The BIG Taboo!
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 712, 3, 4, 5, 67
Author

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8241
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Mar 05, 2022
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:13 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:
johnhuck wrote:I agree completely. What you really need to do is lower your sigths. Maybe a 3rd print woodgrain. Does anyone have one for sale? :oops:

:lol:

Heh. All I want from that auction are the ref sheets, so I won't bid you up to more than $1,500, Llaurenela. :o

*jk* :P


hey i am winning that auction - lemme alone - me wants it


Are we nearly there yet?

  


Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 189
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
Last Visit: Nov 22, 2012

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:20 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:
Llaurenela wrote:
What you call being a fool, many people call being honest. I have bought .pdfs at rpgnow, I won't do business with drivethrurpg, when I print something to use, I don't want the text obscured by a big prominent watermark and if I am going to do business with someone I don't appreciate being accused in advance without evidence of being crooked which is what the use of the watermark does.


I didn't write that quoted material, Jeff<gamersrest[FNG]> did. :) I have never actually purchased any pdfs(other that the Dragon Magazine Archive that is :P) and I have no desire to own them personally. :)


That was indeed me, just adding fuel to fire.

~jeff

  


Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 189
Joined: Dec 19, 2004
Last Visit: Nov 22, 2012

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 3:25 pm 
 

Llaurenela wrote:What you call being a fool, many people call being honest. I have bought .pdfs at rpgnow, I won't do business with drivethrurpg, when I print something to use, I don't want the text obscured by a big prominent watermark and if I am going to do business with someone I don't appreciate being accused in advance without evidence of being crooked which is what the use of the watermark does.


I am sorry, I did not mean to confuse you there.  My comment had nothing to do with honesty vs theft, just a note about scarcity vs value.  I personally place no monetary value on that which is not scarce.  As such I think buying .pdfs is silly.  Buying something like the Dragon Magazine Archive is different, as you are purchasing the physical artifact which is scarce, even if you are just buying it for the pdf files.

~jeff

  


Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:51 pm 
 

Marlith wrote:Do you need Acrobate Professional. I thought that allowed you to create PDF files that could be filled in. To just create PDF files I think all you need is the Standard Acrobat ($199.00) version. There is also a great little program called PDF995 that will allow you to create PDF files.

There's a great little program called CutePDF (google for it) that allows you to print any document to a virtual printer and redirect the output to a file in PDF format.  The best part is it works for all your applications, as it shows up as a local printer.  I don't recommend this for copyrighted works, such as ST1, however...  :?

 YIM  


Active Collector

Posts: 53
Joined: May 27, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 09, 2006
Location: OD&D and OAD&D DM somewhere north of Columbus OH

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:25 pm 
 

My apologies, I have corrected the quote in my post. I missed that it was not your comments and attributed it wrongly.

  


Active Collector

Posts: 53
Joined: May 27, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 09, 2006
Location: OD&D and OAD&D DM somewhere north of Columbus OH

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:26 pm 
 

GamersRest[FNG] wrote:
Llaurenela wrote:What you call being a fool, many people call being honest. I have bought .pdfs at rpgnow, I won't do business with drivethrurpg, when I print something to use, I don't want the text obscured by a big prominent watermark and if I am going to do business with someone I don't appreciate being accused in advance without evidence of being crooked which is what the use of the watermark does.


I am sorry, I did not mean to confuse you there. My comment had nothing to do with honesty vs theft, just a note about scarcity vs value. I personally place no monetary value on that which is not scarce. As such I think buying .pdfs is silly. Buying something like the Dragon Magazine Archive is different, as you are purchasing the physical artifact which is scarce, even if you are just buying it for the pdf files.

~jeff


I only go to a pdf when I can not find something at what I consider a fair price or at least on that I feel I can afford.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5686
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Dec 01, 2022
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:31 pm 
 

This is a lot of debate about yet another common sense issue. PDF's of copyrighted material are illegal and immoral. We all know that. If you decide to use a PDF of something you do not own, you are, by law, a criminal. Simple as that. Is it as serious as killing someone? No. Is it as serious as bilking a retired couple out of their life savings? Yes. Both crimes are forms of stealing, and there is no "degree" of stealing, you are either a thief or not. If you can live with it, fine. If not, don't do it.
The excuse of "it's only one PDF" or "everyone else does it" doesn't fly.


