Valuations ^^
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Sage Collector

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:27 am 
 

Good God, that's a horrendous mess! :( :( :(

Page Not Found

Make mine a SW'd Blackmoor in Poor condition. (*g*)
Plus a 1st Greyhawk in VG.
And a Fair 4th print OD&D box. (Maybe even a 2nd, too...)

No idea why the T1st DMG prices were "updated" after Paul's research...

*blinks eyes*

<...>

Could you please re-post the old valuations so I can save them for reference (flawed though they were).




p.s. Am with you on the NM/M distinction, but if appealing to comic grading & pricing a truly Mint (10.0) copy should cost 5 or more times a NM (9.4) one, not virtually the same... (*lol*)
*points to the CGC debacle...*. And even they don't go as hyper over trashing the lower grades.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 8:45 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:Good God, that's a horrendous mess! :( :( :(

Page Not Found

Make mine a SW'd Blackmoor in Poor condition. (*g*)
Plus a 1st Greyhawk in VG.
And a Fair 4th print OD&D box. (Maybe even a 2nd, too...)

No idea why the T1st DMG prices were "updated" after Paul's research...

*blinks eyes*

<...>

Could you please re-post the old valuations so I can save them for reference (flawed though they were).




p.s. Am with you on the NM/M distinction, but if appealing to comic grading & pricing a truly Mint (10.0) copy should cost 5 or more times a NM (9.4) one, not virtually the same... (*lol*)
*points to the CGC debacle...* (and even they don't go as hyper over trashing the lower grades)


My question on this goes to the rarity of the lisitngs. As I recall, before Paul's research, didn't the now T1st print(formerly listed as the third print, if I am remembering correctly) list as a 3 in Rarity and the former T1st(now listed as 2nd alpha) list as a 5, but now those figures are reversed? I am not sure if this is an oversight in the site update, if I am remebering incorrectly, or if this reflects the true remaining copies left in circulation. Thoughts anyone?


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


Sage Collector

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:30 am 
 

Will pay 50% over list for "Fair" copies of any of the following.

Chainmail 2nd ($40)
OD&D 4th (*not* 4th-, please!) ($20)
Greyhawk 1st ($5)
Greyhawk T1st ($19)
Dwarven Glory 1st ($46)
Dwarven Glory 2nd ($23)
Dwarven Glory 3rd ($20)
PoTVQ 5th ($13)
Inverness tourney ($95)
Orange B3 ($70)
Fazzle 1st ($70)
Dragon #1 ($20)

Any takers? :)


Might even trade a small stack of now-worthless of GW Character Sheet Pads (each missing a few sheets; otherwise nice condition).

  


Sage Collector

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:47 am 
 

Page Not Found
* Dungeon Masters Guide (2nd Alpha):  NM: $562 (9/04)

Pretty sure Dave Sutherland's copy is a FIRST print, not a 2nd Alpha.
Thought we'd already discussed that, elsewhere in the forum...

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:17 pm 
 

Howdy David,


harami2000 wrote:Page Not Found
* Dungeon Masters Guide (2nd Alpha): NM: $562 (9/04)

Pretty sure Dave Sutherland's copy is a FIRST print, not a 2nd Alpha.
Thought we'd already discussed that, elsewhere in the forum...


Correct. DCSIII's is a (TRUE) 1st print and I advertised it as such in the auction. It was primarily on David's word that I knew it to be a 1st print. At the time of the auction the Acaeum still considered it a 2nd Alpha. With my new chronology it turns out to be a 1st, just as I advertised in the auction.

Scott was under the impression that it had the MM pages bound into it, i.e., it was a 2nd Alpha. That was not the case. Apparently he has not had a chance to update his information.

Of course, it was DCSIII's copy that lead me to the discovery of a new 1st print. When I recently bought a 2nd Alpha (MM pages bound in) it confirmed DCSIII's word to be true.

Currently I am hung up on the MM research due to my failure to find a 4th-, a copy with the vampire eratta and the catalog with prices. It should look like a 3rd+ or a 4th on the front cover (ignore the spine).


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Sage Collector

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 12:42 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Howdy David,



harami2000 wrote:Page Not Found
* Dungeon Masters Guide (2nd Alpha): NM: $562 (9/04)

Pretty sure Dave Sutherland's copy is a FIRST print, not a 2nd Alpha.
Thought we'd already discussed that, elsewhere in the forum...

