Llaurenela wrote:I don't think that pdfs make much if any difference in the market. If there is something within my budget range I will buy it and if there is not I just pray that there is a pdf available that I can buy.

No disrespect, but I think that you contradicted yourself in your first 2 statements.  :)   This is exactly why pdfs would hurt the market.  If you cant currently afford to buy an original then you would settle for a copy, and thus would never attempt to spend the money to buy an original. When yu end up having thousands of people buying copies and not the originals that is thousands less people who have a need or desire to have an original and therefore in the long will cause a decrease in price.

Llaurenela wrote:What is should be is that anything in constant use like Mickey Mouse has a copyright that runs for a neverending period as long as it stays in use and in print, but anything that goes out of print (like D&D books for instance) for a period of 5 years and 1 day creates a permanent transfer to the public domain. Copyright law should force copyright holders to keep their products available for sale in return for long copyright periods, no sale no copyright.

I could not disagree more with this stance. Why should a publishing company who has already paid millions of dollars to produce and print book(s), lose their right to make a profit on books that they have produced that they are not actively printing after 5 years?  This really doesn't specifically D&D becuase WOTC at this point clearly has have no desire to sell old product, but what about some other publishing company. For example lets say XYZ publishing company sells "How to" books, and they have a large overstock of books and due to decreasing sales they decide to avoid flooding the market with them that after the market cools down 6 years down the road, will start to sell them again.  Out of Print does not pertain to not selling any more, it means that they are no longer actively printing said book(s) and so why should they lose their ability to profit from that.  Hell, whos to say that WOTC sometime down the road does have a stash of OOP 1st edition product that they plan on selling? Its not very likely, but it is possible and under your proposed 5 years and a day copyright law, that would not be possible because of the fact that the market would already be flooded with copies and pdfs.  Just my $.02.

bclarkie wrote:

Llaurenela wrote:I don't think that pdfs make much if any difference in the market. If there is something within my budget range I will buy it and if there is not I just pray that there is a pdf available that I can buy.

No disrespect, but I think that you contradicted yourself in your first 2 statements.  This is exactly why pdfs would hurt the market. If you cant currently afford to buy an original then you would settle for a copy, and thus would never attempt to spend the money to buy an original. When yu end up having thousands of people buying copies and not the originals that is thousands less people who have a need or desire to have an original and therefore in the long will cause a decrease in price.

Ok explain to me how the fact that I can not afford to pay thousands of dollars for a first printing OD&D and selling me a pdf of a first printing would hurt the market. There are hundreds of thousands of people who can not afford to pay the price for a first printing OD&D and selling any of us a pdf will not affect the rich collectors who trade in those items. In fact you could put 100,000 reprints on the market of the 1st printing and there are still only 1000 1st printings in existence and still only the same pool of people that can afford to buy one either way. If I was someone who collected and $15,000 was pocket change, I might be interested in a reprint if I wanted to use it to play, but I would still be buying the rare items to hide away and no amount of pdfs or reprints would change that. For the hundreds of thousands of us that can't even swing the starting bid on an item on day one of a 7 day listing it is a moot point we are not bidding on those items anyway.  I will tell you another thing, if I have choice between a pdf and a not rare item I will pay up to about twice or maybe three times the cost of a pdf to get the not rare item, these are the things that typically bidding starts under a dollar and sell at $1.00 to about $10.00, but sometimes will go over $20.00. If things are priced over that I will get the pdf or if no pdf is not available then I will do without. If you buy stuff you can't afford at sucker prices then you are doing something that makes no sense. I will not attempt to buy something that starts out of my price range to begin with. That would be stupid on my part. I will pay up to about $50.00 for a 6th printing OD&D or about $60.00 for a 5th printing OD&D, anything over that is out of a reasonable range for me. I got my copies before this recent hyper inflation started. A 4th printing or lower will likely never be in my price range. So making a pdf or reprint available is only going to sell to people like me and that affects the market not a bit. I do not agree with you at all on this.