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

 WWW  


Collector

Posts: 6
Joined: Oct 02, 2005
Last Visit: Oct 06, 2005

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:46 pm 
 

I dont have an issue with PDF. I will use them no problem.

Love to those who hate :D

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 27, 2003
Last Visit: Aug 23, 2017
Location: Atop a heap of slain orcs

Post Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2005 11:37 pm 
 

Deadlord: That seems a bit much to me- since my grandparents have actually had their savings ripped off I have a pretty good idea of what constitutes stealing. I ain't no thief, and frankly it just isn't your place to label anybody immoral.

Perhaps your definition of "using" a pdf is different than mine- I just read the damn things, and I have NO intention of making money from them. Sheesh, if I like it enough I will buy a copy of the legit thing.

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector

Posts: 1900
Joined: Mar 26, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 01, 2022
Location: UK

Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:16 am 
 

I think the point Deadlord was making was that there is no grey area. And he's right - something cannot be a 'bit' illegal - it is or it isn't.
Degrees of how serious a crime is is very subjective (It's always worse if it happens to you!), but nevertheless a crime is a crime.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8241
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Mar 05, 2022
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 6:58 am 
 

RWilson wrote:Perhaps your definition of "using" a pdf is different than mine- I just read the damn things, and I have NO intention of making money from them. Sheesh, if I like it enough I will buy a copy of the legit thing.


i don't think DL 36 was out to insult anyone with his comment but his point was very strong and well made though.

PDF files are just the same as MP3's. you can look at it in whatever way you want, but its true.

do mp3's affect the music industry? theres your answer. pdf's are no different.

Al


Are we nearly there yet?

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector

Posts: 1271
Joined: Jan 09, 2005
Last Visit: Nov 17, 2020
Location: Azeroth

Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:56 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
RWilson wrote:Perhaps your definition of "using" a pdf is different than mine- I just read the damn things, and I have NO intention of making money from them. Sheesh, if I like it enough I will buy a copy of the legit thing.


i don't think DL 36 was out to insult anyone with his comment but his point was very strong and well made though.

PDF files are just the same as MP3's. you can look at it in whatever way you want, but its true.

do mp3's affect the music industry? theres your answer. pdf's are no different.

Al


Hope I don't offend anyone I buy things from with this  :)

I agree to a point. PDF files of current in print items will affect the gaming industry and I would hope that companies would try to find violaters selling their products they are currently producing and take all legal steps they can.

If an item is out of print it is not affecting the gaming industry. It is affecting the aftermarket resellers. Now it is still wrong but you can not compare someone selling a PDF file of a module that was printed 25 years ago, will not ever be reprinted, and is exceedingly rare and the average person could never hope to see to an MP3 of the latest Keith Urban song. To get it to that point you would have to have an MP3 of a studio cut of a Nina Simone song that was never recorded to vinyl, yet was still once made available somehow. The first affects the artist, the company and the industry. The second affects the collectibles market and the resller market.

Regardless it is still wrong. Just not the straw that will break the back of the gaming industry. It may in fact help current sales of direct retail products. If someone buys PDFs of out of print Forgotten Realms items they may eventually start buying paper copies of the new items. The reason being that unlike MP3s, copies of PDF files printed from a lser printer will never compare to owning the original.

Now will it hurt the aftermarket resellers. Some yes. Those selling mass produced items like the new Wizards items will feel the pinch. But then they can help their businesses by the selling of mid-range items and the premium ticket items which can allow for a greater margin.

Please understand I do not have it out for resellers. The number of items I buy on eBay indicates that. I do though think that the fact that PDF files of most items exist are not killing the market for most resellers though. Look at the price increases in most "collectible" items over the last few months. If you are trying to make a business selling in print gaming items on the web their is a lot of competition out there from the Amazons, Barnes & Noble etc and the fact that PDF files exist are not the thing that hurts the most I would expect.


Information Superhighway - A Rough Whimper of Insanity - Scott Hansen

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 125
Joined: Oct 27, 2003
Last Visit: Aug 23, 2017
Location: Atop a heap of slain orcs

Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:16 pm 
 

Yes, it is a good point and I don't have a problem with Deadlord....I have a quick temper and I responded rather offhandedly. Yes I agree it is illegal, and I have exactly two pdfs (OB3 and To the City of Brass) but that does not make me a thief, or immoral, nor was he calling me such as he does not know me specifically, it was a good point made in a general sense...that was my confusion, so no hard feelings anywhere.  :oops:  :lol:  :oops:  :lol:  :oops:  :lol:

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5686
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Dec 01, 2022
Location: New Hampsha

Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 12:23 pm 
 

I should have added that I personally don't give a crap if soemone uses PDF's or not. Not too long ago I made a serious attempt to put a stop to PDF sales on eBay, and I was met with less than lukewarm assistance from WoTC, so fuck 'em.