Correct. DCSIII's is a (TRUE) 1st print and I advertised it as such in the auction. It was primarily on David's word that I knew it to be a 1st print. At the time of the auction the Acaeum still considered it a 2nd Alpha. With my new chronology it turns out to be a 1st, just as I advertised in the auction.
...
Scott was under the impression that it had the MM pages bound into it, i.e., it was a 2nd Alpha. That was not the case. Apparently he has not had a chance to update his information.

Heya Paul,
Thanks for the confirmation, again. :)

Comparing with the old version in Google's cache, DCS's copy is newly mentioned (although it may have slinked in, just before the general refresh);
http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:4s ... s/DMG.html

Anyhow, the old Acaeum page labeled that version with MM pages as being the T1st Alpha not a "2nd Alpha".
So would've been wrong on either count...

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:19 pm 
 

Howdy David,


harami2000 wrote:Anyhow, the old Acaeum page labeled that version with MM pages as being the T1st Alpha not a "2nd Alpha".
So would've been wrong on either count...


Ah, what I meant was that Scott assumed the DCSIII copy was bound with MM pages and thus a 2nd Alpha (according to my new chronology). He obviously hadn't updated the update, as we discussed this with him and clarified that it did not have the MM pages.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 4:09 am 
 

Hello Everyone,

   There have been a lot of concerns expressed about evaluations lately (many of which were raised by Harami2000) . Currently Foul is out of the country for a few more weeks, so I thought I would take an opportunity to provide some background information on what exactly is going on.

Foul first came up with the idea of a valuation board around the September of last year.  Darkseraphim was asked to be the moderator and I want all of you to understand a few things. . .

The idea of a valuation board sounded great, but once it is put into practice, a few realities start to make themselves apparent.  

- How is data to be gathered?
- How is the accumulated data going to be evaluated?
- What criteria is used to determine values in various conditions?
- When does old data become obsolete?
- From what sources are prices attained (ebay only?, local stores, etc.)
- What effect does rarity have on value?

and many more. . .

In retropsect, it really was a monumental task for a volunteer effort.  If you stop and consider how it needs to be done, you will see that first a system needs to be created that can be applied to all items.  This system takes the form of various excel spreadsheets that darkseraphim developed.  It accounts for factors such as condition of the sold item, price of the sold item, year it was sold (giving more weight to recent auctions) & item completeness.  Thus,  values for an OCE can be gathered and input based on the conditions.  Obviously, the more individual entries there are, the more the actual value becomes a reflection on the current ebay average.

I an not going to go into particulars about how the math operates, etc.  What is important to keep in mind is that darkseraphim spent well over a 100 hours of his own time developing the groundworks for this system.  If you are wondering why we are going with a particular system over another. . . well, I suspect that no one here could or would commit a fraction of the effort darkseraphim put forth.  For myself, I often find it difficult to commint a few hours a week towards this effort and I know others on the board face similar time constraints.  

In any case, things are just beginning to get underway. . . after he developed the system, darkseraphim resigned as moderator/board member.  Eventually, Scott asked me to be the new moderator and I am doing my best to help "move things forward".    As Foul mentioned, the intitial values can be considered "Beta".  While they are accurate to the data gathered, the data is limited.  Currently the board member are working at gathering data for the higher rarirty items.  

It should be understood by all that this is an ongoing process, but let me address some specific questions here:

1)  A system is being put in place whereby values in various grade are standardized.  Thus, when evaluating the "Rares" the Very Good value of an item is 45% of the Mint price  and the Fair value is 10%.  Harami had several  :wink:  comments regarding the Fair value.  

Low FAIR or VERY GOOD values can be due to several factors:

- Limited data on the sale prices of items.  As more data is accumulated, the values will average out more.
- Different standards of grading.  From my (very limited) website I describe FAIR as follows:   These items have several large and significant flaws. Pages may be detached, a module cover completely split or the cover loose from a staple bound book. Large pieces may even be missing from the cover or a page (perhaps as large as ¼ the surface area). There may be significant water damage, extensive soiling, extremely heavy creasing, large tears, etc. The item is still complete (or mostly complete) and usable."
This description if much more inline with comicsbooks and FAIR is the lowest practical condition of an item (some may be POOR, but only very collectible items would ever sell in POOR).

