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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:39 am 
 

The good way to never get burned is not to buy stuff for the investment value, but to collect the stuff for your own personel enjoyment.  If you are collecting RPG items in hopes of a good return you will get burned!!

Save your growth for traditional investments and leave the D&D stuff for the collectors who just want to keep the stuff..

Just my 2 cents

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 12:44 pm 
 

I think long-term paper will cease to exist as a medium.  Everything will be in digital format.  8O  8O  8O .

What's this mean for the paper products from the "past".  Only hard-core collectors will have any desire to have them and only the rare ones will be worth anything.  The rest will be essentially worthless since people will consider the paper versions to be "archaic".  

It's already starting.

Think of phonograpic records as an example...

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:20 pm 
 

dbartman wrote:I think long-term paper will cease to exist as a medium.  Everything will be in digital format.  8O  8O  8O .

What's this mean for the paper products from the "past".  Only hard-core collectors will have any desire to have them and only the rare ones will be worth anything.  The rest will be essentially worthless since people will consider the paper versions to be "archaic".  

It's already starting.

Think of phonograpic records as an example...

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You're right of course, eventually paper will cease to exist as a medium, but we'll still need some for other purposes.  Ever try to wipe your behind with a PDF?  Not recommended.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:28 pm 
 

dbartman wrote:I think long-term paper will cease to exist as a medium.  Everything will be in digital format.  8O  8O  8O .

What's this mean for the paper products from the "past".  Only hard-core collectors will have any desire to have them and only the rare ones will be worth anything.  The rest will be essentially worthless since people will consider the paper versions to be "archaic".  

It's already starting.

Think of phonograpic records as an example...

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You have to be careful with vast oversimplifications like the above (don't worry, I'm guilty as much as anyone).  For something to become obsolete (records), a new technology has to come along that is both vastly superior, cheaper, and easier to use (CDs).  Thinks quill pens vs ball points, pages of the Sears catalog instead of toilet paper, etc.  I did a long study while I was in college of music media and the changes in recording through the years since rock n roll started (from records, 8-track, cassette, cd, and now digital which was not available when I did the study).  What you learn is that experts love to proclaim the "Death of Vinyl" or whatever, but what eventually drives the market is either the public.  This is why cassettes, an audio medium vastly inferior to all the others (even 8-track, actually). survived so long, they are convenient and cheap to use, and you could record your own songs and albums.  This is why I laugh when I see news reports proclaiming "The Death of the CD" or "The Death of the VHS tape".  Reports of such are greatly exaggerated, and the fact that households still have hundreds of each leads one to believe the death of both media forms is far off.
       What does this tell us about our favorite hobby, or about paper products in general?  Don't go burning your books.  Although ebooks and digital copies are available of many if not most written works, as of right now there still does not exist a format for comfortably, cheaply and easily reading a work of fiction besides the paperback or hardback.  Has anyone here either read or tried to read a book (an entire book, not just a story, module, article) on a computer screen? Or even using one of the handheld formats that can hold ebooks? It's tedious, uncomfortable, and does not have the VISCERAL satisfaction of actually reading a book.  (BTW, you could write an entire research paper on why online delivery grocers failed, and they one thing every researcher came up with is that grocery shopping is a "hands on" procedure that most people are loath to give up even if cheaper groceries can be had by ordering online with delivery to your door).   I consider this much like actually "reading" a book.  The sensory effect of reading an actual book is not unpleasant, and SO FAR cannot be replicated by any technology that is cheaper, easier or more comfortable to the reader.  As a matter of fact, all handheld storage items that can contain written works have basically been considered flops in the marketplace; besides a certain segment of society that enjoys being able to carry dozens of books in a handheld device, it's audience is very limited.
    Now the that the popularity of the Ipod and digital music files are skyrocketing, don't take the wrong impression here.  Digital files and listening to music on headphones with thousands of songs in a tiny format is SUPERIOR to past technology in many ways.  To this point, a superior technology does not exist for reading literature outside of conventional books.  It may be invented tomorrow, in the next ten years, or in a century (maybe something the size of an ipod that can store every book ever written and automatically scrolls by adjusting to your eyespeed).  
             Oh, and don't forget, something my technology obsessed friend discovered when he converted his entire musical library to digital on his computer, sold almost his entire collection of CDs because he "didn't need them anymore, I can burn a copy of anything I want", and then suffered a computer meltdown, it's nice to have those old fashioned, archaic "backups" stored nearby, whether they be pulp magazines, D&D modules, music CDs or paperbacks.
                  Interesting subject though.  How long before digital only releases of RPG products become the norm?
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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 2:43 pm 
 

