PDFs to use, books to collect
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 3:50 pm 
 

I'm starting up my collection; stole off the net or in a couple cases actually paid for (relatively bad) scans off RPGNOW.com for the OD&D manuals, printed 'em out and punched 'em and stuck 'em in a binder with a nice print of the box top from this here site. Worked great, will make a perfect, useable (and replaceable if I spill something on it, etc) tool.  Now I just have to wait on my purchase to go through with a guy who's tossing a 6th printing of the OD&D boxed set, complete with supplements, and I'll be golden.

But my question is, what about the rest of the out of print stuff? I'm working up the old hardcovers in as early printings as I can afford, but I would like .PDFs of the books for personal use in exactly the same manner as I described above. Surely there's folks out there who'd be willing to give this away for free. For some reason, paying 4.95 to download a 1st edition PHB makes me turn up my nose... once I actually reacquire the item, I suppose I could scan it myself, but why go to all the work if nice usable files already exist in circulation? Looking for pointers, any info appreciated.

Edit: Ok, this is not a troll, heh, and I'm not trying to be flamed into next week for violating copyrights. It is, in my mind, a fair and legitimate request for information.

Edit 2: to first paragraph, added last sentence.

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:33 pm 
 

I make my own PDFs of everything I buy. Believe me, it takes a lot longer in time than could ever be paid for with $5. I see no reason why anyone shouldn't pay $5 for a PDF copy of a module or book. With I12 for example, you can buy a scan for $5 or a real copy for $40, the same could be said for Jade Hare, A1-4, T1-4, S1-4.......

If the PDF is available through a legit' site, go buy it. Don't screw the copyright holder.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:41 pm 
 

Now from what you just said about I12, if $5 PDF's are available, does that not hurt the value of the original?
The whole debate about PDf sellers hurting the market was just summed up by you, mbassoc2003. It's not the high-end items that suffer, it is the low-midrange ones.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:51 pm 
 

As a note too, and I am by no means an attorney, but I am pretty sure that according to US copyright laws, that although it is legal for you to make a pdf/copy for your own private use, that if/when you sell or get rid of the actual item that you have copied, that legally, you are required to destroy the copy of the item(s) that you have made. Otherwise you be infringing upon the copyright of the item. Now granted it would be almost impossible to track that sort of thing, particularly in written format, I believe that is how the law reads.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:54 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:Now from what you just said about I12, if $5 PDF's are available, does that not hurt the value of the original?
The whole debate about PDf sellers hurting the market was just summed up by you, mbassoc2003. It's not the high-end items that suffer, it is the low-midrange ones.


Maybe I wasn't too clear... What Beermoter is saying is he doesn't want to pay $5 for a PDF to use while he's waiting for his collectors item to arrive, or to print from as opposed to photocopying the module/manual. So could someone give him them for free?

What I'm saying is $5 is far better than making your own PDF, and it doesn't ruin the spine of your minty I12 that you forked out $40 for on eBay.

If people are going to collect the books, they're going to bid against eachother and push up the prices. We all know that there are high seasons and low seasons on eBay, and I'm sure we all buy and sell to maximize our position.

I just don't agree with freely distributing a PDF that you can buy from SVGames for $5. That's less than I pint of beer in Edinburgh.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:39 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:As a note too, and I am by no means an attorney, but I am pretty sure that according to US copyright laws, that although it is legal for you to make a pdf/copy for your own private use, that if/when you sell or get rid of the actual item that you have copied, that legally, you are required to destroy the copy of the item(s) that you have made. Otherwise you be infringing upon the copyright of the item.

Correct. At best...
And that's using interpretation of existing legislation to the absolute maximum.

Nowhere in "fair use" provisions are you permitted to make a copy of an entire work, even if you own the original.
But it has "almost" become accepted that you can have a .mp3 copy of a track from an LP you own, in order to play in the car, without having to purchase the item again.
This interpretation is now also being applied to other forms of original media.

However, retaining ownership of the electronic copy after having sold the analog original clearly steps beyond that line and violates the rights of the copyright owner.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:57 pm 
 

I don't know if that is true under Scottish Law. I know that I am permitted under Scottish Law to own pirate software on CD, even if I do not own, nor have ever owned the original. I am not permitted to distribute that software however, nor am I permitted to use it. But under Scottish Law ownership of pirate software is not a crime.

