Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?
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Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:43 pm 
 

Hello, everyone, I was wondering if any of you have encountered a slightly smaller version of a Dungeon Masters Guide that is in all ways identical to the 6th Gamma Print, with its "Revised December 1979" notice, white flyleaves, no survey, no perforated reference sheets, and 238 numbered pages (240 total) . . . EXCEPT---

(1.) It has a rough-textured  cover, just like the first few DMG prints

(2.) All dimensions are slightly smaller

(3.) Cover material is slightly flexible. This copy appears to be slightly bent, but the cover material stock shows no signs of being forcibly bent back.

(4.) The textblock is significantly smaller, and the paper stock itself is even thinner than the normal rough stock used for later prints. So thin, in fact, that I am surprised there are no missing pages or severely torn pages

(5.) It is about five ounces lighter than the usual, very common 6th Gamma Print.

(6.) "2011" (product code) and the TSR address block and significantly closer to the bottom edge of the front cover.

(7.) No signs of manufacturing errors. No Second Alpha Print style spectacular stuff, no paperstock defects, no inking errors, no angled pages, etc.

I have never seen anything like this before, and have referenced the DMG listing (which, curiously, does not note the rough-texture covers of the first few printings!) Could this have been a test print looking to cut down production costs, but bringing back the rough cover texture to help protect the otherwise severely compromised durability? If anybody knows the story behind this, I'd be happy to know.

This book was used a bit ($11.00 written on pencil at the top right of the front flyleaf, minor pencil writing at a few points, noticeably heavier creasing toward the treasure tables and combat charts.  I was going to designate it for a future eBay auction item as a superior play copy or as a good-quality but not perfect collectible, until I touched the book and immediately felt the rough texture. At this point I am going to hold onto it until I have more information about it. To that end, I will take several photos and perhaps a Youtube clip of it, using a regular 6th Print Gamma and a First Print (or should that be, "FIRST PRINT!!!!!" ?) as two comparison books.

Thanks for any attention or feedback!


---Pauly


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Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:47 pm 
 

Some photos. I initially tried taking them indoors but because of the glare took a few outdoors photos just before sunset.

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:51 pm 
 

Three additional images . .  . Three  more photos to follow.

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 6:54 pm 
 

Three final photos, unless more are needed.

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:16 pm 
 

I realized I forgot to show the weight discrepancy, so here's two more. The first photo is the standard 6th Gamma Print DMG, while the second is the lighter version with the slightly flexible, rough textured cover.

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Post Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 7:19 pm 
 

CORRECTION: In the previous "scale" photos, the first picture is the lightweight version, while the second photo is the standard version.


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Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:49 am 
 

Can the "new" version be an UK print? It could match with EU standards of A4 size rather than the US "letter"...


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Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:02 am 
 

This one is definitely printed in the USA, according to the information on the title page. To the best of my understanding, there was never a smaller or softcover version of the DMG, as there were with PHB and MM1 (which were both manufactured by Games Workshop under license from TSR, unttil TSR UK opened in 1981), Furthermore, the German and French foreign editions were for the Easley-cover printings.

The rough-textured cover is what sticks out the most. I wouldn't have noticed the other stuff, were it not for the rough texture.


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Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:15 pm 
 

This is very interesting. Sorry I wouldn't have anything to offer that wasn't speculation. With so many differences, it would be hard to imagine it being a pre publication or test print. If it was more common (and maybe it is, people just aren't looking for it) you'd wonder if they had more than one Printer making it that had their own slightly different plates and used different stock.
It would almost seem to be a reproduction but that would be so unlikely I shouldn't even mention it.

Cool find regardless, wish you luck and will be on the lookout for it to see if there are more than just yours.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:25 pm 
 

A bit more info:

The pages are even thinner than the rough-paper stock common to all the later printings (to cut down on production costs), but these thinner pages are SMOOTH! I just noticed that as I made this admittedly rambling and unscripted 8:17 video about this book, which is compared primarily with a regular Sixth Alpha Print, but also a First Print and a Second Beta Print to hopefully make clear the lighter-weight rough-covered 6th Print I have is possibly an anomaly with a logical backstory that has to be out there somewhere.