Llaurenela wrote:What is should be is that anything in constant use like Mickey Mouse has a copyright that runs for a neverending period as long as it stays in use and in print, but anything that goes out of print (like D&D books for instance) for a period of 5 years and 1 day creates a permanent transfer to the public domain. Copyright law should force copyright holders to keep their products available for sale in return for long copyright periods, no sale no copyright.

bclarkie wrote:I could not disagree more with this stance. Why should a publishing company who has already paid millions of dollars to produce and print book(s), lose their right to make a profit on books that they have produced that they are not actively printing after 5 years? This really doesn't specifically D&D becuase WOTC at this point clearly has have no desire to sell old product, but what about some other publishing company. For example lets say XYZ publishing company sells "How to" books, and they have a large overstock of books and due to decreasing sales they decide to avoid flooding the market with them that after the market cools down 6 years down the road, will start to sell them again. Out of Print does not pertain to not selling any more, it means that they are no longer actively printing said book(s) and so why should they lose their ability to profit from that. Hell, whos to say that WOTC sometime down the road does have a stash of OOP 1st edition product that they plan on selling? Its not very likely, but it is possible and under your proposed 5 years and a day copyright law, that would not be possible because of the fact that the market would already be flooded with copies and pdfs. Just my $.02.

I don't really care if it is actively printing or not as long as they have a stock that they are actively selling. BTW the only cost for OOP D&D is the printing cost, they sued away the just royalties to those products a long time ago. The fact is Gygax & Arneson should be getting a royalty for everything that is ever printed that has the D&D name on it including 3.5 and for that matter all of the d20 stuff anyone publishes. When a D&D 4.0 is published they should have a cut of that too.



Under your scenario about they would start reselling after the market cools down. Well how many years has it been since the three books were printed and sold. I think we can safely say that the market has cooled down and it is silly not to sell a grognard edition reprint for fans of the original game. To argue that that would hurt the price of the original items or hurt the sales of 3.5 does not hold any water with me. I flat out do not believe that there is any truth to it whatsoever.



That exact stance is why I keep reading that the market has declined from its peak, (yes, I know there are other strong factors, but this is also a strong factor)  I am sure that I am not the only one out here that wants to buy things that nobody is selling at a reasonable price that is in the average persons range. I do not agree with the stance that OD&D and other OOP items should only be available to those that make about 5-6 times what the average person makes. The average income person happens to be or could be the largest part of the market. Just because you don't make a lot of money doesn't mean you are too stupid to play a good rpg.  Even if I liked the current 3.5 D&D it is cost prohibitive to buy. I am not a fan of the hard back craze. I take care of things I own and a paperback cover will last me a long time. Printing it in hardback increases the cost quite a bit and it has no benefit for me. With the current business practice of WOTC and the soaring costs of the OOP items, the market will only continue to shrink. This may be of great benefit to the hardcore collectors in the upper income brackets who buy for investments and for whom price is not a factor, but it is at a great detriment to those average income people whose only interest is in playing the game.

Llaurenela wrote:. This may be of great benefit to the hardcore collectors in the upper income brackets who buy for investments and for whom price is not a factor, but it is at a great detriment to those average income people whose only interest is in playing the game.

i am about as far from the "upper income brackets" as you get really



i think PDF's and anything of the sort are just wrong. its a cheap imitation and just doesnt rub right, whether it helps someone who cant afford the item or not. there will always be things in life you cannot afford and you will always dream about. without that in life, what would a dream be?



there are plenty of things i cannot afford, but i will always watch and wait and one day, i will have my moment.



in the end, a PDF is just a photocopy and thats it. its just not right.



Al

I guess that is the difference between me and those like me. I don't buy things to collect, I buy them to play with and I treat them with kid gloves because I respect books, that is the way that I was raised. That is why I like rules lite games so that I can easily memorize the rules and I create cheats sheet of tables and such. But to buy something to hide it away from everyone and it sits in the dark. I personally would never buy something for that reason, no matter how much money I had.