I haven't looked into how far that extends to other copyrighted materials, and I know that under English Law ownership of pirate software is illegal. The loophole in the law in Scotland makes it very hard to prosecute software pirates. Software pirates (and this includes DVD films and mp3s) set up and run shops in major cities. I live outside Edinburgh and I can buy practically any piece of software I could ever wish for.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:07 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote: nor am I permitted to use it.


I am not trying to be a smart a$$, but if you can't use it by law then what is the purpose of having it in the first place? :? I mean as I stated previously it would be almost impossible for anyone of importance to find out, but still....


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 7:26 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote: nor am I permitted to use it.


I am not trying to be a smart a$$, but if you can't use it by law then what is the purpose of having it in the first place? :? I mean as I stated previously it would be almost impossible for anyone of importance to find out, but still....


That's the point. :D We have loads of sellers of pirate software who can't be prosecuted for owning their stock. They can only ever be prosecuted for selling a single CD to a customs/police official.

It's kinda like making it illegal to use or sell drugs, but not illegal to own them. If you're a seller you could only ever be prosecuted for selling a single fix, and as ownership is not a crime, there is no such thing as intent to supply.

Strange, but true. :?:

Edit.... And with regard to use. I do not believe the Police in the UK have the power to search or cease computers which are believed to be operating with pirate software. I believe they are permitted to ask for access to your PC, but cannot enforce it if you refuse. That goes for businesses in the UK too.

Pretty loose laws all round. :D :( :?:


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:28 pm 
 

I'm one of those that would have been more than happy to pay $5 per scan if the scans had been professional quality - like the ones they offer for free on the WOTC website. Someone explain to me why they can do excellent scans that they give away for free, but have the worst scans I have ever seen for a charge?!

Since I refuse to download the pdfs illegally (many of the illegal, homemade scans are far superior in quality from what I hear), that leaves me high and dry. I've bought several pdfs from RPGNOW, and they were passable to unreadable. Total garbage, always having to wonder if this scan is going to be readable...

It would be great to have pdfs available for $5, but not at this quality.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:57 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:As a note too, and I am by no means an attorney, but I am pretty sure that according to US copyright laws, that although it is legal for you to make a pdf/copy for your own private use, that if/when you sell or get rid of the actual item that you have copied, that legally, you are required to destroy the copy of the item(s) that you have made. Otherwise you be infringing upon the copyright of the item. Now granted it would be almost impossible to track that sort of thing, particularly in written format, I believe that is how the law reads.



Well, sure.  And you know, the reason I posted this was because of what outskirtsofinfiniti said just above - I sure would rather have a GOOD .pdf scan of a book, rather than paying 5 bucks for a rather fuzzy one.  You know I stole some .PDFs of the original books off the net and they are small files, very clear and completely readable/usable.  The scans I got from RPGNOW = not nearly as good, much larger filesizes, fuzzy, full color, blah blah.  

I would rather paypal someone from the collector community a couple bucks to give me some good quality scans - I mean hell, once I get my books, I'll be happy to take pictures of my smiling hobbit face with the book to prove that yes, I do own it - rather than a company that is just cashing in on the fact that you cannot preview the thing before you buy it from them.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:08 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:It's kinda like making it illegal to use or sell drugs, but not illegal to own them. If you're a seller you could only ever be prosecuted for selling a single fix, and as ownership is not a crime, there is no such thing as intent to supply.

Not really that strange.  We are trying to implement something similar in Canada for pot.   :wink:

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:52 am 
 

Regardless of the ability or motivation for local law to prosecute for infringement of INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY PROTECTION LAWS AND TREATIES, it is still illegal.

I live right next to FRY's and can buy any software I want, legally.  I can also go to a freinds house and copy his, illegally.

With regard to books on PDF, I find it hard to believe that we are really talking about the window of time in which you claim to have bought a book and the time it arrives that you are complaining about having to pay $5 for.

Scotland is covered under UK laws of International Intellectual property and copyright laws, as well as those laws imposed by the European Union.

Just because a majority in Edinburg choose to ignore those LAW's, they are still criminal's in the intent to circumvent International treaties and the laws of the UK.

