Off Topic -- Weird First Ed. rules
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:19 pm 
 

This has nothing to do with collecting except I was looking through my 1st Ed. PHBs and had one of those "wow, never noticed that before" moments...

Pg. 33, paragraph above "ALIGNMENT":

"Note that this does not allow spell use while armor clad, such as an elven fighter/magic user is able to do." (underline added)

My next character is definitely going to be an elven F/MU in full plate :)

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:34 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:This has nothing to do with collecting except I was looking through my 1st Ed. PHBs and had one of those "wow, never noticed that before" moments...

Pg. 33, paragraph above "ALIGNMENT":

"Note that this does not allow spell use while armor clad, such as an elven fighter/magic user is able to do." (underline added)

My next character is definitely going to be an elven F/MU in full plate :)


Damn, now I have to go and check this out....

.....rifling through boxes....

ahhh, interesting...... NICE.....
checking some more....

DOH!! the highest levels he can attain is fighter level 7 / magic user level 11 and then only if he has strenghth of 18 & intelligence of 18. Damn racial class limitations!!! Oh well, guess you can't have everything :wink:


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:40 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:DOH!! the highest levels he can attain is fighter level 7 / magic user level 11 and then only if he has strenghth of 18 & intelligence of 18. Damn racial class limitations!!! Oh well, guess you can't have everything :wink:

I guess that would be the "game balance" then...but I had always assumed they couldn't wear armor at all.   :!:

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:48 pm 
 

I guess that would be the "game balance" then...but I had always assumed they couldn't wear armor at all. :!:


Actually, I didn't know that either. That's why that little tidbit caught my attention so much , and that after reading it, I just had to check it out :D .


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:46 pm 
 

I recently found something interesting on page 30 of deities and demigods in the Celtic mythos under item name of tathlum. It's not necessarily a rule but I thought it was pretty weird.

It is one of those "truth is stranger than fiction instances". I figure it has to be based on some old historical celtic practice.

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 7:55 pm 
 

ifearyeti wrote:I recently found something interesting on page 30 of deities and demigods in the Celtic mythos under item name of tathlum. It's not necessarily a rule but I thought it was pretty weird.

It is one of those "truth is stranger than fiction instances". I figure it has to be based on some old historical celtic practice.


Hey, is that in the Deities & Demigods version with or without Cthulhu? lol. :D


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:16 pm 
 

Don't you remember Fonkin Hoddypeak?  

Elven F/M-U pregenerated character from G1-2-3

Now, this is completely from memory so the answer might be shaky. . . but I believe he wears magical splint mail, has an AC -4 and only 29 HPs (because multi-class HPs completely suck).


Granted he has the second best AC after Frush O'Suggill, but two hits from a giant and he is done.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 6:24 am 
 

Going back to the tathlum. I have a long held interest in mythology, expecially European and Celtic. I have exhausted my library on the matter and can tell you this it's not much, but it's a start.

In the legends of the Danai and the Da Danaans there is a hero/demigod called Lugh (Lug), often considered to be an Anglicised Perseus. At the end of his adventures he returns to Erin (Ireland) carrying with him his magical sword (the sword of light) and a tathlum. This is not well described, but obviously because it is mentioned an important item.

A dictionary/encyclopeadia I have of mythology from 1911 says a tathlum is a magical sling shot, but does not reference this description.

Anyone else have any idea of it's aetiology?

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 10:05 am 
 

Epicrates_cenchria wrote:Going back to the tathlum. I have a long held interest in mythology, expecially European and Celtic. I have exhausted my library on the matter and can tell you this it's not much, but it's a start.

In the legends of the Danai and the Da Danaans there is a hero/demigod called Lugh (Lug), often considered to be an Anglicised Perseus. At the end of his adventures he returns to Erin (Ireland) carrying with him his magical sword (the sword of light) and a tathlum. This is not well described, but obviously because it is mentioned an important item.

A dictionary/encyclopeadia I have of mythology from 1911 says a tathlum is a magical sling shot, but does not reference this description.

Anyone else have any idea of it's aetiology?

My oh-so-reliable google search only turned up conflicting contemporary accounts of the tathlum.  Apparently the term is used in a few video games.

It is either a lime-coated head of an enemy, or a sling-shot made from lime and the brains of the enemy.  It's also been described simply as a cement ball.

Quite some inconsistencies in terms of its size.  A lime-coated head would provide the most realistic "shock" value, if recognized, of course.  Maybe a save vs. death or a system shock roll should apply.  The sling-shots made from the brains of an enemy would probably have more of a magical/superstitious effect, maybe +3-5 on hit/dmg, or some such.

Lugh apparently used one to put out Balor's eye, so unless Balor was huge, it would have to be the sling-shot variety.  :)

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 11:37 am 
 

A tathlum is supposedly the lime-encased head of an enemy. When thrown at someone in battle, it is devastating. Supposedly.
bclarkie, you can indeed have everything. Just play 3E. Make a half dragon/half mind flayer fighter/wizard/monk/bard/paladin. Should be easy to pick up a +27 holy vorpal flaming bastard sword of allslaying. Quite realistic, IMHO.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:01 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:bclarkie, you can indeed have everything. Just play 3E. Make a half dragon/half mind flayer fighter/wizard/monk/bard/paladin. Should be easy to pick up a +27 holy vorpal flaming bastard sword of allslaying. Quite realistic, IMHO.


That just makes me even more glad I never wasted any money on that crap.  :D   I have only owned a total of 2 3rd edition books. Of those books, both of which I had happened to pick in large lots turned me off so badly by the design and artwork, that I only barely leafed through the PHB which I sold right away. Unfortuantely, I still have the Monster Manual, but that happenes to be in the process of being sold on Ebay right now.  :)


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 4:17 pm 
 

That just makes me even more glad I never wasted any money on that crap


Amen,
3E is terrible. The guys that invented this, have to be the same guys that came up with the "new" coke concept back in the 80's.

