The BIG Taboo!
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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:39 pm 
 

Very dodgy subject......

Do PDF files damage the Dungeons & Dragons collectables market?

Has the presence of the ST1.pdf file had an impact on the price the ST1 module attracts at auction?

Was there a noticable impact on the price of early Dragon Magazines when TSR published the Dragon Archive?

Was there a drop in the value of Dungeon issue 1 when WoTC put the PDF file on the Dragon Magazine Cover Disk?

If you like PDFs or hate these thieving b*st*rds, or don't even care, post a response.

Thanks.





PS. Sorry for messing around with the font size/colour. Just finding out if it works.

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:46 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Very dodgy subject......

Do PDF files damage the Dungeons & Dragons collectables market?

Has the presence of the ST1.pdf file had an impact on the price the ST1 module attracts at auction?

Was there a noticable impact on the price of early Dragon Magazines when TSR published the Dragon Archive?

Was there a drop in the value of Dungeon issue 1 when WoTC put the PDF file on the Dragon Magazine Cover Disk?

If you like PDFs or hate these thieving b*st*rds, or don't even care, post a response.

Thanks.





PS. Sorry for messing around with the font size/colour. Just finding out if it works.

Very good questions all.

I still haven't picked up the ST1 pdf, but now I'm thinking about looking for it.  The likelihood of me being able to afford the real thing is low.  I'd still prefer to have it, though.

I actually didn't realize until recently that the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM (which I own) had the Strategic Review in it as well.  I'd say it makes the Strategic Preview more valuable, and the SRs a little less.  Again, die-hard collectors still want the real thing, but the prices would probably drop as the content could be known.

I'm generally not a fan of PDF as a format, but that's not what you're asking.  I'd actually be less insulted if someone made a clever forgery, as I find they have a character all of their own.

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:04 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:I still haven't picked up the ST1 pdf, but now I'm thinking about looking for it.  The likelihood of me being able to afford the real thing is low.  I'd still prefer to have it, though.


I believe ST1.pdf or not, the ST1 module would remain a commodity and continue to fetch it's present price.

I do see that if ST1 were to be available on svgames.com for $4.74 a hit, the pool of potential buyers for the real copy of ST1 would be deminished, but I don't see that being substantial. ST1 hardcopy only appeals to the completist, and one with deep pockets at that. It will probably always be so.

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm 
 

I personaly see it as this. As a collector, nothing compares to the real thing in your hand, or on your shelf. So the value I deriously do not think is affected at all. If anything it the PDF could draw the interest to own the real thing thus driving up the price.

No my personal view of PDF's is that I enjoy them. I have a good many of them that I use when I decide to play it.  If Iwant to play the mod, I set the printer settings to black and white set the ink levels to lower and print it in a very minimal manner. Thus I can enjoy playing the mod, and not worry about doing damage to the real ones.

That is about all I use them for. Now how do I feel about people trying to sell these things?  That tick me off. The only people who should be allowed to make a profit off them are the original owners of the rights. How do I feel about people getting them for free? Well how many of us ever taped music off the stereo, be it a duplicate of a friends tape or CD, or record. or off the Radio.

I have no problem with people passing them around free. Its just the way I see it. Wrong or right its my view.  :D


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:12 pm 
 

So where do I get the PDF of this treasure??


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:39 pm 
 

Blackmoor wrote:So where do I get the PDF of this treasure??

Glad someone else asked the question I was dying to ask.  Didn't want to risk the wrath of the ST1 owners club though.  :wink:

  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:44 pm 
 

johnhuck wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:So where do I get the PDF of this treasure??

Glad someone else asked the question I was dying to ask.  Didn't want to risk the wrath of the ST1 owners club though.  :wink:


who cares :) gimme gimme  8O



  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:56 pm 
 

On roughly the same subject - is anyone else getting up dates from Cougarrinard concerning his private auctions for photocopes of, among other things ST1, PVQ, Dwarven Glory?
Unfortunately I deleted the 1st mail about these but it had some explanation that he got these copies from a job lot he brought and they weren't done by him.
The auctions are taking the format that basically when no one else bids he will close the auction and send the copies out.
(ST1 is currently at £10)
What do you think?
Carl

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:20 pm 
 

My feeling with PDFs is that they affect different groups of collectors in different ways. For instance, take two broad spectrums:

The hardcore collector: Hardly any effect at all. PDFs simply "do not count" to this person; securing an actual physical copy remains the goal.

The casual collector: A tremendous effect. The choice between pursuing, say, an orange B3 for $500 or grabbing it as a free download is really no choice at all. The money stays in the pocket and the PDF is printed out and placed in a binder.