- The 10% value could be too low. . . that is always something that needs to be looked at.   The system being used is not graven in stone and can be "tweaked" if it proves necessary.
- Finally, just because a 2nd print Woodie might sell at above FAIR guide at auction, does NOT necessarily mean the FAIR value is inaccurate.  Price Guides are just that. . . they are guides and not rules.  The rarer an item is, the more likely it is that a potential buyer will pay a higher amount.  This does not always indicate a flaw with the system and , ultimately, the sale in question will increase the value for future auctions.  Eventually, everything should even out.

2)  Harami also noted that even CGC doesn't devalue their Very Good as much.  Well, comic price guides may vary, but generally speaking comicbooks take the figurative "crap" on low grade items - it's high grade or nothing.  Thus,  Near Mint is set at 100%, Very Fine is 85%, Fine is 40%, Very Good is a mere 15%, Good 7% and Fair a paltry 3%.

3.)  Current values on things like an OCE are in the works - we are gathering data.  If the value of ebay auctions has increased, then ideally you should see the values climb once updates are performed.



Finally, this is a volunteer effort. . . . so patience is the name of the game.  Everyone is giving their own time to make this happen.  If board members get back their current data gathering to me in, say, the beginning of March, it may take me a few weeks or more/less to present them to Foul.  He also has to find time to make periodic updates.

Constructive criticism, praise, suggestions, questions or observations are always welcome!   8)


"Gleemonex makes it feel like it's seventy-two degrees in your head... all... the... time! "

  


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:26 am 
 

Are we setting ourselves up for a fall here?  Are we creating a bubble that will eventually burst?  Baseball cards in the 80s, Comics in the 90s...
Not that I care, I would love to see the prices of OOP FRPs drop.  I collect this stuff because I love it, not so I can say my collection is worth $50,000.

The argument will be brought up that the truly rare will retain their value, which is the case. But what is truly rare and what is perceived rare?

Second concern, just how anal are we going to get?  As for me, if the item looks good sitting on my shelf, I am happy.  Is condition really that important to most collectors that they would be willing to pay 45% more for mint condition?  Not me.  Again do we want to go the route of comic collecting? I see this as a entirely different hobby, and personally I do not want to emulate them.

No offence intended, I do not mean to belittle the volunteer hours you have put into this effort.

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:31 am 
 

Personally, I really like the site update particularly with the additonal scale :D. Although some of the values IMO are a bit skewed, as a whole, most of the things seem to be pretty closely inline with what I have seen. In all honesty, it is too be expected that somethings are going to vary considerably in peoples opinions as this process is clearly not an exact science and that is why they considered "opinions". The largest problem that I see, is the fact that the only easily accessable tool to monitor concrete sales figures that we have availible is EBay. So with that, trying to balance those figures including the things that seem to be currently "HOT" on Ebay(i.e OCE), against your own opinions as to actual rarity and value of items, it is a tenuous task at best in itself.

Another problem that I can see, is that there is a limited number of folks doing the valuations in their free time on so many items can cause the process to breakdown well. I am certainly not blaming the folks who do the valuations, because obviously they are clearly doing everyone a favor by doing them (which I for one and I would imagine most everyone else here really appreciates :wink: ), but with no clear lines of communication between them, other than a sporadic email here and there, it makes it difficult for the folks doing it to find common ground and "talk" out the values. Unfortuantely, due to obvious reasons,
that is probably an evil that cannot be overcome completely.

I think in the end it maybe beneficial to expand the valuation board to more people(assuming you can get enough volunteers) and possibly split up the task into groups, kind of like what was discussed with the site expansion thread. With that, I think that the individual groups could have a primary set of items assigned to them, as well a secondary set of items also. That would place a sort of checks and balances on the groupings of the items assigned to the different groups. In that way, the primary group would have the most say over the final valuations of the items assigned to them, but the secondary assesments could be used to ensure that those figures maintain an honest representation of the market value. IMO that would help take a load of the group as a whole, as the valuations of certain items would be delegated to a certain group of people, so instead of having 10-12 people working on 800-1000 items, you would have 25-30 people working in groups of 5 or 6 doing primary valuations on 125-150 items and another 5 or 6 folks doing secondary valuations on the same items. That would help lighten the load on everyone involved which I think in the long run that would also help with the communications department as well, because you have less people that you are trying to bounce though/ideas off of.


