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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 4:21 am 
 

KingOfPain wrote:Maybe the mod should lock the thread since there really is no debate on the original post any longer. :idea:

I have to disagree. I started the thread to find out what peoples opinions were on PDFs and I can't ignore the legal issues surrounding them.

I do see that there may be an impact on the current sales line of WoTC, but as to the sales of 'collectables' as the majority of us here understand them, I think there has been no impact on the market.

OB3 has been available free from WoTC for the past four years and the price of an original is astronomical, and ST1 has been available free on Kazaa for just as long. The Dragon Magazine Archive is going up in price, and the magazines themeselves are not depreciating.

All moral and legal issues aside, I don't think we can rely on the copyright holders of ST1 and other more bazaar and remote publications like Owl & Weasel or Lair of the Spider Mother to prevent the product disappearing into history unrecorded. If someone doesn't PDF them, sooner or later they will be gone.


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:22 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote: OB3 has been available free from WoTC for the past four years and the price of an original is astronomical,


:?: Ok I have to know. Not familiar with OB3. Can't find it on the TSR archive. Sorry for go off topic for a moment but I am just not familiar with that particular item. :oops:


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:38 am 
 

Marlith wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote: OB3 has been available free from WoTC for the past four years and the price of an original is astronomical,


:?: Ok I have to know. Not familiar with OB3. Can't find it on the TSR archive. Sorry for go off topic for a moment but I am just not familiar with that particular item. :oops:


Orange B3. the original edition of the "Palace of the silver princess" :D :D

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 6:40 am 
 

Marlith wrote::?: Ok I have to know. Not familiar with OB3. Can't find it on the TSR archive. Sorry for go off topic for a moment but I am just not familiar with that particular item. :oops:

As opposed to oC1 & oC2 (although with oB3 you could read that as "orange" as well as "original").

mbassoc2003 wrote:...I think there has been no impact on the market.

OB3 has been available free from WoTC for the past four years and the price of an original is astronomical, and ST1 has been available free on Kazaa for just as long. The Dragon Magazine Archive is going up in price, and the magazines themeselves are not depreciating.

Good to have you back, Ian. Hope you weren't having too many nightmares 'bout missed ST1 £5 BINs and suchlike. ;)

Well, of those three, oB3 decreased when the free pdf was released (although that was possibly a market adjustment for what is still a somewhat overvalued item) and the mid-range Dragon magazines plummeted to near zero when the Archive was released.
ST1 is just plain mad... :D

mbassoc2003 wrote:All moral and legal issues aside, I don't think we can rely on the copyright holders of ST1 and other more bazaar and remote publications like Owl & Weasel or Lair of the Spider Mother to prevent the product disappearing into history unrecorded. If someone doesn't PDF them, sooner or later they will be gone.

There's a degree of truth in that, no doubt.
Whereas it might be hoped that the rarities might end up in collections there's a chance many copies will just be trashed. Was talking with someone recently who simply threw out their run of Trollcrushers, because they didn't like them, and casually gave away their first twenty-odd O&Ws.

  

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:57 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:There's a degree of truth in that, no doubt.
Whereas it might be hoped that the rarities might end up in collections there's a chance many copies will just be trashed. Was talking with someone recently who simply threw out their run of Trollcrushers, because they didn't like them, and casually gave away their first twenty-odd O&Ws.

So maybe I could PDF your rares? :wink:  :lol:  :lol:


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:02 pm 
 

KingOfPain wrote:I am not going to make too serious of a post here because 1) I dont have the necessary knowledge of federal law to really make any specific argument, and 2) I am guilty of breaking those laws from time to time. :wink:

The two cents I did want to put in were simply that I dont think that having .PDF's of current and out-of-print items is a major issue as it pertains to the market price of the actual item. The only example I can really make is I.C.E.'s MERP line. Several years ago, almost all of the MERP items were available for download for free on News — MERP .com Middle-earth Role Playing Tolkien RPG Community Website. They were eventually pulled because of licensing issues. I believe that the owners of the website thought the PDF's were legal because Iron Crown no longer existed but I dont have all the details. Basically they were asked to cease and desist or face a lawsuit. I had spent a good amount of time downloading the entirety of the MERP titles available along with thousands of other people before they were pulled from the site. I still have them and enjoy reading the content once in awhile.

Do I feel bad about owning them? Of course not. No one is getting hurt and no one is making money from them. I dont believe they hurt the collectability of the MERP line either. The last few years have seen the prices for most MERP items on Ebay skyrocket. I myself have bought several MERP items for what I thought were decent prices so it is not like I dont plan on buying anymore of them just because I have the PDF.

Now if I was putting them all on disk and trying to sell the disk on Ebay for a profit, I would expect a severe ass-kicking for that. :twisted:

Just wanted to add that those PDF's at Merp.com are still available.



  


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:07 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote: So maybe I could PDF your rares? :wink: :lol: :lol:


mbassoc - I appreciate what you are doing with making archival pdfs of obscure items.

Since you have a lot of experience with this, and refer to the commerically available scans as bad (with which I agree from the few I have purchased), I was curious about your standards for the pdfs you create.

