Shrink is NOT a condition
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Post Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:47 am 
 

These two items have not appeared in shrink in a couple of years and I can understand the reason for selling them but unless I'm way off base with their condition based on the photos and descriptions, these books should be pulped. I couldn't imagine putting them anywhere near other collectables and the possible health implications are just too great.  Hoping I'm wrong about them.


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Post Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 9:53 am 
 

w.r.t. GAZ3 that copy doesnt look too bad right?

The comment about being climate controlled and maybe the module looks a bit 'fat' with moisture you mean?

  

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Post Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 10:05 am 
 

I think the problem is that they look like they were once submerged in water (or stored in a very moist environment) and have then been moved to a cold storage facility or unheated garage, and now the moisture has been allowed to thaw out. Only the owner knows how and where these got like that.
This reminds me of the three water damaged ST1's, that looked like they were smuggled out of a warzone, that came up for sale a little while ago.
The back covers of both show clear signs of water ingress. You'll be hard pressed to get VGC out of those, but it'd be interesting to see just how bad they are once they are unsealed and allowed to dry out. Probably the worst example of 'brand new in original shrinkwrap' I have ever seen.
This is a clear example of why shrinkwrap is not a condition. The shrinkwrap is being used to conceal the true condition of the product being sold, and the seller is aluding to the fact that they have been stored badly, but not being open or describing the actual condition of the product, no doubt hiding behind brevity, or pleading ignorance as to the importance of telling prospective buyers such things.
Caveat Emptor. The buyer gets what he deserves. If they go for $5 a pop then maybe they are good play copies. If they go for $50 a shot then maybe some buyers are learning valuable lessons in life. It'll be interesting to see if anyone opens one of these up.


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:05 am 
 

Ok that makes sense thanks.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 9:16 am 
 

Sir Kill Alot wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:these books should be pulped.

-SKA


Lord, please continue to focus this desire of perfection on vintage DnD items. Do not let if grow, or transfer, to anything else in your creation. Amen.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 10:43 am 
 

shadeun wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:w.r.t. GAZ3 that copy doesnt look too bad right?

The comment about being climate controlled and maybe the module looks a bit 'fat' with moisture you mean?


This picture says everything.
Attachment:
GAZ3 mold (1).jpg


Mold will form on a viable surface within 24 to 48 hours of coming into contact with moisture and mold loves nothing more than paper.  The book itself acts like a sponge, pulling water vapor out of the air so low humidity environments are very important to a book's health. The spotting you see on the edges and haze on the cellophane are clear indicators of mold.  The swelling of the book means it has absorbed a ton of moisture and spore colonies have more than likely penetrated deep into the pages.  No amount of 'airing out' will reverse these effects.  I made the comment they should be destroyed because quite frankly its a health hazard.  I see more people bidding on these items and can only shake my head.  I only hope they handle them wearing an N95 mask and gloves when the are received.

-SKA

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:27 am 
 

Mold-mold is bad-bad. I thought the dark line was wear and a map or something.

I thought we were dealing with one of those books I see on Pawn Stars with foxing and worm holes suggesting we throw it out. :)

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:22 pm 
 

They are doing well.
Someone is going to be pleased.  :D


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Post Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:10 pm 
 

Sir Kill Alot wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:


Only to the trained eye!

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:44 am 
 

Sir Kill Alot wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:
This picture says everything.
Attachment:
GAZ3 mold (1).jpg


Mold will form on a viable surface within 24 to 48 hours of coming into contact with moisture and mold loves nothing more than paper.  The book itself acts like a sponge, pulling water vapor out of the air so low humidity environments are very important to a book's health. The spotting you see on the edges and haze on the cellophane are clear indicators of mold.  The swelling of the book means it has absorbed a ton of moisture and spore colonies have more than likely penetrated deep into the pages.  No amount of 'airing out' will reverse these effects.  I made the comment they should be destroyed because quite frankly its a health hazard.  I see more people bidding on these items and can only shake my head.  I only hope they handle them wearing an N95 mask and gloves when the are received.

-SKA


Let's fact check this.

1. The shrinkwrap is clearly open else I would think it would protect from humidity, no? So to start we may need to correct the saying "Shrinkwrap is not a condition" to "Open shrinkwrap hides the condition" which seems more accurate. As a hiker I know bears can smell food through regular shrinkwrap, but I haven't yet heard that moisture can infiltrate it even over time. Feel free to fact-check me in return on that as I didnt research it deeply, but I have never seen or heard of moisture go through airtight SW. I googled this a bit and am still looking for a scientific paper on the durability of shrinkwrap from the 70s and 80s, but I found several pages saying sealed SW completely keeps moisture out. However it also keeps moisture in if there was some in the item to start with - but based on the quality I saw of old modules in sealed SW I don't think that's an issue for the case at hand.