dbartman wrote:It's already starting.

Think of phonograpic records as an example...

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Phonographs redundant?  And just when I've recently started buying vinyl again.

Seems that all technologies since vinyl have sacrificed sound quality at the altar of miniaturisation.  OK vinyl isn't perfect and degrades every time it is played.  And my hearing probably isn't up to picking up the differences between analogue and a digital format.  But there's something about a good old fashioned vinyl record and its crackles that just can't be beat.

I don't want something that stores every piece of music I've ever wanted to hear.  And I don't want a portable device which stores every book I ever want to read.  Too much choice.  Not good.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:32 pm 
 

johnhuck wrote:
dbartman wrote:It's already starting.

Think of phonograpic records as an example...

Comments?

Phonographs redundant?  And just when I've recently started buying vinyl again.

Seems that all technologies since vinyl have sacrificed sound quality at the altar of miniaturisation.  OK vinyl isn't perfect and degrades every time it is played.  And my hearing probably isn't up to picking up the differences between analogue and a digital format.  But there's something about a good old fashioned vinyl record and its crackles that just can't be beat.

I don't want something that stores every piece of music I've ever wanted to hear.  And I don't want a portable device which stores every book I ever want to read.  Too much choice.  Not good.
]


Actuall, most audiophiles consider vinyl the most pristine sound, although from experience you really need a fine ear for music and a $10k stereo and phonograph system to prove it.  Myself, I can pick out the differences only when heavily coached on what to listen for.  And, interestingly enough, it's been discovered that CD sound degrades over time even worst than vinyl or tape.  Many of the first CDs made now sound awful, and the expected shelf life of this medium may only be 20 years or so (whereas vinyl or reel to reel tape seems to last forever).

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Post Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:32 am 
 

Thought I would also add for everyone here. As a photogrpaher I take interest and will offer the information that. It has also been found that Digital Photos over a matter of time degrade also.

To seriously save your precious photos and such, you should be backing them up on a CD. So you should always keep a photo set up of, 1: CD with them. 2: a Back up CD burent at a seperate time within a few weeks. 3: Print them with a photo printer in a decent size 5X7 and store them. Or keep a set on a backup harddrive.

They will degrade on a harddrive. But with a backup of double CD's and burn them new every 6 months to a year. You should be able to keep them until they improve the media or a new thing comes out.

And yup Cd's are about a 20 year life, So be sure to reburn them about every 5 years at max.


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 8:56 am 
 

Ogreden wrote:Thought I would also add for everyone here. As a photogrpaher I take interest and will offer the information that. It has also been found that Digital Photos over a matter of time degrade also.

To seriously save your precious photos and such, you should be backing them up on a CD. So you should always keep a photo set up of, 1: CD with them. 2: a Back up CD burent at a seperate time within a few weeks. 3: Print them with a photo printer in a decent size 5X7 and store them. Or keep a set on a backup harddrive.

They will degrade on a harddrive. But with a backup of double CD's and burn them new every 6 months to a year. You should be able to keep them until they improve the media or a new thing comes out.

And yup Cd's are about a 20 year life, So be sure to reburn them about every 5 years at max.