As for pdfs, if that is the only thing I can buy then I will print it out and play with it. If you think I am wrong for wanting to play a great game and wrong for using a printed pdf file if that is my only option, then I reject your insult an am baffled by your attitude. I always prefer books. Given an honest price, I will always buy the book instead of the pdf. Given that I am not fortunate enough to make enough money that $15,000 or $20,000 is pocket change, some things I just can't buy. Unlike you I don't view that as a good thing. Achievable dreams are good things, unachievable dreams are a burden. But hey, I hear some people like pain in their lives, if having things that are out of your reach forever makes you happy then more power to you, it just doesn't have that effect on me, I don't find that to be a fun thing, especially when it is completely unnecessary.

Llaurenela wrote:
Ok explain to me how the fact that I can not afford to pay thousands of dollars for a first printing OD&D and selling me a pdf of a first printing would hurt the market. There are hundreds of thousands of people who can not afford to pay the price for a first printing OD&D and selling any of us a pdf will not affect the rich collectors who trade in those items. In fact you could put 100,000 reprints on the market of the 1st printing and there are still only 1000 1st printings in existence and still only the same pool of people that can afford to buy one either way.

You are incorrect, the 100k reprints if they are a physical artifact would cause overall prices to drop, if they were in similar form as the original.  If they were in a "compilation" style book that could easily be distinguished from the originals then it would effect the market less, but it would still effect the market.  I cannot readily afford, in cash, the high end items, but I have credit which would enable me to buy any of the high end items if I so choose.  Value of an item is largely impacted by scarcity.

Llaurenela wrote:If I was someone who collected and $15,000 was pocket change, I might be interested in a reprint if I wanted to use it to play, but I would still be buying the rare items to hide away and no amount of pdfs or reprints would change that.

Hmmph, hyperbole aside, if 15k is pocket change then you probally care little for market forces and would be better off paying someone else to take the required steps to further your collection.  This kind of example does not reflect the market, or the current actors in the market.  Few if any of us fall in this group of ultra rich collectors.

Llaurenela wrote:For the hundreds of thousands of us that can't even swing the starting bid on an item on day one of a 7 day listing it is a moot point we are not bidding on those items anyway. I will tell you another thing, if I have choice between a pdf and a not rare item I will pay up to about twice or maybe three times the cost of a pdf to get the not rare item, these are the things that typically bidding starts under a dollar and sell at $1.00 to about $10.00, but sometimes will go over $20.00. If things are priced over that I will get the pdf or if no pdf is not available then I will do without.

.pdf forms of damn near every TSR item are already out there FOR FREE, you just have to be willing to violate copyright law to get them.  If you pay for a .pdf then you are a fool in my opinion (note I have bought pdfs from drivethrurpg so yes I am a bit of a fool).

Llaurenela wrote:If you buy stuff you can't afford at sucker prices then you are doing something that makes no sense. I will not attempt to buy something that starts out of my price range to begin with. That would be stupid on my part.

 



Supply and demand rule the market, "sucker prices" would be those set by people who wish to prey on the uninformed (creep comes to mind).  But the prices on ebay currently reflect the demand accruately (though supply in sometimes in question).

Llaurenela wrote:I will pay up to about $50.00 for a 6th printing OD&D or about $60.00 for a 5th printing OD&D, anything over that is out of a reasonable range for me. I got my copies before this recent hyper inflation started. A 4th printing or lower will likely never be in my price range. So making a pdf or reprint available is only going to sell to people like me and that affects the market not a bit. I do not agree with you at all on this.

Those would be nice finds at those prices, they do not reflect the market however.  The availability of the 6th print pdf has not effected the market, it is freely distributed,  I should point out at this point that I do not believe pdfs hurt the market, but re-prints do have an effect, pdfs are not scarce and as such have little to no value.  And as a collector I prefer to have the artifact itself over a collections of magnetically recorded 1s and 0s.