As to how this affects auction prices, I'd venture to say "hardly at all." The key is the hardcore collectors — they are still bidding against each other and keeping prices at or near what the current market will bear. The casual collector isn't placing any bids at all, but this is affecting the final bid-count much more than the final price. After all, in 99 cases out of 100, the casual guy would have been out-bid anyway.

The danger for the seller, of course, is if collectors begin drifting from the first group to the second. At that point, I think a drop in price would be noticeable.

As to the ethics of the recent PDF phenomenon, I'll leave that for another post; this one is long enough as is ...

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:22 pm 
 

carl3369 wrote:On roughly the same subject - is anyone else getting up dates from Cougarrinard concerning his private auctions for photocopes of, among other things ST1, PVQ, Dwarven Glory?
Unfortunately I deleted the 1st mail about these but it had some explanation that he got these copies from a job lot he brought and they weren't done by him.
The auctions are taking the format that basically when no one else bids he will close the auction and send the copies out.
(ST1 is currently at £10)
What do you think?
Carl


I'm getting them too.  The story is BS.  He makes a copy for his own use then sells it on at a later date.  I think he makes up the story that someone else made the copy in case he gets caught.  Not the first time he has done this.

If anyone is interested.  Here is the bidding.  If you're on this list, then shame on you!  :twisted:

Palace of the Vampire Queen Wee warriors OD&D      £1   Gareth C      Mark S  £2             Mark  H  £3        Grome  £5
Dwarven Glory Wee Warriors   OD&D                         £1   Gareth C        Mark S    £2            Grome   £4

The Misty Isles  Wee warriors   OD&D                        £1   Gareth C            Grome   £4

ST1 Up the Garden Path adv 4-7th, AD&D usually        W T    £3        Mark S   £4      Dan DP  £7      Gareth C     £10   

The Jade hare   D&D adv                              usually     WT   £2                Dan DP £4                Grome   £4

RPGA 1 Rahasia RPGA D&D  adv  1-2                        Paul W  £2           Grome   £4            Gareth C   £5

RPGA 2  Black Opal  Eye       adv   2-3                        Mark H  £6      Gareth C  £8

RPGA 3 The forgotten king  adv  4-7th  AD&D            Paul W  £2             Mark H   £3           Grome   £4

RPGA 4;                                 Elixir of Life           4-7                   Paul W  £2               Mark H   £3         Grome   £4

R 1 To the aid of Falx RPGA adv AD&D 5-9th              Mark  S  £4      WT   £6     Dan DP   £6        Pete  W  £7

R 2 The investigation of Hydell RPGA AD&D adv 5th     Mark S  £3                      Dan DP   £6

R 3 The Egg of the Phoenix  RPGA  AD&D  adv 5-9th     Mark  S    £3                    Dan DP  £6      Mike Mud  £7

R 4 Doc's Island RPGA  AD&D adv 6-10th                        Dan DP  £6   Mark H  £4

B3 orange version Palace of Silver Princess     D&D         Mark  S  £3   Dan DP  £5

DCC# 3.5 haunted lighthouse Goodman games   adv,      And  W    £1       Gary  K   £4

  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:25 pm 
 

John,
Surely you can't mean that Cougar is making these copies himself?
That would surely not be right! :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:30 pm 
 

carl3369 wrote:John,
Surely you can't mean that Cougar is making these copies himself?
That would surely not be right! :lol:

I'm sure if I point this out to him, he will realise the error of his ways.  :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:51 pm 
 

johnhuck wrote:
carl3369 wrote:John,
Surely you can't mean that Cougar is making these copies himself?
That would surely not be right! :lol:

I'm sure if I point this out to him, he will realise the error of his ways.  :lol:

Yeah, but then he'll bombard you with feedback requests as to his attitude adjustment until you give in and are forced to admit to him being deserving of positive feedback (*pets and scritches to the concolorous kitty*).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but at least one person here actually stated they bought item(s) solely to make .pdf(s) and then sold them on again...

Was under the impression that making a digital copy of something you own is already kinda pushing existing "fair use", etc., measures.  :?:

Well, presumably those copies won't go "wild", anyhow??

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:07 pm 
 

johnhuck wrote:I'm getting them too.  The story is BS.  He makes a copy for his own use then sells it on at a later date.  I think he makes up the story that someone else made the copy in case he gets caught.  Not the first time he has done this.