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  


Sage Collector

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:03 am 
 

As promised, passim...



Extract of estimated price trends for some of the more collectable items, 2001-2005, with added observations on latest changes vs. the color codings shown on the item lists.

(VG grade "prices" utilised, throughout, since anything better than VF is almost impossible for many/most of the earlier items within the current grading schema).

Code:
VG grade prices:

                          2001/08   2003/06   2004/12   2005/02            2004/12 -> 2005/02 trend

Chainmail 1st                 350       750       500       440            (not shown as a decrease)

Chainmail 2nd                 175       175       175       180            

Chainmail 3rd                            30        20        20            

OD&D 1st                      750      1250      1250      1000            (not shown as a decrease)

OD&D 2nd                      350       650       650       460            (not shown as a decrease)

OD&D 3rd                      350       350       350       310            

OD&D 4th                                140       140        90            (not shown as a decrease)

OD&D 5th                                140       140        85            (not shown as a decrease)

OD&D OCE                                100        60        45            (not shown as a decrease)

Greyhawk T1st                 110       110       110        85            (not shown as a decrease)

Greyhawk                                 35        25        21            

Blackmoor 1st                            35        20        48            

Blackmoor                                35        20        20            

Eldritch Wizardry 1st                    30        25        48            

Eldritch Wizardry                        30        25        16            

Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes 1st             30        20        45            

Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes                 30        20        16            

Swords & Spells 1st                      25        25        32            

Swords & Spells                          25        25        16            

Basic Set 1st                  40        50        50        41            

Basic Set 2nd                            18        18        22            

Basic Set 3rd                            18        18        18            

Deities & Demigods (w/Cthulhu)           40        30        26            

Monster Manual 1st             85       125        65        60            

Player's Handbook T1st                   85        85        65            (not shown as a decrease)

Player's Handbook 1st                    85        30        45            (not shown as a increase)

                                                                          .

B3 orange                     250       250       250       320            

B10                                      30        30        26            

GDQ1-7                                   40        40        41            

H1                                       40        40        45            

L3                                       20        20        20            (shown as an increase)

R1                             80        75        75        65            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

R2                             80        75        75        65            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

R3                             80        75        75        65            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

R4                             80       110       110        75            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

RPGA1                         100       125       125        90            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

RPGA2                         100       125       125        90            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

RPGA3                         100       125       125        90            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

RPGA4                         100       125       125        90            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

ST1                           650      1000      1000       775            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

WGR1                                     35        35        29            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

WGR4                                     25        25        24            (shown as an increase)

Dwarven Glory 1st             175       500       500       210            

Dwarven Glory 2nd              65        65        65       105            

Dwarven Glory 3rd              65        65        65        90            (not shown as a increase)

G/Tower of Inverness tourney  400       650       650       450            (not shown as a decrease)

Jade Hare (coverless)         100       120       120        90            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

Jade Hare (w/cover)           350       650       650       450            

Lost Caverns of Tsojconth     400       650       650       450            (not shown as a decrease)

Lost Tamoachan tourney        400       650       650       450            (not shown as a decrease)

PotVQ (w/o folder)            175       500       500       330            

PotVQ (black folder)          175       500       500       330            

PotVQ (3rd)                   175       350       350       180            

PotVQ (4th)                    55        85        85       120            

PotVQ (5th)                    55        85        85        55            (not shown as a decrease)

Pharaoh                       350       650       650       500            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

Quest for the Fazzlewood 1st  300       500       500       330            

Quest for the Fazzlewood 2nd  150       350       350       330            

Rahasia                       350       650       650       500            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

                                                                          .