Well this certainly isn't good news for me. I have a music CD collection of over 400 CD's. Nothing like finding out you may just pissed away $5000.00.... :(


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Post Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2005 10:20 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:Well this certainly isn't good news for me. I have a music CD collection of over 400 CD's. Nothing like finding out you may just pissed away $5000.00.... :(


Likewise, I have a CD collection of about the same size. I've converted them all to mp3s though, so I can listen to them in the car etc. (I don't have a CD player in the car.) So my CDs never get played, but they are there as a backup should I ever need them. I'd probably recover my money if I sold them on eBay too.

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 3:41 pm 
 

Hot off the press.  Cougar's photocopy auctions have just finished. I particularly like the way he doesn't employ a proxy bidding system.  The question I'd be asking myself if I had bought PotVQ for £28 is "could I have got it for £6?"  :lol:

Palace of the Vampire Queen Wee warriors OD&D      £1   Gareth C      Mark S  £2             Mark  H  £3        Grome  £5      Ian  D&D   £28
Dwarven Glory Wee Warriors   OD&D                         £1   Gareth C        Mark S    £2            Grome   £4              Ian  D&D   £26
The Misty Isles  Wee warriors   OD&D                        £1   Gareth C            Grome   £4                                     Ian   D&D     £26
ST1 Up the Garden Path adv 4-7th, AD&D        Mark S   £4         Gareth C     £13               Dand DP  £42           Ian D&D  £48
The Jade hare   D&D adv                              usually     WT   £2                  Grome   £4            Dand DP  £5
RPGA 1 Rahasia RPGA D&D  adv  1-2                        Paul W  £2           Grome   £4            Gareth C   £5
RPGA 2  Black Opal  Eye       adv   2-3                        Mark H  £6      Gareth C  £8
RPGA 3 The forgotten king  adv  4-7th  AD&D            Paul W  £2           Grome   £4          Mark  H  £5
RPGA 4;                                 Elixir of Life           4-7                   Paul W  £2            Grome   £4          Mark  H  £5
R 1 To the aid of Falx RPGA adv AD&D 5-9th              Mark  S  £4      WT   £6     Dan DP   £6        Pete  W  £7
R 2 The investigation of Hydell RPGA AD&D adv 5th     Mark S  £3                      Dan DP   £6               Ian  D&D  £15
R 3 The Egg of the Phoenix  RPGA  AD&D  adv 5-9th     Mark  S    £3                    Dan DP  £6      Mike Mud  £7
R 4 Doc's Island RPGA  AD&D adv 6-10th                        Dan DP  £6   Mark H  £4
B3 orange version Palace of Silver Princess     D&D         Mark  S  £3   Dan DP  £5
DCC# 3.5 haunted lighthouse Goodman games   adv,      And  W    £1       Gary  K   £4

  

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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 11:29 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:

Do PDF files damage the Dungeons & Dragons collectables market?


I don't think so. As others have stated, I think that those who are forced for financial or other reasons to settle for a PDF are not going to be the ones bidding hundreds or thousands of dollars on an original anyway. For example, my budget is very tight with school and everything else. I can't afford a mint orange copy of B3 no matter how much I want it. So the existence or availability of the PDF makes no difference to me in a sense of the worth of B3 because either way I'm not going to the bidding on it.

If you like PDFs or hate these thieving b*st*rds, or don't even care, post a response.


As far as copyright, I say **** 'em! If WOTC is concerned about copyrights, then let them re-release the old stuff in either WELL DONE pdf format (not like some of the crap I've seen) or just reprint them. If they don't, they're not making money off it anyway, so who cares if someone is selling a PDF of it? WOTC makes no money off the secondary market anyway.


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:36 am 
 

Interestingly, I was just discussing this with a friend off-line after posting my last message, and the subject came up. It made me think of another angle.

Sometimes I'll see an old AD&D item on ebay and I kinda want to bid on it, but I'm hesitant to spend the big bucks because I'm not sure I'll like it. For example, I ended up putting off bidding on S1-4 Realms of Horror because I'm just not sure about the contents. Sure, I have S1 and S2 and S4 and all that. But what does the supermodule itself actually look like inside?  :?

