printing than a variant, even though it could've been a test print (*waves hiya*)

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:30 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Wish I could tie that in with Sotteraneo's "missing $10.00"/"missing starburst" set, but the colors ain't right. :(


Yeah, this one is intriguing, to say the least.  You mean the colors of the covers, right?

  


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Post Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:54 pm 
 

afoolandhis$ wrote:
harami2000 wrote:Wish I could tie that in with Sotteraneo's "missing $10.00"/"missing starburst" set, but the colors ain't right. :(


Yeah, this one is intriguing, to say the least. You mean the colors of the covers, right?

Apologies y'all; I'd better not clog this thread! My mind's already doing loops over the PotVQ "issues" without any additional digression from myself. :)
Presume I'm not the only one getting a headache trying to figure this out!

=
Have put a temporary post over here re. the OD&D sets, Stephen;
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Post Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:43 am 
 

Update,

I've been in contact with Lou Zocchi, and he said that the Yellow-Covered-Copied-Version with his name and address was sold during his days of selling used and rare RPG's. He had nothing to do with its publication or real distribution. He was nice and also took it a step further by contacting Bill Jaffe who assisted Lou in selling collector sales at the time, and according to his recollection remembers the Folder-Version as being the first print.

Still nothing truly solidifying here, :roll:

So after Brad finishes moving, he's going to help me try to get a hold of Pete Kerestan himself. If he can't sum it up... no one can.


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:20 pm 
 

** I changed the subject line of this thread to more clearly identify what's going on here **

Alrighty. I sat down and waded through this thread again, and promptly gave myself a headache. The new sequence, as best as I could determine:
    First. Black folder. Offset printed with gray grid on maps. The "quality" print, printed in El Segundo, CA at Judy's cousin Jerry Wellfonder's print shop. Either 18 or 24 total pages (some copies have double-sided pages, others have single-sided). TSR (who was the distributor) was replicating occasional missing pages of this print on their in-house photocopier; these replacement pages will show copier streaking on the lower right corner of the page.

    Second. Bagged Yellow-Covered (no artwork) version. Offset printed with gray grid on maps. This offset printing, however, is of slightly lower quality than the First print's; under magnification, the halftone dots that comprise the gray grid on the maps can be seen as splotchy and/or not uniform in size. Our theory here is that the Second print copies were run off the same (but now dirty) printing plates as the First print. However, due to cost reasons, a black folder was not produced for this print run. Either 17 or 24 total pages (some copies have double-sided pages, others have single-sided). We have not spotted any TSR-photocopied replacement pages in this print.

    Third. Bagged Yellow-Covered (with artwork of a tower) version. Photocopied, with black, jagged grid inside the rooms. Produced at an unknown print shop in CA. Due to printing costs, this third printing featured a yellow-paper cover (with artwork) instead of the expensive foil-stamped black folders they were getting for a big discount at Jerry's shop. Many copies of this print were distributed by Lou Zocchi, and some feature his sticker on the copyright page. 13, double-sided pages.

    Fourth. Bagged Yellow-Covered (with artwork of a tower) version. Photocopied, with no gray grid inside the rooms. The "Bella PotVQ". Appears to also have been photocopied, but the copier was set too light to pick up the gray grid at all.  Unknown where this was done, but due to the age of the bag and other indicators, was probably done in the 1970's as opposed to recently. 13, double-sided pages.
Further comments welcome. Please let me know if anyone has a copy that does *not* fit into one of these prints.

Hopefully you'll hear back from Kerestan/Morno on this, IO, so we can get some further insight....

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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:44 pm 
 

The descriptions appear to be clear and consise and accurately differentiate between the versions that have been presented.

However, it would be foolish to differentiate between First Black Folder and First Ziplock, not least because the evidence is sketchy and in all probability we're actually looking at bagged overstock and not a second print run.

I must stress that I have no vested interest in the value of these printings as I do not own a PoVQ.

Secondly, as regards the ziplock with cover art, there appears to be no evidence as to which order they were printed in.

In all reality, you should probably be listing these as follows.....

First Print with Black Folder
First Print in Ziplock
Second Print with Grid
Second Print without Grid


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Post Posted: Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:14 pm 
 

My reasoning on separating the black folder & non-foldered versions was because of the offset quality.  Under a microscope, I noticed the same thing that Paul did with his copy, i.e. that the printing was lower quality, with some splotchiness to the dots.  Ergo, it *was* a separate printing, assuming that *all* of the black-foldered copies have crisp halftone dots under magnification (at least Paul's copy does; the only one that's been checked).

Since the theory is that the same printing plate was used, but now it's dirty (accounting for the splotchiness of the dots), then it follows that the unfoldered version came second.

Both prints were certainly run off in close proximity.  For valuation purposes, the black folder version should command a higher price, simply by virtue of the presence of this expensive black folder (not necessarily because it was printed first or second, which indeed, we can't say for certain --though odds are very good the black folder version was printed first.

As to the Third/Fourth print, the case is less certain.  We have no idea which was photocopied first.  As such, it's a lot easier to do as you suggest, make both versions of the Third print, with and without the grid.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:24 am 
 

FoulFoot wrote:Since the theory is that the same printing plate was used, but now it's dirty (accounting for the splotchiness of the dots), then it follows that the unfoldered version came second.

I do not dispute the reasoning or deduction, and I am sure that the market willl demand a higher price for the black foldered version.

What I question is that the print history is being stipulated based on a comparative study of two single products and not a range of products. We are saying that this one was a second printing because it is printed worse than this one, and we have no way of knowing if the quality of the print varies across the black foldered versions or the ziplocked versions.