(The parts when I say "Second Alpha Print" are actually "Second Beta Print" . . . sorry about that!)

youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=uCIUX ... CIUXEsMyW0


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Post Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 10:56 am 
 

PaulyDragon wrote in Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?:A bit more info:

The pages are even thinner than the rough-paper stock common to all the later printings (to cut down on production costs), but these thinner pages are SMOOTH! I just noticed that as I made this admittedly rambling and unscripted 8:17 video about this book, which is compared primarily with a regular Sixth Alpha Print, but also a First Print and a Second Beta Print to hopefully make clear the lighter-weight rough-covered 6th Print I have is possibly an anomaly with a logical backstory that has to be out there somewhere.

(The parts when I say "Second Alpha Print" are actually "Second Beta Print" . . . sorry about that!)

youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=uCIUX ... CIUXEsMyW0


Speculation only:
1. It's a re-bind. Someone with the money to pay to have an old, worn version of a beloved book rebound professionally (or, did it themselves as a hobby/profession.)
2. It's a bootleg. VERY well done, but a bootleg. Someone obviously put some effort into this thing.

  

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Post Posted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:27 am 
 

MadCatUSA wrote in Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?:
PaulyDragon wrote in Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?:A bit more info:

The pages are even thinner than the rough-paper stock common to all the later printings (to cut down on production costs), but these thinner pages are SMOOTH! I just noticed that as I made this admittedly rambling and unscripted 8:17 video about this book, which is compared primarily with a regular Sixth Alpha Print, but also a First Print and a Second Beta Print to hopefully make clear the lighter-weight rough-covered 6th Print I have is possibly an anomaly with a logical backstory that has to be out there somewhere.

(The parts when I say "Second Alpha Print" are actually "Second Beta Print" . . . sorry about that!)

youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=uCIUX ... CIUXEsMyW0


Speculation only:
1. It's a re-bind. Someone with the money to pay to have an old, worn version of a beloved book rebound professionally (or, did it themselves as a hobby/profession.)
2. It's a bootleg. VERY well done, but a bootleg. Someone obviously put some effort into this thing.


Good points! However, if it IS a bootleg (and not some sort of test run reducing book size and weight while resuming usage of the former , durable rough cover material) I wonder why someone would go through the trouble of counterfeiting a very common printing of the DMG? Wouldn't they save that for the 2Ap? This is like people counterfeiting new $1 bills instead of counterfeiting new $100 bills, unless of course the $1 is a test step for the $100.

Thank you for the insight. It is much appreciated :)

---Pauly


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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:03 am 
 

PaulyDragon wrote in Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?:Three final photos, unless more are needed.


Attachment:
IMAG9557.jpg


I looked at a couple of DMGs on eBay and saw several examples with the ISBN closer to the edge and a rough cover (pretty much all I could do from the pictures typically presented). So, your copy may not be unique at least.

Oddly enough I saw a 6th Alpha with the same characteristics as your's also (ISBN closer to edge and rough cover). I'm liking the idea that there was either a second Printer with their own print cylinders (with a tighter text block). It would make sense due to the surge in popularity during this printing. Or the same Printer utilizing different Stock and Cylinders (to cut production costs?).

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 12:46 pm 
 

Mister Yuk wrote in Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?:
PaulyDragon wrote in Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?:Three final photos, unless more are needed.


Attachment:
IMAG9557.jpg


I looked at a couple of DMGs on eBay and saw several examples with the ISBN closer to the edge and a rough cover (pretty much all I could do from the pictures typically presented). So, your copy may not be unique at least.

Oddly enough I saw a 6th Alpha with the same characteristics as your's also (ISBN closer to edge and rough cover). I'm liking the idea that there was either a second Printer with their own print cylinders (with a tighter text block). It would make sense due to the surge in popularity during this printing. Or the same Printer utilizing different Stock and Cylinders (to cut production costs?).


