It seems there are  two questions here:

1) Validity/Morality/Legality of PDFs.

It is a simple issue. They are generally illegal in the context we are placing them - D&D modules and accessories. End of story. Unless the copyright holder has given permission to copy said item, you cannot (I am not talking about making a copy for use within your own home).

2) Do PDFs hurt sales of the originals?

It would take quite of a bit of research to answer that question. But, in general, I am say yes. Simply, if there were no PDFs online and available, sales could not be hindered. The simple fact that they exist and are readily available on the internet creates an environment where value can be affected. Is it being affected? No idea, but it certainly could and that is enough for me to hate the very thought PDFs.

Even though a much too large percentage of Americans think there is no right and wrong, just degrees of each, the law is the law. Everyone can make a mistake and break the law. We can err in judgement and drive our cars to fast, or miss a stop sign. But willfully reproducing a copyrighted document and placing it on the internet is not an error or misjudgement - it is a criminal act.

I am not going to make too serious of a post here because 1) I dont have the necessary knowledge of federal law to really make any specific argument, and 2) I am guilty of breaking those laws from time to time.  :wink:

The two cents I did want to put in were simply that I dont think that having .PDF's of current and out-of-print items is a major issue as it pertains to the market price of the actual item.  The only example I can really make is I.C.E.'s MERP line.  Several years ago, almost all of the MERP items were available for download for free on News — MERP .com Middle-earth Role Playing Tolkien RPG Community Website.  They were eventually pulled because of licensing issues.  I believe that the owners of the website thought the PDF's were legal because Iron Crown no longer existed but I dont have all the details.  Basically they were asked to cease and desist or face a lawsuit.  I had spent a good amount of time downloading the entirety of the MERP titles available along with thousands of other people before they were pulled from the site.  I still have them and enjoy reading the content once in awhile.

Do I feel bad about owning them?  Of course not.  No one is getting hurt and no one is making money from them.  I dont believe they hurt the collectability of the MERP line either.  The last few years have seen the prices for most MERP items on Ebay skyrocket.  I myself have bought several MERP items for what I thought were decent prices so it is not like I dont plan on buying anymore of them just because I have the PDF.

Now if I was putting them all on disk and trying to sell the disk on Ebay for a profit, I would expect a severe ass-kicking for that.  :twisted:

How can anybody believe that PDF's do not affect the market, that is just silly.  For new material I know of many people using PDF's and distributing them to other gamers instead of buying the books; this obviously impacts sales of new items and is plain theft of property.

As far old stuff goes, reprints always impact sales, especially of the rare and expensive stuff.  many collecors are readers as well (like me) and would take a PDF instead of an expensive collectors item anyday.

Anybody who thinks PDF's, photocopies or other rip-off's do not impact the market is just plain wrong

Blackmoor wrote:Anybody who thinks PDF's, photocopies or other rip-off's do not impact the market is just plain wrong

While you are entitled to your opinion, it is just that...your opinion. Sure, get a hold of the number of people that illegally copy rulebooks and such and compare the sales from WotC and other gaming producers with what would have been if there were no illegal PDF's and you will probably find a marginal impact. I would say much less of an impact than the movie and music industry is currently dealing with because of bootleg DVD's and mp3 sharing.

And as far as the out-of-print items are concerned. I dont think PDF's impact it at all. When WotC put all of the out-of-print items for free download on their website, I thought it was great so I proceeded to download everything. I didnt have most of the items they offered and wanted to see what the contents were like. That was around four or so years ago. Since then I have purchased most of those items off of Ebay or other means. One item I still do not have is The North box set for the Forgotten Realms. I simply can never find it on Ebay. If I did find it, I would probably pay way too much for it because I want one that much.

And as far as the really rare items like the Orange B3, ST1, R and RPGA series, etc. If anything the value of these items just keeps going up. Collectors arent going to settle for a copy or PDF. And most people that download the PDF's cant afford the real deal anyway.

People download illegally for all sorts of different reasons. I do think that most people do it just to get information about something they dont have in their hands at the time. Once they get it in their hands, the PDF takes a back seat and is probably not used again. I like the idea of free downloads to find out if I want to buy something or not. I do the same thing with mp3's. If I like the songs, I buy the album. If I dont, I won't. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the last time I checked, it was illegal to share music, not download it...and I dont share any mp3's that I download.  I dont see how that affects the music industry at all. I just dont buy a crappy CD that I wouldnt have likely bought in the first place. To me that is the same as downloading a PDF of the 3.5E Players Handbook and then deciding that the rules suck. If I had gone into a bookstore and looked through the rules I would have likely come to the same conclusion and not purchased it.