10th Anniv. Collector's Set    50       200       200       180            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

AD&D Fighting Wheel            50        50        50        45            

Artists of TSR                                    100        65            (not shown as a decrease)

Character Archaic              90       175       175       125            

Character Records 1975-green              0         0        45            (shown as new, not an increase)

Character Records 1976-orange             0         0        25            (shown as new, not an increase)

Character Records 1977-lizard             0         0        20            (shown as new, not an increase)

Character Sheets (GW)          18        85        85        75            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

Dark & Hidden Ways (w/DSG)               30        20        30            

Dungeon Floor Plans (GW)       18        85        85        55            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

Dungeon Geomorphs 1st (per set)          18        18        29            

First Quest (casette)          40        80        80        26            

First Quest (vinyl)            40        80        80        50            (not shown as a decrease)

Hex Sheets (GW)                18        85        85        47            

Outdoor Geomorphs 1st                    80        80        75            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

Outdoor Geomorphs 2nd                    80        80        65            (not shown as a decrease)

Outdoor Geomorphs 3rd                    80        80        45            (not shown as a decrease)

Player Character Records AC5             10        30        38            

Quadrille Graph Paper          15        15        15        27            

Secrets of the Sages           60        60        60        45            (not shown as a decrease)

Silver Anniv. Collector's Edn.           15        15        16            

Understanding D&D              30        15        15         9            (not shown as a decrease)

Wild Things (w/WSG)            45        45        30        30            (shown as an increase)

                                                                          .

Dragon #1                     125       125       125        90            

Dragon #2                      55        55        55        45            

Dragon #3                      45        45        45        23            

Dragon #4                      35        35        35        23            

Dragon #5                      35        35        35        23            

Strategic Preview #3-6 (ea.)                       80        45            (shown as an increase, not a decrease)

Strategic Review #1            25        25        25        18            (not shown as a decrease)

Strategic Review #2-6 (ea.)    20        20        20        16            (not shown as a decrease)

Strategic Review #7            20        25        25        16            (not shown as a decrease)


  

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 10:01 am 
 

Where did you come up with that, Harami?


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:55 pm 
 

Regarding valuations of role playing books, I find that the entire grading system as currently set up is both too unwieldly, and too extreme at both ends.  It assumes that there is such a thing as mint, which as any book collector will tell you, doesn't exist.  If we're to be grading role playing books, then perhaps we should be using a book grading scale, like this one, not a comic book scale.



(The following is copied from the link, with suggested valuations noted as percentages of Very Fine grade.)



When two condition codes are listed, the condition of the book is listed first, and the condition of the dust jacket is listed second.



Very Fine (VF) - Essentially a "New" book (or "As New") with no defects, a crisp, tight binding, and absolutely no flaws found under close examination. A book that is in perfect condition with no sign that it has been read. The dustjacket (if it was issued with one) must be perfect, without any tears.

Value: 100% of Very Fine



Fine (F) - A book in "Fine" condition approaches the condition of "Very Fine", but without being crisp. There must also be no defects, etc. Fine allows a small bump or two. If the book was read, it was done very carefully. The dustjacket may not be as shiny as new, but has no wrinkles, folds, chips or tears.

Value: 80% of Very Fine



Near Fine (NF) - No defects, little usage, and markings are minimal. A minor flaw may be present. "Fine" with a little more wear and some very minor flaws.

Value: 65% of Very Fine



Very Good (VG) - A book in "Very Good" condition shows light wear to the book, and/or jacket, but with no large tears, or major defects. It is attractive, but not unusually so and is no longer fresh.  Acceptable flaws might include: clipping, small tears or rips, rubbing, and a less than tight binding. There may be an Inscription on the front flyleaf. To qualify for "Very Good" however, the book must be completely intact, with a dustjacket (if one was issued).

Value: 50% of Very Fine



Good (G) - A book, or dust jacket in average used, and worn condition, but complete. Books in "Good" condition (or worse) are generally avoided by serious collectors unless there are few or no other copies available. They may have large chips and tears, price clipping, inscriptions, a loose binding etc.

Value: 35% of Very Fine



Fair (FR) - A book that is worn and handled, but no text pages are missing. It may be without a dust jacket, endpapers, or a title page. The binding may be loose and the jacket (if any), will likely be well-worn. It may be soiled with tears, but maps and plates must still be present.

Value: 20% of Very Fine



Poor (P) - Having very little collector value, a book in "Poor" condition is relegated to merely a "reading copy". It is very well worn and may have severe binding defects. A few text pages and perhaps maps or plates may be missing. "Poor" copies may be soiled, scuffed, stained or spotted and may have loose joints, hinges, pages, etc. Not fit for collecting unless extremely rare.  