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

 WWW  


Active Collector

Posts: 53
Joined: May 27, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 09, 2006
Location: OD&D and OAD&D DM somewhere north of Columbus OH

Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:44 pm 
 

Heh, I have found that no matter what the topic is all you can expect from WOTC is lukewarm assistance at best and no response at all at worst. Customer service is definitely not their strong suit, and that is assuming that they have a strong suit.

  

User avatar

Prolific Collector

Posts: 851
Joined: Jun 12, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 03, 2022

Post Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:02 pm 
 

My current stance on owning PDF copies of books:

1. You must own the original item.

OR

It must be a PDF given away for free (for example, the free downloads that DrivethruRPG and RPGNow offer, or free downloads from websites such as Palladium).

2. You must not distribute the PDF to anyone else. Free items can be advertised, and the website of the owner may be given. Direct downloads from the site aren't recommended. (for example, if I wanted to let a friend know that Valley of the Pharohs was available for free, I could point them to The Cutting Room Floor so they could acquire the game, but doing a direct download to the PDF wouldn't be kosher. The sites put this stuff up hoping that you'll buy their new product after all.)

3. Ownership of a PDF of a licensed product entitles the owner to make one print copy for personal use only. Such copies are not to be given away or sold. The exception is a "fast play" product such as GURPS Lite, which can be printed up as many times as desired and given away, pursuant to their copyrights.

Now, I say that this is my current stance, because in my past, I have been a bad boy and have acquired some PDF's for which I don't own the hardcopy. The fact that I barely bother with the disc they're on doesn't make it right to have them though, as I don't have the original (although in some cases, I did own the original and got rid of it).



  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6834
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Dec 05, 2022
Location: UK

Post Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 5:06 am 
 

I make PDFs of the items I buy. I have found that the quality of PDFs available online (DrivethruRPG, RPGNow, etc.) scanned from products published pre-DTP, are pretty poor. I prefer a good quality product and I've found that a scanner and a copy of Acrobat used properly can produce results better than most online offerings. The bulk of my PDF collection is not available online, anyhow, as my interest is primarily in non-TSR OD&D and 1E.

I can see both sides of the moral debate, and appreciate the legal issues, but the threat of losing my collection to theft/fire/flood etc, and the threat of a product being lost to the collector community in general, outweigh the threat of me being prosecuted by the copyright owners.

Attrition will slowly make everything we own, rarer and also more valuable. Some unique items will disappear from the face of the earth, and others will disappear and resurface in 10 or 20 years. The uncommon, and less collected stuff will disappear faster than the more collectable and common items. Someone should be taking it upon themselves to archive these items and they pass, and I have taken it upon myself to archive the early non-TSR stuff, regardless of any moral or legal implication.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 751
Joined: Jun 29, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 09, 2020
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada, eh?

Post Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2005 11:15 am 
 

killjoy32 wrote:
RWilson wrote:Perhaps your definition of "using" a pdf is different than mine- I just read the damn things, and I have NO intention of making money from them. Sheesh, if I like it enough I will buy a copy of the legit thing.


i don't think DL 36 was out to insult anyone with his comment but his point was very strong and well made though.

PDF files are just the same as MP3's. you can look at it in whatever way you want, but its true.

do mp3's affect the music industry? theres your answer. pdf's are no different.

Al


The correlation isn't that direct. When I get an mp3, I'm getting the product in the form I want it in - something I can stick into my iPod and use. When I get a .pdf, I'm getting it in a signifigantly inferior form - something I can only use on my computer, or print out and have in a vastly inferior hardcopy.

No doubt, it's still morally and legally wrong to own PDFs of stuff you don't own a hardcopy of. Although I'm not sure it's theft, if it isn't, it's thus only because of technicalities - it's still a violation of copyright.

That being said, I've got pdfs and mp3s that I shouldn't have, and the moral implications don't keep me up at night.

 WWW  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 712, 3, 4, 5, 67