Perhaps this explains why there aren't many Scotish scholars and programmers?  HEHE, just kidding :).

  


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 11:55 am 
 

>>I know that I am permitted under Scottish Law to own pirate software on CD, even if I do not own, nor have ever owned the original.<<

Can you point to evidence of this?  I find it hard to believe.  Ignorance of the law is no excuse :).

  

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:21 pm 
 

patweb wrote:>>I know that I am permitted under Scottish Law to own pirate software on CD, even if I do not own, nor have ever owned the original.<<

Can you point to evidence of this? I find it hard to believe. Ignorance of the law is no excuse :).


I imagine that you will find what you need to see here ----> http://www.scottishlaw.org.uk/index.html

:)



  

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 12:38 pm 
 

patweb wrote:Regardless of the ability or motivation for local law to prosecute for infringement of INTERNATIONAL COPYRIGHT AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY PROTECTION LAWS AND TREATIES, it is still illegal.

I live right next to FRY's and can buy any software I want, legally. I can also go to a freinds house and copy his, illegally.

With regard to books on PDF, I find it hard to believe that we are really talking about the window of time in which you claim to have bought a book and the time it arrives that you are complaining about having to pay $5 for.

Scotland is covered under UK laws of International Intellectual property and copyright laws, as well as those laws imposed by the European Union.

Just because a majority in Edinburg choose to ignore those LAW's, they are still criminal's in the intent to circumvent International treaties and the laws of the UK.

Perhaps this explains why there aren't many Scotish scholars and programmers? HEHE, just kidding :).


I'm not saying that I condone software piracy. I have a single PC that I rely on to run my business. I cannot afford downtime or a PC crash, so I don't load crap onto it. I don't put games onto it either. The software I do use I have bought, some £2.5K of it.


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Post Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 6:28 pm 
 

Instead of starting a new thread, I thought it best to revive an existing one.

For those of you who get withdrawl symptoms when you're at work or out of town on business, here is one of the reasons why I support PDFs.

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Post Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 7:23 pm 
 

As a collector I see nothing wrong with "anteing up" the money for the books and then PDF'ing them, (and archiving them on DVD-ROM's) and turning around and selling the item, even if it is illegal. I'm/you're/we're supporting the hobby by buying the books in the first place.

It's when you go and PDF a book that you bought and then share it with others that I have a problem with. If you need a PDF please do it yourself or have someone do it for you from your books, or buy only authorized PDF's please.

Before I found this site, I cruised the net looking for and actively downloading all the D&D PDF's I could find. Am I going to destroy my PDF's because I don't own hard copies of some of the files I downloaded?

NO.

Simply because it is my intention to eventually own a hard copy of everything that was printed or will be printed for D&D by TSR/WOTC/Hasbro. And I also don't share my D&D files.

BTW - most of the files I downloaded were good copies. Some were really good. Some were crappy but readable. Some were downright craptacular. All were free. However, since I found The Acaeum, I have stopped Downloading and started PDF'ing my own stuff (higher quality and larger file sizes).


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Post Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 8:04 pm 
 

Instead of worrying about the legality of copying or buying PDF's, why not do the DECENT thing and find out who has the rights and ask their permission. I'm willing to bet that most of them would have no problems with you copying for your own use so that you wouldn't have to use an original, collectible item.
     If they want to sell you a PDF of the item instead, then buy it. Like any artist, these people put their blood, sweat, and tears into creating this stuff and they deserve that courtesy. You also might consider getting one in a non-collectible condition for personal use.
     Now before anyone starts to beat me up about the scans of The Wizard that I posted, remember what I said at the time. This was the newsletter given to the members of The Dragon Seekers and was not for resale. It was for everyone to enjoy and also to encourage new members. They WANTED people to see it. And it is in that spirit that I posted those scans. I wouldn't want to make ANY money off it. I did it so people could enjoy seeing a unique item from those early days.
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Post Posted: Fri May 06, 2005 11:18 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Instead of starting a new thread, I thought it best to revive an existing one.

For those of you who get withdrawl symptoms when you're at work or out of town on business, here is one of the reasons why I support PDFs.


So Ian, I take it that's NOT the Fez 1 you've got up for sale at the moment?   :P

  
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