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:16 pm 
 

Well I am glad it's not just me that think 3E is a total bag of SH*TE.

Having been out of the game for a while I snapped up a 52 book collection of 3E (still a good deal @ £110 ($200) I suppose). Looked through about three or four and had to get my old 1Es out to remind me what a good game was. The books remain in the box they came in.

I thought I had just got old and set in my ways!

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 5:24 pm 
 

Epicrates_cenchria wrote:Well I am glad it's not just me that think 3E is a total bag of SH*TE.

Having been out of the game for a while I snapped up a 52 book collection of 3E (still a good deal @ £110 ($200) I suppose). Looked through about three or four and had to get my old 1Es out to remind me what a good game was. The books remain in the box they came in.

I thought I had just got old and set in my ways!


Damn right that is a good deal regardless of how crappy the product really is. Unbelievably, there is actually a fairly decent market out there for 3 & 3.5. If you sold them individually on Ebay you would probably double that price if not more.


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:42 am 
 

Even though I haven't played it, I wouldn't call 3E a total bag of shite. . .

There really are some good concepts (and many poor ones) that were implemented. Monsters were given much better individual treatment - Guidelines for humanoid character classes, added power, relating size to attack ability and applying strength bonuses to attacks are just some of the good ideas.

The best being the "d20" system for determining results. AC progresses upwards, etc.

The concept of the feat system is also great - though many of the individual feats are flawed, overly powerful or just stupid. Same with prestige classes which seems to have gotten way out of control (Prestige classes and feats are now just excuses to create new supplements so the publisher can say:

"Over 15 all new Prestige classes and almost 50 new feats to choose from!"

I also like the multi-class system much better than in 1st & 2nd . . .

All that said, there is quite a bit I DON'T LIKE. If they had implemented a few of their good ideas and focused on the one main change being the d20 system then the game might still be D&D. . . well, the D&D that I like anyway. 8)


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 7:08 am 
 

Perhaps I should give 3E a bit more reading time, but fear my first conclusion was right I AM old and crotchety.

One of my big issues was the number of books that seem to be required. When I started playing 1E there were only three books and therefore no surprises for anyone. I remember the launches of Deities and Demigods, MMII, Fiend Folio, Dungeoneers and Wilderness Survival Guides and bought them the day they were released. 30minute walk, 45 ont he train and then an hour walk the other end. The day FF was released I forgot the games store was closed that day and had to make the journey twice. The joys of youth. Now I would just pre-order it on line and have it delivered.

In 1E I felt a number of these rules were unnecessary and took a certain amount of imagination and play away from DM and player alike. Now to be completely up with the rules you need a samll library.

While I am sure there is good in these books, they often feel like glossy coffee-table books rather than serious game accessories, over designed and over illustrated. This is what offend my gaming sensibilities. 1E always seemed if it wasn't 100% necessary it wasn't in. This allowed gaming groups to set rules that suited their situation style of play. I never joined a group that used spells the way the manuals described it.

Perhaps I will take a random selection with me on my business trip and try harder to understand the new system.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:33 am 
 

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:01 am 
 

I guess the good thing about D20, and the part that can be translated into 1E, is the D20 system. it IS easier than using 10 charts. Skills are acceptable. Feats are a joke. Great Cleave?
3E is for the new generation of video powergaming kids. That's why it sells.


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Post Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:02 am 
 

Epicrates_cenchria wrote:Perhaps I should give 3E a bit more reading time, but fear my first conclusion was right I AM old and crotchety.
<snip>
Perhaps I will take a random selection with me on my business trip and try harder to understand the new system.

Cue the rant!

I wouldn't try that hard, it's not you.  Well, maybe it is, but mostly it's the ridiculously over-detailed rules.  Sure, the artwork is crap, but that's irrelevant for gameplay.  The d20 system is a nice, well thought out system that makes a lot more sense.  So what, the old system taught you basic mental math skills.  

The thing about 1st Edition was, for the most part, you forget the books at home and still play a successful campaign, unless you were a total neophyte.  I'm not talking about memorizing rules here, although that helps.  I'm talking about the DM making a decent judgment call without/in spite of the rules.  DMs today are horribly boxed-in by a slew of feats/skills/rules/exceptions/specialty whatevers.  

Today, a player can pretty much make up any character he wants, and the reason often given for this is "roleplaying" (as opposed to "hack-and-slash", they claim.  Ha!).  The game is no longer fatalistic in the sense that you play the cards you are dealt.  Want to play a feral half-troll/half-orc  assassin/barbarian/shaman?  Go for it, just make sure you write a good backstory.  He's exiled and um...doesn't speak common, that's a fair trade.  Do directors let actors just randomly pick roles?  Don't think so.

With the emphasis on personal achievement and progression, players are attached to their characters like never before, which leads to min/maxing and a general lack of teamwork.  As many have pointed out before, "supercharacters" don't need other's help, and every 3E character is now a "supercharacter"!  Got a bad hit point roll?  No problem there's a skill to fix that up.  Etc.

Now, I'm sure some avid 3E fan will choose pick this post apart, or suggest I pick up a copy and really read through it.  I'd suggest the opposite.  Read 1st Ed.  Learn how roleplaying is meant to be, learn it's history, learn how it evolved into what it is today, and why that's not a good thing.  It will look very, very boring, as boring as "Pac Man" looks today.  That's because you need to fill in the imaginary blanks.

P.S. "Krusk" sucks.  Characters have now become brands.  I look forward to 4th edition where the DM will pause every few minutes to talk about how wonderful Coke/Microsoft/Ford is.  :roll:

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