If anyone is interested.  Here is the bidding.  If you're on this list, then shame on you!  :twisted:

Palace of the Vampire Queen Wee warriors OD&D      £1   Gareth C      Mark S  £2             Mark  H  £3        Grome  £5
Dwarven Glory Wee Warriors   OD&D                         £1   Gareth C        Mark S    £2            Grome   £4

The Misty Isles  Wee warriors   OD&D                        £1   Gareth C            Grome   £4

ST1 Up the Garden Path adv 4-7th, AD&D usually        W T    £3        Mark S   £4      Dan DP  £7      Gareth C     £10   

The Jade hare   D&D adv                              usually     WT   £2                Dan DP £4                Grome   £4

RPGA 1 Rahasia RPGA D&D  adv  1-2                        Paul W  £2           Grome   £4            Gareth C   £5

RPGA 2  Black Opal  Eye       adv   2-3                        Mark H  £6      Gareth C  £8

RPGA 3 The forgotten king  adv  4-7th  AD&D            Paul W  £2             Mark H   £3           Grome   £4

RPGA 4;                                 Elixir of Life           4-7                   Paul W  £2               Mark H   £3         Grome   £4

R 1 To the aid of Falx RPGA adv AD&D 5-9th              Mark  S  £4      WT   £6     Dan DP   £6        Pete  W  £7

R 2 The investigation of Hydell RPGA AD&D adv 5th     Mark S  £3                      Dan DP   £6

R 3 The Egg of the Phoenix  RPGA  AD&D  adv 5-9th     Mark  S    £3                    Dan DP  £6      Mike Mud  £7

R 4 Doc's Island RPGA  AD&D adv 6-10th                        Dan DP  £6   Mark H  £4

B3 orange version Palace of Silver Princess     D&D         Mark  S  £3   Dan DP  £5

DCC# 3.5 haunted lighthouse Goodman games   adv,      And  W    £1       Gary  K   £4


Ever consider forwarding a copy of his email to WotC.  He seems to think that if he leaves them off Ebay, he can avoid prosecutiuon.  I know that in most circumstances WotC doen't seem to care, but it might be worth a shot.  I mean we are not talking about him ripping off copyrights on $3-$6 modules, we are talking big time money  that he is basically stealing from them. Maybe they will be a little more interested and inclined to act being that is the case.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:11 pm 
 

bclarkie wrote:Ever consider forwarding a copy of his email to WotC.  He seems to think that if he leaves them off Ebay, he can avoid prosecutiuon.  I know that in most circumstances WotC doen't seem to care, but it might be worth a shot.  I mean we are not talking about him ripping off copyrights on $3-$6 modules, we are talking big time money  that he is basically stealing from them. Maybe they will be a little more interested and inclined to act being that is the case.

Not until now.

It has been done.  :lol:

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:34 pm 
 

johnhuck wrote:It has been done.  :lol:

*purrs*  8)

  

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 1:13 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:Very dodgy subject......

Do PDF files damage the Dungeons & Dragons collectables market?

Has the presence of the ST1.pdf file had an impact on the price the ST1 module attracts at auction?

Was there a noticable impact on the price of early Dragon Magazines when TSR published the Dragon Archive?

Was there a drop in the value of Dungeon issue 1 when WoTC put the PDF file on the Dragon Magazine Cover Disk?

.


    I have been actively selling before and during the pdf printings of the items.  There was a  marked drop in both prices and demand for Dragon issues when the Dragon archive was released.  As a matter of fact, it dropped to nearly nothing.  Not apocrhyal, since I knew the guy, but a fellow dealer at the time had boxes and boxes of Dragon mags that he couldn't move for even $1 each (these were in the range of #110-#200).  I bought around 2-3 copies each just to have some stock, it's taken me years to get rid of them.  Anyway, he got so frustrated, he actually started using the Dragon mags as PACKING MATERIAL since it was cheaper to use them than buy the stuff.  I actually got some stuff from him packaged with Dragon mag pages....!
    Only in the last year or so as the Dragon archive has become harder to find has the prices of average Dragon mags gone up, but still nothing like it was many years ago.  Issues in the #1-#20 range have pretty much retained their value throughout the years.  
   Dungeon mags including #1 have pretty much retained their value, no doubt helped by the fact no Dungeon magazine archive has never been released.
  On the whole I think the Pdf market has heavily driven down demand for the "average" module (T1, Q1, B series, stuff like that).  I don't think the collectible module has been effected at all.

Mike B.

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:31 am 
 

Did anyone else click on this link expecting it to be about Lawrence Summers big faux pas two weeks ago?

I mean, how the hell does someone become president of Harvard University without understanding that there are subjects taboo in this country that people just don't talk about?

  

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 3:50 am 
 

Ogreden wrote:Now how do I feel about people trying to sell these things?  That tick me off. The only people who should be allowed to make a profit off them are the original owners of the rights.