Getting it in PDF format to look over may get me excited enough to buy it. Because bottom line, if it looks good, I want a real live hardcopy in my hands, and I want an original, not something printed out at Kinko's from a PDF file. So viewing a PDF increases my chances of putting in a higher bid on that item.

So for me at least, being able to get a hold of some of the rarer stuff in PDF only increases the likelihood that I'll break the budget and put in an outrageous bid to get an original.

Just my 50¢ or so.  :wink:


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:02 am 
 

Halaster Blackcloak wrote:Interestingly, I was just discussing this with a friend off-line after posting my last message, and the subject came up. It made me think of another angle.

Sometimes I'll see an old AD&D item on ebay and I kinda want to bid on it, but I'm hesitant to spend the big bucks because I'm not sure I'll like it. For example, I ended up putting off bidding on S1-4 Realms of Horror because I'm just not sure about the contents. Sure, I have S1 and S2 and S4 and all that. But what does the supermodule itself actually look like inside? :?

Getting it in PDF format to look over may get me excited enough to buy it. Because bottom line, if it looks good, I want a real live hardcopy in my hands, and I want an original, not something printed out at Kinko's from a PDF file. So viewing a PDF increases my chances of putting in a higher bid on that item.

So for me at least, being able to get a hold of some of the rarer stuff in PDF only increases the likelihood that I'll break the budget and put in an outrageous bid to get an original.

Just my 50¢ or so. :wink:


For S1-4 Realms of Horror you could buy a PDF from svgames.com.


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 14, 2005 4:24 am 
 

i'm not sure viewing it in PDF first would enhance your willingness to then part with your £ / $ for an item.

i now have 3 S1-4's and i think personally they look great. but then i like T1-4 and A1-4 and certainly GDQ1-7. my preference will ALWAYS be the original copy, such as G1, G2 and G3, instead of G1-2-3. I always liked the way the mono mods looked...they just look great to me, but thats not to say the supermod is worse, i just like the original better.

i remember years ago, a friend of mine worked in HMV (music shop for those who dont know)....they have whats called "listening posts", where you can go check out CD release. HE said that in the whole scheme of things, it didnt really make that much difference to sales.

the same argument came up in relation to MP3's. sure, ppl will grab em and then maybe go and buy the actual release. well er no they dont (or hardly - i do mind but then i like collecting the real thing)....now they sell MP3 tracks and get around it that way so thats ok....

DVD's / Video's and all the rest fall in the same way.

each to their own tho...if i want something, i just go get it. if i dont like it, i will just sell it on, so its no biggie in the end.

just my pennies worth... Al



  

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:38 am 
 

Halaster Blackcloak wrote:Getting it in PDF format to look over may get me excited enough to buy it.


This could work in the opposite way though. For example, you get a PDF copy of a rare item you're seriously considering going for and find out that it looks like crap, so you put off buying that collectible in lieu of another and never end up buying it, when you might've even overpaid for the item before you knew what it really looked like.



Halaster Blackcloak wrote:As far as copyright, I say **** 'em! If WOTC is concerned about copyrights, then let them re-release the old stuff in either WELL DONE pdf format (not like some of the crap I've seen) or just reprint them. If they don't, they're not making money off it anyway, so who cares if someone is selling a PDF of it? WOTC makes no money off the secondary market anyway.


I have to agree with Mr. Cloak here, though. Make the item available so I can pay you for it or leave me and my .pdfs alone!



Edit: Wow, didn't realize how old this thread is.  I actually found the page in a search engine and started reading...and then replying.


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Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:23 pm 
 

Old thread :P  But still a good topic.



Imo, PDFs have next to no impact on the big-ticket items. Anyone paying $200 (let alone $1500) for a book obviously doesn't want the PDF version. They're a collector, and they want the original.