Yes, I saw that too! I purchased one where the seller thought the cover was in "poor condition" (actually, it's the rough cover looking rough like it's supposed to ) while remarking on the stiffness of the interior. So I purhased this, with the thought of sending a copy for analysis  to one of the real experts who knows far more about the printing history than nost of us, or even a bit more than what's currently listed on the Acaeum's DMG page. I'm thinking there's room for another (probably very common) 6th Print variety, since there are a ton of letters remaining in the Greek alphabet. But if these are actually counterfeit (which I sense they are not) then I'm stuck with twice the bootleg :/

Purchased copy, which is on its way:

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:04 pm 
 

Yeah, I'm looking at one also that's ending soon. It just, a few minutes ago, got a bid on it. Is it someone looking for a cheap DMG or is it someone who had read your post :) ? It's has been personalized which is something I like in these. I know from a Collecting viewpoint, you want it to be as "original condition" as possible but with this stuff I think there is some merit to having that unique-ness that shows how unique each person was that played this game. Maybe that's just me...

I think that's going to be something with these. If they are more cheaply made, they are going to typically be more worn. But also as in the case of the one you bought, sellers that don't know are going to take that rough cover as an imperfection, and those that know better will have an advantage - like us!

I remember reading on here that what is called a printing is not always so, specifically. If the book or module says it's a "x" printing - it is called that printing. If it does not specifically state a printing - it's more of just a guideline of which was probably before or after the others of it's name. That point was made in this post -

FoulFoot wrote in How do you tell a 2nd print S1 from a 7th?:Most likely there were dozens of actual printings, but so far, we've only be able to differentiate seven.  :)  Many prints may have been identical, since nothing needed to be changed.

If the sole difference in two prints is the placement of the ISBN, I'm likely to simply designate it as two versions of the Second print.  They were of course two separate printings, but it often gets to be ridiculous in shifting the whole sequence for such minor details (i.e., do you also designate a new printing if the size changes by a tenth of an inch?  I've been down that road, and it isn't pretty).  So, we'll have to see.

Foul


Personally I'd like to see stated printings called the various printings and if not stated, just be called groups or something like that (I can't think of a good word for it right this second). Either way, it's going to be confusing to someone. A lot of this is already confusing, like when TSR was mixing & matching Basic box sets together to clear out pieces or didn't have everything in the set that should have been.

  

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Post Posted: Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:32 pm 
 

PaulyDragon wrote in Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?:A bit more info:

The pages are even thinner than the rough-paper stock common to all the later printings (to cut down on production costs), but these thinner pages are SMOOTH! I just noticed that as I made this admittedly rambling and unscripted 8:17 video about this book, which is compared primarily with a regular Sixth Alpha Print, but also a First Print and a Second Beta Print to hopefully make clear the lighter-weight rough-covered 6th Print I have is possibly an anomaly with a logical backstory that has to be out there somewhere.

(The parts when I say "Second Alpha Print" are actually "Second Beta Print" . . . sorry about that!)

youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=uCIUX ... CIUXEsMyW0


Further speculation:
Could this be a UK or Aussie printing? Is there any way to tell for certain if it was printed in either country?

  

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Post Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:09 pm 
 

Someday ---- some glorious day ----  one of these posts is going to reveal that my virtually worthless 9th print DMG is actually a super rare 9.3 Gamma-Delta Print, one of only a handful of known copies personally bound and sewn by Gary Gygax during the little known Wisconsin printing press strike of 1986, and is now worth thousands of dollars!

:D


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Post Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:20 pm 
 

Agent Cooper wrote in Lighter-weight, flexible but rough-covered 6th Print  DMG?:Someday ---- some glorious day ----  one of these posts is going to reveal that my virtually worthless 9th print DMG is actually a super rare 9.3 Gamma-Delta Print, one of only a handful of known copies personally bound and sewn by Gary Gygax during the little known Wisconsin printing press strike of 1986, and is now worth thousands of dollars!

:D


8O  :o  :roll:  :D  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  8)

  
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