What resolution do you scan the images at? Can you post any other technical info regarding making optimized pdfs? I have little experience with this so I'm not even sure of the right questions to ask. Do you find that the scanning damages the items, because you need to bend them flat?

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:43 pm 
 

Image
mbassoc2003 wrote:
harami2000 wrote:There's a degree of truth in that, no doubt.
Whereas it might be hoped that the rarities might end up in collections there's a chance many copies will just be trashed. Was talking with someone recently who simply threw out their run of Trollcrushers, because they didn't like them, and casually gave away their first twenty-odd O&Ws.

So maybe I could PDF your rares? :wink: :lol: :lol:

Image

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 9:46 pm 
 

zhowar1 wrote:
mbassoc2003 wrote: So maybe I could PDF your rares? :wink: :lol: :lol:

mbassoc - I appreciate what you are doing with making archival pdfs of obscure items.

They're not "archival copies", they're "personal copies" (many/mostly of items which are then re-sold).

  


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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:21 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:They're not "archival copies", they're "personal copies" (many/mostly of items which are then re-sold).


I appreciate your point, but an "archive" is just a "a place or collection containing records, documents, or other materials of historical interest", whether it's personal or municipal, private or public...

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:35 pm 
 

zhowar1 wrote:I appreciate your point, but an "archive" is just a "a place or collection containing records, documents, or other materials of historical interest", whether it's personal or municipal, private or public...

Surely there would be less danger of "the product disappearing into history unrecorded" if those were circulated widely, rather than reserved on a single individual's PC?

(I'm also fairly certain that the .pdfs made before the items were sold-on weren't watermarked or subjected to minor edits/changes, either, in an attempt to reduce the impact on the original items).

  

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Post Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:51 pm 
 

radagast wrote:
Marlith wrote:
:?: Ok I have to know. Not familiar with OB3. Can't find it on the TSR archive. Sorry for go off topic for a moment but I am just not familiar with that particular item. :oops:


Orange B3. the original edition of the "Palace of the silver princess" :D :D

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http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

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Thank you. Am familiar with the item just never have seen it referred to in that manner...or if I have I have forgotten. I am really not all that big a neophyte though I sometimes seem to fit the part  :oops:


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 2:17 am 
 

Marlith wrote: I am really not all that big a neophyte though I sometimes seem to fit the part :oops:


I am a big neophyte, instead  :)  :wink:
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Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:05 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:Surely there would be less danger of "the product disappearing into history unrecorded" if those were circulated widely, rather than reserved on a single individual's PC?


Yes, of course. My use of "archival" was just in reference to mbassoc's *personal* archival copies. My understanding is that he won't distribute them because of copyright. But the copyright will eventually expire, and in my opinion it's a good idea to make scans now before the items age any further.

harami2000 wrote:(I'm also fairly certain that the .pdfs made before the items were sold-on weren't watermarked or subjected to minor edits/changes, either, in an attempt to reduce the impact on the original items).


No argument here. I'd certainly be in favor of watermarking pdfs. In fact, I think all of the picture scans present on the Acaeum should be watermarked to reduce use on Ebay. Of course it would be a lot of work.

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 10:20 am 
 

zhowar1 wrote:Yes, of course. My use of "archival" was just in reference to mbassoc's *personal* archival copies. My understanding is that he won't distribute them because of copyright. But the copyright will eventually expire, and in my opinion it's a good idea to make scans now before the items age any further.


I think that you probably missed David's original point. It is still a copyright violation to buy something, make a personal copy for yourself and the sell off the original. :)

harami2000 wrote:They're not "archival copies", they're "personal copies" (many/mostly of items which are then re-sold).


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Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:26 am 
 

bclarkie wrote:
I think that you probably missed David's original point. It is still a copyright violation to buy something, make a personal copy for yourself and the sell off the original. :)



No, I just chose not to respond to it. I understand that it is a copyright violation, but that does not personally bother me any more than when I was in college and there was lots of cassette copying of other cassettes and CDs.

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Post Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:05 pm 
 

I do make PDF copies and resell the originals. I don't have the money to expand my collection, and even reselling what I'm archiving, I lose the money I pay in shipping which is fairly high. Most of my stuff I pay to ship in from the States.

But I still feel that creating PDF versions of the obscure and bazaar is a worthwhile cause, inspite of the clear legal issues and not so clear moral issue.

ATM the Massconfussion modules crop up 3 or 4 times a year and falls within most peoples budgets. This will not always be the case. Calthonwey has popped up twice IIRC, and there are a whole raft of non-TSR modules and accessories that have only appeared on eBay once in the past 12 months.

I undertook this project as a medium term thing. Something I'd spend about 5 years doing. Someone has to archive them all before they disappear from general circulation.


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Post Posted: Sat Oct 15, 2005 6:35 pm 
 

The $1000+ collectables are already beyond the reach of many, but one might say that if you really want to read one, you can bide your time and borrow or buy one for the reading.

There will come a time when certain items slip out of public view. Into collections that do not get broken up and sold on eBay. Like rare recordings or paintings, these items were intended for everyone to enjoy. PDFs allow this to happen. They bring the elite collectable to the people they were intended for. The players.


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