Value: 10% of Very Fine



The above is how I graded cavscout761's Traveller books (at his request).  With a slight amount of tweaking, it can also apply to box sets, keeping in mind that when you are grading, you grade the whole.  Any parts that are missing will knock the grade down to Poor.  For example, someone here mentioned a Tractics box set missing its reference sheets.  Missing items means the box set grades at Poor, in my view.



Two more examples, and I am done here.



Example 2: The Traveller Book.



This book in my collection is a perfect example for the guidelines, because it's not perfect, but it also illustrates how all paper goods that aren't books can be graded, since as noted above, dustjackets are graded seperately from the book itself.



Starting on the outside, with the dustjacket, on examining the dustjacket, there is a 1 inch long tear at the top of the front dustjacket.  The top and bottom of the dustjacket on all sides are worn, with flaking and chipping evident as well as creases along both top and bottom from excessive wear.  Further, someone attempted to stabilize the condition of the dustjacket, using tape on the unprinted side of the jacket.  To prevent further damage, a removeable acid-free mylar cover was added to the dustjacket, identical to the kind of covers libraries use.  Grade: Good (large chips and tears, tape damage).



Regarding the book itself, the dustjacket did its job, preventing surface damage to the covers of the book.  The only really noticeable damage on this book is at the bottom edge, where the book actually makes contact with its shelf.  Some of the black has worn off.  On the top, there is a slight amount of black missing at the top edge of each hinge of the book, proving that this book has been open and read.  The spine though still remains tight and the pages are bright.  Grade: Very Good (the small amount of rubbing on the bottom surface of the book is the only thing really preventing this one from being in Near Fine.)



Example 3: Warriors of Mars



This one is to illustrate just how bad a book can be.  Let's start with the physical appearance.  The book on the whole is warped due to contact with moisture at some point in its existence.  The front cover has several stains on it in the lower right corner.  There is rubbing evident on the front cover of the picture itself.  There is additional staining around the staple holes on the left hand side of the book, some due to moisture, others due to staple rust.  There is tape damage on the cover (presumably to stabilize the spine, tape was added).



Looking at the spine itself, It has loosened though it is not in danger of falling off.  The stains noted on the front cover also extend to the spine itself.



The back cover of this book has extensive water damage, leaving a large dark streak on the back, and some of the actual paper has peeled away near the top.  It seems likely that this book at one time or another was part of a pile of books that somehow got damp and stuck together.



Looking at the inside of the book, staple rust extends all the way to the center of the book, and in fact had started to eat away at the center pages.  The staples themselves have no staple rust as the staples had been replaced at some point in their past.  Tape has been applied to the staple holes in the center pages to prevent those pages from falling out.  The same thing has been done to the title page and last page, ostensibly for the same purpose.  The water damage at the point of contact on the back cover extends inward for about ten pages, leaving brown stains on those pages.



All in all, this book was not well maintained.  Grade: Poor (too many defects to count, really only good as a reading copy).



  


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:15 pm 
 

Traveller wrote:Any parts that are missing will knock the grade down to Poor. For example, someone here mentioned a Tractics box set missing its reference sheets. Missing items means the box set grades at Poor, in my view.


Thanks, Traveller.



You're going to give some people with Woodgrain boxes a heart attack, there. (Have mentioned the absence of reference/amendment sheets for a long time, but wasn't getting too many hooks!).



Am certainly happier with the book scale although that has inevitably also been tailored somewhat towards the modern first edition collectors' market - books sitting around unused are perhaps more common than the diversity of RPG items; the older ones, anyhow.

Would also tend to transfer prices into "Fine" (by the above definition) for maximal grading in such cases: the $625 estimate currently sitting on a NM 3rd woodgrain, for example.



(Specific book points such as dustjackets and price-clipping are more difficult to transfer, phps, but is certainly a closer comparison than "direct to bag" comics, I think.

Other points such as the sharp tail-off in values for poorer grades don't apply so apparently to rarer RPG items, but those can be handled on an exception basis and/or use of a different sliding scale).



JM-2-cents for now, anyhow.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:34 pm 
 

Traveller, what you said in the latter half of your post is exactly the way I grade books.

