New Print Chronolgy for DMG
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Post Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:09 am 
 

Howdy All,


Here is my new chronology for DMG printings (below). If you have any print which does not fit this sequence, please email me at [email protected]. Enjoy!


Futures Bright,

Paul

Dungeon Masters Guide

·        First (July 1979)
o        This designation refutes Harold Johnson in Collectable Toys and Values (Meyer 1994) and "The Story of TSR" in the Silver Anniversary Collector's Set (Mohan 1999). Both of these sources indicate that the 2nd, Print Alpha, below, is the first print run. The full argument suggesting this print to be the 1st print may be found here: Essay on New DMG 1st Print
o        This print is first made available at GenCon XII (August 16-19,1979).
o        Estimated print run is 40,000.
o        Book is 11 1/4" tall.
o        Wizard colophon and TSR address appear on spine.
o        The first reflective plate for the 4-color separation of the cover sported a 2" wide by 9/16" tall "ADVANCED D&D" in the angled yellow banner. Because of this the "ADVANCED D&D" text was too large and the "D" of "ADVANCED" partially runs off the cover.
o        The wizard colophon, TSR address, and TSR product code are all ca. 3/16" from the bottom edge.
o        Cover art is of two adventurers fighting a large efreet.
o        Angled yellow banner with "ADVANCED D&D" in the corner. The word "ADVANCED" is 2" long and the "ADVANCED D&D" is 5/8" tall. This is the first time the banner is used on any AD&D product.
o        No ISBN on spine, back cover, or title page.
o        Text block is stitched 5/8" apart.
o        Spine IS lined by yellow and red striped fabric.
o        Flyleaves and endpapers are a yellow-orange color.
o        232 numbered pages.

·        Second, Alpha (August 1979)
o        New reflective plate for the 4-color separation of the cover. In order to correct the oversized text in the angled yellow banner from the 1st print, the reflective plate for the 4-color separation of the cover was redone. These plates were costly to reproduce as they were pieced together by hand. The new plate changed to a 1 3/4" wide by 9/16" tall "ADVANCED D&D" in the angled yellow banner and the wizard colophon and TSR address were raised to 1/2" from the bottom edge, while the TSR product code remained at ca. 3/16" from the bottom edge.
o        According to Harold Johnson in Collectable Toys and Values (Meyer 1994) and "The Story of TSR" in the Silver Anniversary Collector's Set (Mohan 1999), this print run of the Dungeon Masters Guide (numbering 40,000 copies) had sixteen pages of the Monster Manual (4th Printing, August, 1979) mistakenly bound within. Johnson relates in his interview that copies of this print went out to retailers via outer shipping. Once the error was detected the books were recalled, the covers were removed, the correct pages were inserted, and the books were rebound with the old covers (see 2nd Print, Beta below). However, at least a few copies were purchased by customers before the recall and remain in circulation. The pages for the DMG were apparently printed 16 to a sheet (8 on the front and 8 on the back), known as a signature, then cut to be bound-in the book. In this case, the printer printed one side of the sheet with the DMG pages and the other with the Monster Manual pages. When they were cut and bound, alternating pairs of facing pages were thus either DMG or MM pages. The MM pages were also placed in their technically correct position in the book -- the page numbers were the correct MM page numbers, replacing the page of the same number in the DMG. The specific pages that contained Monster Manual data were: 98/99 (facing pages), 102/103 (facing pages), 106/107 (facing pages), and 110/111 (facing pages), for a total of 8 MM pages. As a result (of this, as well as the issue with the 3rd printing below), there was a severe supply shortage of the Dungeon Masters Guide in those early months.
o        Book is 11 1/4" tall.
o        Wizard colophon and TSR address appear on spine.
o        Wizard colophon and TSR address 1/2" from bottom of cover.
o        Cover art is of two adventurers fighting a large efreet.
o        Angled yellow banner with "ADVANCED D&D" in the corner. The word "ADVANCED" is 1 3/4" long and the "ADVANCED D&D" is 9/16" tall.
o        No ISBN on spine, back cover, or title page.
o        Text block is stitched 1" apart.
o        Spine is NOT lined with yellow and red striped fabric.
o        Endpapers and flyleaves are a yellow-orange color.
o        232 numbered pages.

·        Second, Beta (August-September 1979)
o        Recalled and rebound printing. As above but MM pages replaced by newly printed DMG pages and the books were rebound with same covers. This print is recognizable by examining the endpapers. The old endpapers are pasted over with the new endpapers. Also the text block may have been stapled (three big staples) or re-stitched too far into the text block during rebinding, leaving the gutter between pages too small or non-existent. Some text disappears into the gutter as a result. Also the new 16-page signatures were cut oddly and some page numbers are very close to the bottom edge of the page and the text on those pages may be at a slight angle (quick check: page 99).
o        This print is otherwise identical to the 2nd Print, Alpha mentioned above.