I am not going to say anyone is right or wrong. Do what you want and use your own conscience to determine that. Just because a law exists doesnt mean it is 100% lawful.

bclarkie wrote:Everyone is certianly entitled to their own opinions of this debate as far as the morality of it or the lawfulness of it, but the facts as stated are pretty clear. The fact of the matter is that if someone, anyone, loses even as little as $0.01 due to an illegal copy/pdf sale, that is affecting the market, you cant argue that. As trivial as this may sound it is still the facts and this principle applies to both currently in print items as well as out of print items. Any fluctuation in the market positvely or negatively that would not have occured due to illegal pdf or copy sale(s) is still just an affect on the market. period. You can dispute how much it affects the market negatively due to a decrease in sales or you can argue that it will cause an increase in sales due to an increased interest in the said product, but any affect up or down, small or large is still an affect.

That being said, this affect is artificial and in the long run should have never occured due to the fact that this affect good or bad, large or small is artificial if it is not okay by the current copyright holder.

See what happens when 1) A post is taken out of context, 2) You post while at work, and 3) posts in a thread get a bit off topic.

I should really stick to flaming people like creep and pointing out the occasional odd auction instead of arguing a point like this.  Blackmoor is 100% correct regarding PDF's affecting the market regardless of how little impact I think they actually make.  I read into a meaning that really wasnt there.  :oops:  :P

Maybe the mod should lock the thread since there really is no debate on the original post any longer.  :idea:

mbassoc2003 wrote: OB3 has been available free from WoTC for the past four years and the price of an original is astronomical,

Ok I have to know. Not familiar with OB3. Can't find it on the TSR archive. Sorry for go off topic for a moment but I am just not familiar with that particular item.

Marlith wrote::?: Ok I have to know. Not familiar with OB3. Can't find it on the TSR archive. Sorry for go off topic for a moment but I am just not familiar with that particular item.

As opposed to oC1 & oC2 (although with oB3 you could read that as "orange" as well as "original").

mbassoc2003 wrote:...I think there has been no impact on the market.

OB3 has been available free from WoTC for the past four years and the price of an original is astronomical, and ST1 has been available free on Kazaa for just as long. The Dragon Magazine Archive is going up in price, and the magazines themeselves are not depreciating.

Good to have you back, Ian. Hope you weren't having too many nightmares 'bout missed ST1 £5 BINs and suchlike.

Well, of those three, oB3 decreased when the free pdf was released (although that was possibly a market adjustment for what is still a somewhat overvalued item) and the mid-range Dragon magazines plummeted to near zero when the Archive was released.
ST1 is just plain mad...

mbassoc2003 wrote:All moral and legal issues aside, I don't think we can rely on the copyright holders of ST1 and other more bazaar and remote publications like Owl & Weasel or Lair of the Spider Mother to prevent the product disappearing into history unrecorded. If someone doesn't PDF them, sooner or later they will be gone.

There's a degree of truth in that, no doubt.
Whereas it might be hoped that the rarities might end up in collections there's a chance many copies will just be trashed. Was talking with someone recently who simply threw out their run of Trollcrushers, because they didn't like them, and casually gave away their first twenty-odd O&Ws.

KingOfPain wrote:I am not going to make too serious of a post here because 1) I dont have the necessary knowledge of federal law to really make any specific argument, and 2) I am guilty of breaking those laws from time to time.

The two cents I did want to put in were simply that I dont think that having .PDF's of current and out-of-print items is a major issue as it pertains to the market price of the actual item. The only example I can really make is I.C.E.'s MERP line. Several years ago, almost all of the MERP items were available for download for free on News — MERP .com Middle-earth Role Playing Tolkien RPG Community Website. They were eventually pulled because of licensing issues. I believe that the owners of the website thought the PDF's were legal because Iron Crown no longer existed but I dont have all the details. Basically they were asked to cease and desist or face a lawsuit. I had spent a good amount of time downloading the entirety of the MERP titles available along with thousands of other people before they were pulled from the site. I still have them and enjoy reading the content once in awhile.

Do I feel bad about owning them? Of course not. No one is getting hurt and no one is making money from them. I dont believe they hurt the collectability of the MERP line either. The last few years have seen the prices for most MERP items on Ebay skyrocket. I myself have bought several MERP items for what I thought were decent prices so it is not like I dont plan on buying anymore of them just because I have the PDF.

Now if I was putting them all on disk and trying to sell the disk on Ebay for a profit, I would expect a severe ass-kicking for that.

Just wanted to add that those PDF's at Merp.com are still available.

mbassoc2003 wrote:

harami2000 wrote:There's a degree of truth in that, no doubt.
Whereas it might be hoped that the rarities might end up in collections there's a chance many copies will just be trashed. Was talking with someone recently who simply threw out their run of Trollcrushers, because they didn't like them, and casually gave away their first twenty-odd O&Ws.

So maybe I could PDF your rares?