On the tangental topic that's come up - PDFs and copyrights.. well, that's a black and white area legally speaking, but a lot of folks (myself included) like to think there's a fuzzy grey area. The fact is that it's highly unlikely WotC will ever enforce their legal rights, and prosecute small-time PDF sellers. If someone is buying a copy of G1, WotC isn't making any money off of the sale - whether that's a paper copy or a digital one. There's not much incentive for them to throw a lot of money around to protect their copyright, when they're not profiting from the effort.



I'm not a huge fan of PDFs, but I use them occasionally. Reading the PDF has led me to buy books, no question. I'm old-fashioned enough to believe in supporting the companies that make products I like to use, so I buy books on a regular basis. And, well, having the book is just more enjoyable ;)



As for migration away from paper, I think Mike hit on it perfectly - paper will remain as the dominant medium as long as there is no better technology available. If I could get a little headpiece that would project the image of books onto my eye, and could use that without eye strain or signifigant effort, then sure, I'd consider switchign to that from paper. If "tablet PC's" get advanced enough (as I expect they will) to generate an 8.5"x11" image that's easy to read and easily portable, sure, I might try those. But until that day, which I don't forsee coming anytime soon, paper will stick around.

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Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:24 pm 
 

GraysonAC wrote:Old thread :P But still a good topic.





As for migration away from paper, I think Mike hit on it perfectly - paper will remain as the dominant medium as long as there is no better technology available. If I could get a little headpiece that would project the image of books onto my eye, and could use that without eye strain or signifigant effort, then sure, I'd consider switchign to that from paper. If "tablet PC's" get advanced enough (as I expect they will) to generate an 8.5"x11" image that's easy to read and easily portable, sure, I might try those. But until that day, which I don't forsee coming anytime soon, paper will stick around.




I'm running a campaign right now using the "Against the Giants: Liberation of Geoff" Greyhawk module.  I have a PDF of it, which I use to cut and paste descriptions, print out maps, etc.  But the first week I ran the adventure, I felt uncomfortable without a physical module in my lap to refer to, just using the notes I printed from the PDF.  So the next session, I brought my "real" copy of Against the Giants, and everything felt alright again!  Not that I even referred to it more than once or twice, guess I'm just a dinosaur though.  

   BTW I now have a system where I can pull all three 2nd edition core reference books (PHB, DMG, MM) up on my laptop from the Core rules 2.0 CD, which sits on a chair beside me at the table, all at the same time in their own little window, and for me at least it's vastly faster and superior to thumbing through the books to find a rule, monster stat or spell.  So I'm not a total Luddite I figure. Hell, my co-gamers won't even use cool pre-printed character sheets, they still use laboriously hand copied pencil written sheets, which takes forever to update when you have a party full of 10-12 level characters, but they don't care.



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Post Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:07 pm 
 

I don't think that pdfs make much if any difference in the market. If there is something within my budget range I will buy it and if there is not I just pray that there is a pdf available that I can buy. The only things I really want will never be within my price range and they will never be available on pdf either :(   And the thing is, is that I don't even care if it is an original or a pdf or a reprint. If WOTC would issue a reprint of printing 1-4 of OD&D, the first two printing of each supplement and all of the other stuff printed pre 1977 I would buy all of them if offered at a price I can afford. Since I will never be able to afford the thousands of dollars the originals would cost and WOTC doesn't have the marketing smarts to do reprints, I would gladly buy a pdf or a kinko copy even if it were available. I am not interested in violating copyrights, but if you can't buy something without mortgaging an expensive home then you can not be too concerned about it, but it is a moot point since those items I mentioned are not going to be offered in any way (legal or illegal) that I could ever buy them anyway.



It is really a shame that WOTC is run by a bunch of incompetent bunglers. They could easily make a few hundred dollars off of me over a 3 year period if they would reprint things that I want to buy. Then I have two 13 yrs who will want a copy. And I have 11 other people in my gaming group who would also buy copies.  That is about $2500.00 they could make off just one little group of friends. I want the info to play with not collect to resell or store in a vault. $15,000 for an original or $10.00 for a reprint, an easy choice for me. At the very least if WOTC were smart they would be selling well made pdfs of every thing TSR/WOTC has ever published.