·        Third, Alpha (September-October 1979)
o        The third print run (again, 40,000 copies), printed just two weeks after the 2nd Print, Alpha, had the cover of every other book deeply scored across the front cover by a loose wire on the boxing machine. This run was recalled, the good books sorted out and shipped, and the scarred covers replaced. (confirmation needed)
o        Third Print, Alpha is the unscarred book that was shipped out. There should be about 20,000 of these.
o        Wizard colophon and TSR address appear on spine.
o        Wizard colophon and TSR address 1/2" from bottom of cover.
o        Cover art is of two adventurers fighting a large efreet.
o        Angled yellow banner with "ADVANCED D&D" in the corner. The word "ADVANCED" is 1 3/4" long and the "ADVANCED D&D" is 9/16" tall.
o        No ISBN on spine, back cover, or title page.
o        Text block is stitched 1" apart.
o        Spine is NOT lined with yellow and red striped fabric.
o        Endpapers and flyleaves are a yellow-orange color.
o        232 numbered pages.

·        Third, Beta (September-October 1979)
o        Third Print, Beta is the scarred book that escaped the recall. (confirmation needed)
o        This print is otherwise identical to the 3rd Print, Alpha mentioned above.

·        Third, Gamma (September-October 1979)
o        Third Print, Gamma is the scarred book that was recalled and the cover was replaced. This print is recognizable by examining the endpapers. The old endpapers are pasted over with the new endpapers. (confirmation needed)
o        This print is otherwise identical to the 3rd Print, Alpha mentioned above.

·        Fourth (October-November 1979)
o        (Possibly the 3rd Print, Alpha. Need more evidence.)
o        Endpapers and flyleaves are white.
o        This print is otherwise identical to the 3rd Print, Alpha mentioned above.

·        Fifth (October-November 1979)
o        Wizard colophon on spine is smaller and is now followed by "TSR Games" instead of TSR address.
o        ISBN now appears on spine and lower left corner of back cover.
o        This print is otherwise identical to the 3rd Print, Alpha mentioned above.

·        Sixth (December 1979)
o        Book is 11 1/8" tall.
o        Wizard colophon on spine is smaller and is now followed by "TSR Games" instead of TSR address.
o        Cover art is of two adventurers fighting a large efreet.
o        Angled yellow banner with "ADVANCED D&D" in the corner. The word "ADVANCED" is 1 3/4" long and the "ADVANCED D&D" is 9/16" tall.
o        ISBN now appears on spine, lower left corner of back cover, and bottom of title page.
o        Text block is stitched 1" apart.
o        Spine is NOT lined with yellow and red striped fabric.
o        Endpapers and flyleaves are yellow-orange color.
o        Title page now says "Revised Printing — December, 1979".
o        Adds text, errata, Appendices O and P, product catalog and reference sheets, but NO survey form. Reference sheets are perforated.
o        Removes Todd Oleck artwork (pg. 40 of 5th and earlier prints) and Dave Sutherland artwork (pg. 119 of 5th and earlier prints), presumably to accommodate the new layout. Some artwork is also resized and moved.
o        238 numbered pages.

·        Seventh (1980)
o        Endpapers and flyleaves are white.
o        This print is otherwise identical to the 6th Print mentioned above.

·        Eighth (1980)
o        Book is now 11 1/4" tall.
o        Wizard colophon on spine is smaller and is now followed by "TSR Games" instead of TSR address.
o        Cover art is of two adventurers fighting a large efreet.
o        Angled yellow banner with "ADVANCED D&D" in the corner. The word "ADVANCED" is 1 3/4" long and the "ADVANCED D&D" is 9/16" tall.
o        ISBN now appears on spine, lower left corner of back cover, and bottom of title page.
o        Text block is stitched 1" apart.
o        Spine is NOT lined with yellow and red striped fabric.
o        Endpapers and flyleaves are white.
o        Title page still says "Revised Printing — December, 1979".
o        Adds text, errata, Appendices O and P, product catalog, and reference sheets, but NO survey card. Reference sheets are NOT perforated.
o        Removes Todd Oleck artwork (pg. 40 of 5th and earlier prints) and Dave Sutherland artwork (pg. 119 of 5th and earlier prints), presumably to accommodate the new layout. Some artwork is also resized and moved.
o        238 numbered pages.