I completely agree with you here. Infringing on someone's copyright, and selling it, is downright illegal. I make PDF copies of my stuff, and I will use those for reading, nostalga value, gameplay, whatever. But if I were to try to sell them, I should have my ass sued.

This arguement is being tested in law by the music industry at the moment. I'm sure many of us have converted our own CDs into mp3s, and even downloaded mp3s off the net for free. But there is a big difference between buying mp3s from iTunes or Sony Music, and buying them from from a dealer in the mall or at a market.

Xaxaxe wrote:The danger for the seller, of course, is if collectors begin drifting from the first group to the second. At that point, I think a drop in price would be noticeable.


A good point. If this were the case, and collectors began to migrate to the cheaper media format, the resulting drop in price would bring the printed media within the hypothetical upper limit of the casual collector's wallet. Desire from that side of the fence would push the price back up, and with it, maybe, you'd see a migration from casual collector to hardcore collector. A cyclical market as we see in all walks of life.

Badmike wrote:Dungeon mags including #1 have pretty much retained their value, no doubt helped by the fact no Dungeon magazine archive has never been released. On the whole I think the Pdf market has heavily driven down demand for the "average" module (T1, Q1, B series, stuff like that). I don't think the collectible module has been effected at all.


Thanks for your thoughts Mike, from a dealers perspective. I was not on eBay in the pre-svgames.com era. I don't know how much of the price of S1, Q1 etc has dropped. But maybe some of the drop in price is due to the flood of common products as eBay has taken off over the years. This attraction of new sellers is just going to increase. I don't know how long eBay has been advertising on TV in the US, but they have only just started advertising in the UK and Germany (six months), so they are seriously trying to expand their recognition/user base in Europe.

This can only lower the price of regular xD&D products as more and more are offered for sale. Hopefully it will flush out a few more rarities from peoples attics so harami2000 can convince them to place a $20 BIN on them or improvstone will snap them up for $2000. :D

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Post Posted: Fri Feb 04, 2005 11:12 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
Badmike wrote:ike"]Dungeon mags including #1 have pretty much retained their value, no doubt helped by the fact no Dungeon magazine archive has never been released. On the whole I think the Pdf market has heavily driven down demand for the "average" module (T1, Q1, B series, stuff like that). I don't think the collectible module has been effected at all.


Thanks for your thoughts Mike, from a dealers perspective. I was not on eBay in the pre-svgames.com era. I don't know how much of the price of S1, Q1 etc has dropped. But maybe some of the drop in price is due to the flood of common products as eBay has taken off over the years. This attraction of new sellers is just going to increase. I don't know how long eBay has been advertising on TV in the US, but they have only just started advertising in the UK and Germany (six months), so they are seriously trying to expand their recognition/user base in Europe.

This can only lower the price of regular xD&D products as more and more are offered for sale. Hopefully it will flush out a few more rarities from peoples attics so harami2000 can convince them to place a $20 BIN on them or improvstone will snap them up for $2000. :D


This is actually a subject I've spent a lot of time thinking about.  Over the past few years I've gotten more and more into the paperbacks and music market  on Ebay (check out my CD section on ebay if you like oddball 80's and 90's stuff like Dramarama, The Church, Elvis Costello, Matthew Sweeet, plug plug plug plug...) just to try and diversify so I can continue to work at home should the RPG market totally collapse. Not that I think this will happen, ever, but average prices per item have gone done noticibly the last few years. PDFs could be the culprit, but a lot of factors may have a part: The moving away from paper and dice gaming in general; the emergence of 3rd Edtion D&D as the standard making any other system not as desirable; the emergence of more and more ebay sellers making previously hard to find material more available; and of course the pdf market making material easier and cheaper to find for the casual gamer who might not want to pay collector's prices.
   I have full printings of the complete RPG section from Ebay during certains months of the years 1998 & 1999 (for research purposes, this is when I first started selling on EBay as opposed to rpg marketplace), If I run across these anytime soon I will post some of the jaw-dropping prices listed for what now are considered pretty mundane D&D items.  It was not uncommon to get $20 or more for common items like a T1, B1, S1 or the like in average condition.  
      Harder to find stuff was insanely priced, stuff like Vecna Lives, Greyhawk ruins or GDQ1-7 routinely sold for $100 or more.  In a way the market has corrected itself over the past few years; ironically, stuff like the RPGA series, orange B3's and the like sold for exceptional prices both then and now, proving their value as collectibles by their stability.
   This is one of the reasons why I myself generally avoid paying very much for recent "collectibles" such as the limited ed Goodman games module or the ilk. Chances they will retain their value are so up in the air, with the advent of reprints and pdfs, that the gamble in terms of financial gain is not worth it.

Mike B.

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