I don't.

I describe them as best as possible, every flaw I can find, every good thing I can find, and let the other person decide what they want to pay/trade for it. I don't accept NM, EX+ as grading systems from people I buy/trade from, I ask them for a description. I am not perfect, I do occasionally miss something, but others miss things when they describe an item to me, and as long as it's not a piss stain on the cover, who cares if there is a spine crease that was missed.

It's not like I say to my wife "Wow, look at this EX+ Tsojconth! It is worth $672.50!". I see a Tsoj with some minor wear, rubbing, maybe a few folds, and it goes for $600-$800, depending on the buyer. One with no noticeable flaws is $800-$1,000. It really is an easy way to do it, and no one can say "You fucked me, you said it was Fine+ and it's only Fine-."

Actually, it's not like I say ANYTHING to my wife about buying D&D items. She pinches pennies so hard Lincoln begs for mercy.


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:37 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:......Actually, it's not like I say ANYTHING to my wife about buying D&D items. She pinches pennies so hard Lincoln begs for mercy.


:lol:  Mine too.   :roll:


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:53 pm 
 

Harami, well, if they're having a heart attack, perhaps next time they'll think to look for those reference/amendment sheets that apparently are supposed to be with the box.  No one here should be grading their own collectibles because invariably we're going to overlook flaws that should be noted because the items are ours.  Perhaps that's why you're seeing so much resistance to the idea that the reference/amendment sheets reduce the condition significantly.



I don't mean to give everyone with Woodgrain sets heart attacks, but if something's missing, it's in Poor condition.  That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.



Fadedgiant, where I pulled that link from, specializes in antique books, so to me it seems to be a perfect fit, condition wise.  Seeing as we are dealing with books from 1974-1989, it makes sense to me.  But I do understand where you are coming from in that respect.  My only thing is this: a book is a book is a book.  Allowances should not be made simply because of subject matter, even if the subject is near and dear to us.  As to transferring Near Mint into Fine, I agree with that.  It makes perfect sense.



The grading system would need to be tweaked to take into account those things that an ordinary book wouldn't have: seperate maps, boxes, shrinkwrap, and things like that.  In the end though, the one thing that needs to be kept in mind?  A book is a book is a book.



(Noticed that Deadlord replied while writing this, so will take a seperate post to reply to him.)



  


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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 4:55 pm 
 

Deadlord36 wrote:It's not like I say to my wife "Wow, look at this EX+ Tsojconth! It is worth $672.50!". I see a Tsoj with some minor wear, rubbing, maybe a few folds, and it goes for $600-$800, depending on the buyer. One with no noticeable flaws is $800-$1,000. It really is an easy way to do it, and no one can say "You fucked me, you said it was Fine+ and it's only Fine-."


*nods*. That's looking at things the right way around, IMHO.



Overall "look and feel" does work for most people.

Rather than getting people searching for any possible flaw or interpretation to hit an item down a grade or fraction within an over-engineered schema.



(Price bands I like, too, especially wide and overlapping ones. Putting those against five grade bands (max.) would be viable, I suspect; and prices in this context are still of some "use" even for people who don't like things being reduced to dollar-value. House contents insurance, for example...).



Deadlord36 wrote:Actually, it's not like I say ANYTHING to my wife about buying D&D items. She pinches pennies so hard Lincoln begs for mercy.


Aww... but she did find you that Misty or later Dwarven for a buck or something, no?

  

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 5:12 pm 
 

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, it seems to be a fait accompli that The Acaeum is moving in the direction of an online price guide.  There are pitfalls to this, and one only need to look at both the trading card market and the comic book market to note that.  However, since The Acaeum is headed in this direction, it's incumbent as members of it to present all available options to those who are part of the valuation board.



I can see where not grading the book but listing the defects has benefits.  It does allow the buyer to determine whether he wants it or not, and there's nothing wrong with that.  But in the case of the valuation board, since they have in fact established a price guide of sorts, our hands are tied.  I just don't believe the valuation board is using the right system to grade books, because there are just too many variables that aren't taken into account with a comic book-based grading system.



  

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Post Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:34 pm 
 

Actually, Harami, she finds more stuff than I do. She has bought her share of dogs, like a beat up D1-2 for $10, but she has more than made up for it.


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