Llaurenela wrote:I don't really care if it is actively printing or not as long as they have a stock that they are actively selling. BTW the only cost for OOP D&D is the printing cost, they sued away the just royalties to those products a long time ago. The fact is Gygax & Arneson should be getting a royalty for everything that is ever printed that has the D&D name on it including 3.5 and for that matter all of the d20 stuff anyone publishes. When a D&D 4.0 is published they should have a cut of that too.

That would depend on thier contracts, and whether or not they held the copyrights or if TSR held them.

Llaurenela wrote:Under your scenario about they would start reselling after the market cools down. Well how many years has it been since the three books were printed and sold. I think we can safely say that the market has cooled down and it is silly not to sell a grognard edition reprint for fans of the original game. To argue that that would hurt the price of the original items or hurt the sales of 3.5 does not hold any water with me. I flat out do not believe that there is any truth to it whatsoever.

Producing two or more competing rules sets would hurt Hasbro/WotC, it would split the market for the game.  A bad fiscal move.  So it would indeed hurt them if they reprinted.  As for a third party hurting them, it would simply be competition for the same discretionary cash, which could help or hinder sales, there is no way to predict this.

Llaurenela wrote:That exact stance is why I keep reading that the market has declined from its peak, (yes, I know there are other strong factors, but this is also a strong factor) I am sure that I am not the only one out here that wants to buy things that nobody is selling at a reasonable price that is in the average persons range. I do not agree with the stance that OD&D and other OOP items should only be available to those that make about 5-6 times what the average person makes. The average income person happens to be or could be the largest part of the market. Just because you don't make a lot of money doesn't mean you are too stupid to play a good rpg. Even if I liked the current 3.5 D&D it is cost prohibitive to buy. I am not a fan of the hard back craze. I take care of things I own and a paperback cover will last me a long time. Printing it in hardback increases the cost quite a bit and it has no benefit for me. With the current business practice of WOTC and the soaring costs of the OOP items, the market will only continue to shrink. This may be of great benefit to the hardcore collectors in the upper income brackets who buy for investments and for whom price is not a factor, but it is at a great detriment to those average income people whose only interest is in playing the game.

I believe due to the scarcity of the artifacts for sale that most go for a "reasonable price", they sell for market value. The collecting market is as close to a true free market economy as one can get.  Just because you are not able to currently afford the prices does not make them unreasonable, it just means you do not place them same value on owning the items.



~jeff[/quote]

Llaurenela wrote:Exactly and one major reform of copyright law is to change it so that only authors can hold copyright to a work. Businesses/Corporations should be forbidden to hold copyrights. I do not believe that in house workers should have no rights to their creative work. The person or persons that write something should hold the copyrights and corporations should rent the use for a maximum of 5 years at a time and it should be renogotiated every 5 years. This would go a long way to curbing the current abuses. The author of something is more interested in selling his work to as many people as possible.

You have to agree to a contract in order for someone other than yourself to hold copyright to your creative works, why should it be forbidden to do this?  Why should writers not be able to sell thier efforts and works to a corporate entity, or for a corporate entity to buy or contract the works of writers?  



~jeff

saying that tho...like a few of the ppl on here....you can get some more rare items cheaper...just that their conditions are not as good. but hey, you would still have them!



johnhuck has his woody 3rd up which is a bit mullered, but then, there is no chance whatsoever i could compete with the big guns for one of them, or even afford it anyway, so this one will do me just fine as its more in my price range. that the box is mullered? so what....at least i will have one. having one is far better than not having one.



thats kinda the view i have with things. work at it slowly, and if youre canny enough, you will get there.



Al

killjoy32 wrote:saying that tho...like a few of the ppl on here....you can get some more rare items cheaper...just that their conditions are not as good. but hey, you would still have them!

You can also get lucky and find cheap rare items at yard sales, estate sales, used book stores, etc.

bclarkie wrote:Heh, I know of a Canadian buyer who just happend to find a pretty nice Lost Caverns of Tsojconth at a used book store for $1.99.

Sure, DRIVE the stake through my heart, would ya.