·        Ninth (1981)
o        Angled yellow banner with "ADVANCED D&D" and adding "Adventure Games" below that in the corner.
o        TSR face colophon on front cover and spine.
o        "TSR Games" removed from spine.
o        "ADVANCED D&D" is now followed by "Adventure Games" on spine.
o        ISBN and TSR product number on spine and lower left corner of back cover. Title page has only ISBN as in the 8th Print above.
o        Product code, "2011" on lower left corner of front cover is raised to 1/2" from bottom edge of cover and the font is changed.
o        The font for "By Gary Gygax" and TSR's address is changed and enlarged.
o        "ESSENTIAL REFERENCE INFORMATION FOR GAMEMASTERING ADVANCED D&Dâ„¢" on the front cover is changed to: "ESSENTIAL REFERENCE INFORMATION FOR GAMEMASTERING ADVANCED D&Dâ„¢ GAMES".
o        Some text changes inside, most notably the 1st paragraph of "Credits and Acknowlegements" preface on page 8 adds: "Dave Arneson".
o        Text block is NOT stitched but glued (adhesive binding).
o        This print is otherwise identical to the 8th Print mentioned above.


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:59 am 
 

stormber wrote:Well, what do you think?

New Print Chronolgy for DMG

Heh, heh... Don't think that hasn't gone un-noticed, Paul! :P

Was going to have another check-through later, but I made it as far as the first line before spotting that the First Print was apparently released before it was printed (Sep 1979)... ;)

You confused me a bit with the fourth print, since I'd previously queried whether the "old" 1st print still existed (as a 4th print) or whether that had been subsumed into the 3rd.
However, you go straight on with the "old" 2nd print (white flyleaf).

Restitch on the 2nd Beta would be awkward after the trashing the disbind caused. Stapling is certainly easier, per my copy. Any evidence of re-stitch in your copy?
As noted, it's a double flyleaf pasted over the old single flyleaf, owing to the way it was stapled through then glued in place. Can't see how a re-stitch would be so easy to carry out.

Was John's copy not a 3rd Gamma, then?
Is the dropped text block of the 2nd Beta inadequate to distinguish between those two re-binds? (That feature could be shared, but if not, needs to be mentioned on the 3rd prints as a distinguishing point).

Still not happy with the confidently repeated "again, 40,000 copies"... sounds like 200,000 copies shifted in the first 3-4 months?
Where would that have put the DMG on the best seller's list?

The 5th print was news to me, but tallies with that other question on your list! Nice to sneak that in...

The 6th print answers my previous query about yellow-flyleaf Revised editions, but is it not possible the release dates overlapped, if not the printing dates? i.e. That bundles of the old (non-revised) textblocks were still in storage and bound/shipped out with white flyleaves?
(Just seems strange to go yellow-white-yellow-white in strict chronological order; unless they ran out of yellow, I s'pose ; )
And why it the book shorter and ref. sheets perforated?
(Printed on the same press?).

Aside, would it not be best to rejig the above to be "Original" xth print, followed by "Revised" yth print, in order not to visibly damage/confuse the sequence order once the printings of the Revised edition are actually noted on the copyright page; and to ease insertion of any further "spots".

All for now... Thanks again! :D

  


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:01 pm 
 

Howdy David,


harami2000 wrote:Heh, heh... Don't think that hasn't gone un-noticed, Paul! :P


Sorry, too eager, eh?

harami2000 wrote:Was going to have another check-through later, but I made it as far as the first line before spotting that the First Print was apparently released before it was printed (Sep 1979)... ;)


Fixed! I guess I should have gone to sleep last night :P

harami2000 wrote:You confused me a bit with the fourth print, since I'd previously queried whether the "old" 1st print still existed (as a 4th print) or whether that had been subsumed into the 3rd.
However, you go straight on with the "old" 2nd print (white flyleaf).


So, no problem?

harami2000 wrote:Restitch on the 2nd Beta would be awkward after the trashing the disbind caused. Stapling is certainly easier, per my copy. Any evidence of re-stitch in your copy?


It sure looks restitched to me. The threads are there in the holes, could be they did both, staples and restitching. I just can't see my staples as the book is actually in good shape.

harami2000 wrote:As noted, it's a double flyleaf pasted over the old single flyleaf, owing to the way it was stapled through then glued in place. Can't see how a re-stitch would be so easy to carry out.


We'll they did it to my copy. I think they collated the text block, stapled it, added the new endpaper with the cloth strip attached, stitched the endpapers to whole thing, and then pasted the enpapers, attached to the text block, onto the old cover. Make sense?

harami2000 wrote:Was John's copy not a 3rd Gamma, then?


No. His is a 2nd Print, Beta.

harami2000 wrote:Is the dropped text block of the 2nd Beta inadequate to distinguish between those two re-binds? (That feature could be shared, but if not, needs to be mentioned on the 3rd prints as a distinguishing point).