It is really a shame the way the copyright law is written. What is should be is that anything in constant use like Mickey Mouse has a copyright that runs for a neverending period as long as it stays in use and in print, but anything that goes out of print (like D&D books for instance) for a period of 5 years and 1 day creates a permanent transfer to the public domain. Copyright law should force copyright holders to keep their products available for sale in return for long copyright periods, no sale no copyright.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:11 am 
 

Llaurenela wrote:
It is really a shame that WOTC is run by a bunch of incompetent bunglers. They could easily make a few hundred dollars off of me over a 3 year period if they would reprint things that I want to buy.




Honestly, I couldn't disagree more. WoTC is run by some very smart people. Folks who would buy reprints of old stuff are a small minority. Very, very small would be my guess. I'd buy some myself, but I don't think many folks would. It's hard enough to make money selling books, trying to sell to a small corner of your niche market isn't a good business deciison.



WoTC doesn't fragment it's own market by offering multiple editions of D&D at a time. They want folks using 3rd Edition, and that's all they'll sell until 4th Edition comes along. They increase the number of folks that can produce stuff by using the d20 license, which grows the hobby with almost no work on their part. Extremely smart move, and something TSR never would have done. TSR failed from a business perspective - they put too much faith in modules particularily. WoTC has avoided that, and stuck to selling the core books.



PDFs are a losing market as well - file sharing makes them almost worthless. It'd be an easy thing for them to produce, sure, but it would make them almost no money, and they wouldn't offer PDFs and hard copies of the books.

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:35 am 
 

GraysonAC wrote:
Llaurenela wrote:
It is really a shame that WOTC is run by a bunch of incompetent bunglers. They could easily make a few hundred dollars off of me over a 3 year period if they would reprint things that I want to buy.




Honestly, I couldn't disagree more. WoTC is run by some very smart people. Folks who would buy reprints of old stuff are a small minority. Very, very small would be my guess. I'd buy some myself, but I don't think many folks would. It's hard enough to make money selling books, trying to sell to a small corner of your niche market isn't a good business deciison.



WoTC doesn't fragment it's own market by offering multiple editions of D&D at a time. They want folks using 3rd Edition, and that's all they'll sell until 4th Edition comes along. They increase the number of folks that can produce stuff by using the d20 license, which grows the hobby with almost no work on their part. Extremely smart move, and something TSR never would have done. TSR failed from a business perspective - they put too much faith in modules particularily. WoTC has avoided that, and stuck to selling the core books.



PDFs are a losing market as well - file sharing makes them almost worthless. It'd be an easy thing for them to produce, sure, but it would make them almost no money, and they wouldn't offer PDFs and hard copies of the books.




Well they don't make any money off of me the way it is. I bought the 3rd ed core books, looked at them and found out that it is so rules heavy that it takes hours to create a character, so I got rid of it. There was nothing in the core books worth porting back to AD&D. So when 4th ed comes out I won't even take a look because I have no interest in rules heavy and I am sure I am not the only one out there. There is no proof whatsoever that people who like a fast easy to play game are a small niche. I discovered OD&D this spring and it is a breath of fresh air. Time to create a new character 5 min tops. A little more if you want to rough in a background and then play. Time to prepare to DM a game, as much as you want to take or zero if you want to fly by the seat of your pants and either works equally well. I have no interest in d20, I won't waste my money on it. C&C looks promising and some of the new Gygax involved products are good, but the bottom line is for me it all gets ported back to AD&D or OD&D. It will not get played as is.



Personally if you like what WOTC is putting out right now and you actually think that no one except a few idiots like me would buy a rules light easy to play fun game then your opinion doesn't seem to been based on anything factual to me. A lot of people want to claim that we are a niche market, but until there is a product to buy that is rules light and good, like OD&D it is just your theory not the truth.

  
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