Under this premiss, if you compare two black foldered versions and one has slight degradation in the halftone, it is ziplock second print that has found itself in a black folder, a fake first print. And if you find a ziplock version with clear and clean halftone, it becomes a folderless first print.

It is dangerous to use the halftone alone to determine the print order of two products that may well have come off the same print run (beginning and end), and we may well find under this hypothesis that some owners of black foldered PoVQs turn out to have fakes firsts (second prints in folders).

The evidence base is very small.


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:52 am 
 

Agreed, it is.  I encourage everyone who has a copy of the folder / folderless version to get a magnifying glass (or a microscope) and take a look at the halftone grid.  At the moment, we're working with a sample of only three elements.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 3:58 am 
 

FoulFoot wrote:Agreed, it is. I encourage everyone who has a copy of the folder / folderless version to get a magnifying glass (or a microscope) and take a look at the halftone grid. At the moment, we're working with a sample of only three elements.

Foul


awww feck this means opening mine again :(

i will do it later and scan some of the map pages. i have the yellow cover with the no tower pic on the front - ian knows the one.

Al



  


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Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:33 am 
 

FoulFoot wrote:** I changed the subject line of this thread to more clearly identify what's going on here **

Alrighty. I sat down and waded through this thread again, and promptly gave myself a headache. The new sequence, as best as I could determine:
    First. Black folder. Offset printed with gray grid on maps. The "quality" print, printed in El Segundo, CA at Judy's cousin Jerry Wellfonder's print shop. Either 18 or 24 total pages (some copies have double-sided pages, others have single-sided). TSR (who was the distributor) was replicating occasional missing pages of this print on their in-house photocopier; these replacement pages will show copier streaking on the lower right corner of the page.

    Second. Bagged Yellow-Covered (no artwork) version. Offset printed with gray grid on maps. This offset printing, however, is of slightly lower quality than the First print's; under magnification, the halftone dots that comprise the gray grid on the maps can be seen as splotchy and/or not uniform in size. Our theory here is that the Second print copies were run off the same (but now dirty) printing plates as the First print. However, due to cost reasons, a black folder was not produced for this print run. Either 17 or 24 total pages (some copies have double-sided pages, others have single-sided). We have not spotted any TSR-photocopied replacement pages in this print.

    Third. Bagged Yellow-Covered (with artwork of a tower) version. Photocopied, with black, jagged grid inside the rooms. Produced at an unknown print shop in CA. Due to printing costs, this third printing featured a yellow-paper cover (with artwork) instead of the expensive foil-stamped black folders they were getting for a big discount at Jerry's shop. Many copies of this print were distributed by Lou Zocchi, and some feature his sticker on the copyright page. 13, double-sided pages.

    Fourth. Bagged Yellow-Covered (with artwork of a tower) version. Photocopied, with no gray grid inside the rooms. The "Bella PotVQ". Appears to also have been photocopied, but the copier was set too light to pick up the gray grid at all. Unknown where this was done, but due to the age of the bag and other indicators, was probably done in the 1970's as opposed to recently. 13, double-sided pages.
Further comments welcome. Please let me know if anyone has a copy that does *not* fit into one of these prints.

Hopefully you'll hear back from Kerestan/Morno on this, IO, so we can get some further insight....

Foul


Thanks for this, its very helpful. My copy ebay item 5176120768 fits this
third category - it has grid lines on the maps. The grid lines are fairly
clear and consistent on most of the map pages, with the exception of
the players map for level 5 where the grid lines appear fainter.

Note that the seller here bought the item new in the UK in the 1970's.
I'd be interested to know if all these versions were available new in both the US and UK, or just the former.

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Post Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 7:49 am 
 

mud2guard wrote:Thanks for this, its very helpful. My copy ebay item 5176120768 fits this
third category - it has grid lines on the maps. The grid lines are fairly
clear and consistent on most of the map pages, with the exception of
the players map for level 5 where the grid lines appear fainter.

Note that the seller here bought the item new in the UK in the 1970's.
I'd be interested to know if all these versions were available new in both the US and UK, or just the former.

This also occurred to me. If we have two types of the ziplock yellow with cover art, maybe TSR(USA) copied theirs and distributed throughout the US and TSR(UK) photocopied theirs and distributed in the UK. Just a thought.


<edit>

OK. TSR(UK) didn't exist back then. I'm talking out of my arse. But presumably there was a UK distributor (Games Workshop?) and it seems odd to decide you're gonn print one edition by photocopying from and earlier copy, and then still decide to ship half way across the world. More than one copy shop would account for more than one printing just as well.


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Post Posted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:46 pm 
 

*adds links re. missing map in black folder copies for reference, just in case*

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Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:12 am 
 

This is probably an insulting, stupid question, but...any chance that those of you more fortunate than I could post pictures of all of the PoVQ pages? I want to run it! Perhaps someone has already asked this or perhaps they're already posted somewhere on this site and I've yet to find them (I'm starting to nod off at this point) or perhaps they're all just too delicate to scan and you'll all just scoff at me, but...I really want to run it! I'd even be willing to pay for it, if that's legal or even if it's not legal and you don't care because, well...you know: I really want to run it! I'll stop at nothing for my D&D needs!



If not, one of these days I'll procure a copy of my very own *sigh* (when one comes available and my mortgage isn't due!) and I'll be sure to scan the pages (if that doesn't damage the item) or at least type up the text (obviously I won't be purchasing a bagged copy), like I do for every module I run and make it all available here, if there's interest.



Edit: didn't realize my subject line wouldn't show up in a reply (if I've got that right).


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