2. Libraries deal with moldy old books a lot. There are treatments. They can also be kept in airtight containers.
Its a little long and convoluted but see https://inspectapedia.com/mold/Moldy_Book_Cleaning.php

3. On the health effects of mold, it mostly affects children and people with a specific sensitivity to it. See How Much Mold Exposure Is Harmful?
Most of us live with mold surrounding us. Forests are full of mold spores. Even black mold apparently has not conclusively been linked to the health effects we hear people fear-mongering about. Not to say I would live with it, but I think it is important to rely on science when discussing this rather than suggest we destroy books, an idea that has some bad associations ;)

Just trying to get to the bottom of it, as it is a topic often brought up by collectors, but I read lots of emphatic opinions on it and a lot less facts grounded in science. It seems at times that there is some inflation in stated positions in this forum (like most), for dramatic and authority-establishing purposes. I am sure I can be educated on this topic further though, as long as one anchors it in some science rather than anecdotal observations. And yes I fully realize that I sound as pedantic as a high elf on this one :)

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:26 pm 
 

This collection has been stored in a house that has been vacant for just over 10 years. Some extended family purchased it last year and is finally cleaning it out. Due to the amount of dust and “stale” air the house has an odor to it. Not a moldy odor, but a stale air odor. Some of the products were stored downstairs so they had a slight smell, but they were far from being “submurged” or even wet from moisture. And the book is not swelling either, there are maps inside that push out the pages.  Whenever I list something, I describe it the best I can. These gazetteer modules you guys are referencing were stored upstairs. They were covered in dust and I did my best to clean them off. But they still have that “stale” air smell. That could be aired out with a fan blowing air on the lowest setting.

If something was sumurged in water or covered in mold, I would never list it.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:56 pm 
 

gregory wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:1. The shrinkwrap is clearly open else I would think it would protect from humidity, no? So to start we may need to correct the saying "Shrinkwrap is not a condition" to "Open shrinkwrap hides the condition" which seems more accurate. As a hiker I know bears can smell food through regular shrinkwrap, but I haven't yet heard that moisture can infiltrate it even over time. Feel free to fact-check me in return on that as I didnt research it deeply, but I have never seen or heard of moisture go through airtight SW. I googled this a bit and am still looking for a scientific paper on the durability of shrinkwrap from the 70s and 80s, but I found several pages saying sealed SW completely keeps moisture out. However it also keeps moisture in if there was some in the item to start with - but based on the quality I saw of old modules in sealed SW I don't think that's an issue for the case at hand.


Google may ofttimes be your friend, but the search function of the Acaeum is a new pal just waiting to shake your hand. In particular, this link:

Modules - spine creases under shrink wrap.

Sir Kill Alot wrote in Modules - spine creases under shrink wrap.: Like Deadlord mentioned above, breathing holes should be present.  They tend to be spaced evenly and show up on both sides of the item.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 2:33 pm 
 

clay.74 wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:This collection has been stored in a house that has been vacant for just over 10 years. Some extended family purchased it last year and is finally cleaning it out. Due to the amount of dust and “stale” air the house has an odor to it. Not a moldy odor, but a stale air odor. Some of the products were stored downstairs so they had a slight smell, but they were far from being “submurged” or even wet from moisture. And the book is not swelling either, there are maps inside that push out the pages.  Whenever I list something, I describe it the best I can. These gazetteer modules you guys are referencing were stored upstairs. They were covered in dust and I did my best to clean them off. But they still have that “stale” air smell. That could be aired out with a fan blowing air on the lowest setting.

If something was sumurged in water or covered in mold, I would never list it.


Clay, you are an extremely reputable seller and I never called that into question.  I said I hope I am wrong about the items but the pictures tell a different story.  A house with little to no climate control is just a bigger shed.  The humidity swings between the seasons and rainy days get trapped in a house with no ventilation.  You explained the items with detail and posted plenty of pictures.  I'm just warning people that those items should be avoided.  My grandfather owned a book store that catered to older books. His store specialized in early fiction from the early 1900s and later and I have seen countless examples of books gone bad.   I don't have the modules in front of me but those images don't depict dust.  Spotting and spiderlike features with hazing on the covers are tell tale signs.

Here is another example of a book with moldy edging.

Attachment:
moldy book edge.jpg


With anything it's buyer beware.  I'm just applying life experience to what I'm seeing.  Nothing more.

-SKA

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:41 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:
Google may ofttimes be your friend, but the search function of the Acaeum is a new pal just waiting to shake your hand. In particular, this link:

Modules - spine creases under shrink wrap.



Oh interesting indeed - thanks for sharing this. It is true, I remember now seeing a breathing hole in some SW, and should have remembered that. Any thread proving that mold cannot be cured or at least contained, too? That's not what some authoritative websites and apparently some librarians too are saying.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 22, 2023 7:00 pm 
 

gregory wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:Any thread proving that mold cannot be cured or at least contained, too? That's not what some authoritative websites and apparently some librarians too are saying.


According to the MM, brown mold can only be affected by magical cold, such as white dragon breath. Yellow mold is affected by fire, so is easiest to deal with if you don't have magical resources.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:00 am 
 

sauromatian wrote in Shrink is NOT a condition:
According to the MM, brown mold can only be affected by magical cold, such as white dragon breath. Yellow mold is affected by fire, so is easiest to deal with if you don't have magical resources.


Here you go. You're finally referring to some trustworthy sources of information to support your attacks on new vendors. That's progress! :)

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:53 pm 
 

As a shrink collector, I'd rather have this copy than an open NM copy. I've had great results with using baking soda to remove orders and gently cleaning the shrink without damaging it to brighten the appearance.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2023 1:23 am 
 

I decided to take a photo of the same area of the book, but in different lighting as sometimes my iPhone, which I use for Ebay pictures can be off with the white balance. I believe what you are seeing in the photo is the light shining through the plastic, and it is creating a white haze (which you guys thought may be mold / mildew). Heres a better photo to more accurately show the module. I will try to work on this in the future to prevent any confusion.

You can see that it is clean. And not moldy.

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