No. The akwardly cut signature for the 2nd Print, Beta was a result of their replcement of the MM signature pages. No such replacement occurs with the 3rd Print, Beta and Gamma, as it is only their covers that were replaced. The text block would be undisturbed.

harami2000 wrote:Still not happy with the confidently repeated "again, 40,000 copies"... sounds like 200,000 copies shifted in the first 3-4 months? Where would that have put the DMG on the best seller's list?


What did they make that year? 8 million profit?

harami2000 wrote:The 5th print was news to me, but tallies with that other question on your list! Nice to sneak that in...


Still need more information. I am waiting on another member to email me.

harami2000 wrote:The 6th print answers my previous query about yellow-flyleaf Revised editions, but is it not possible the release dates overlapped, if not the printing dates? i.e. That bundles of the old (non-revised) textblocks were still in storage and bound/shipped out with white flyleaves?
(Just seems strange to go yellow-white-yellow-white in strict chronological order; unless they ran out of yellow, I s'pose ; )


I'll ask Dave Sutherland whether they engaged in such shennaningans. I'd guess no.

harami2000 wrote:And why it the book shorter and ref. sheets perforated? (Printed on the same press?).


I updated the print order, look again. The 1st-7th prints are 11 1/8", the 8th and 9th are 11 1/4". The ref sheets are perforated in the 6th and 7th but not the 8th and 9th. My guess is different cover stock (larger) and they stopped perforating to save time money.

harami2000 wrote:Aside, would it not be best to rejig the above to be "Original" xth print, followed by "Revised" yth print, in order not to visibly damage/confuse the sequence order once the printings of the Revised edition are actually noted on the copyright page; and to ease insertion of any further "spots".


Oh sure. That will come. I just need to get all 8 of the revised artwork DMG's.  :P


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:24 pm 
 

re. 2nd Beta (ephemerally T1st Beta):

stormber wrote:
harami2000 wrote:Restitch on the 2nd Beta would be awkward after the trashing the disbind caused. Stapling is certainly easier, per my copy. Any evidence of re-stitch in your copy?


It sure looks restitched to me. The threads are there in the holes, could be they did both, staples and restitching. I just can't see my staples as the book is actually in good shape.

And there's evidence of stitching through the seventh (replacement) signature [97/112], too??
Definitely thread, not just pushed-through paper? Hrmm...

Wouldn't be surprised if they had to start doing that if/when they found out the stapled-only rebinds were falling apart in their hands! (But still surprised they could actually manage a re-stitch without jamming up the machine, or something...).

Anyhow; to show what a (stapled-only) rebind looks like, inside.   @@ WARNING to any people with low CON... is not a pretty sight! @@


1" spaced stitching stripped out:

Image

replacement signature added; does not have stitching holes, only the staple marks:

Image

double flyleaf with webbing reinforcement along inner edge added front-and-back; the whole ensemble stapled together, then glued into the stripped down cover (original endpapers still visible underneath with knife marks through the webbing):

Image

(having reassembled, the intact staple can be felt through the cover binding in the puffed-up spine fold/whatever-it's-called, if that's any help... try just below the "ESSENTIAL REFERENCE INFORMATION" text, but it might depend on how well "closed" the staples are, or whether the lower one is longer/deeper(?))

...

s'OK, y'all can open your eyes again :?

Does your copy vary in any other material fashion, Paul?


(heh, and I'm still open to offers at $100... Any takers?  :P)

  

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:47 pm 
 

That looks fun  :!:  I'm gonna take mine appart now  :D

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Post Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 6:57 pm 
 

I don't know, I think that picture should have been preceded by a "Hey folks this is done by professional book binders, PLEASE don't try this home" disclaimer.


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:21 am 
 

Howdy David,


Mine has the staples. I am confident you, and John, and I have 2nd Print, Betas (my designation).


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Paul


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:37 am 
 

Paul --

First print July 1979, as opposed to August?

  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:56 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:re. 2nd Beta (ephemerally T1st Beta):

And there's evidence of stitching through the seventh (replacement) signature [97/112], too??
Definitely thread, not just pushed-through paper? Hrmm...

Wouldn't be surprised if they had to start doing that if/when they found out the stapled-only rebinds were falling apart in their hands! (But still surprised they could actually manage a re-stitch without jamming up the machine, or something...).

Anyhow; to show what a (stapled-only) rebind looks like, inside.   @@ WARNING to any people with low CON... is not a pretty sight! @@

8O MY GOD!!! Are you nuts???????!!!!!!!! 8O
:cry:  :cry:  :cry:
I looked at the pics before reading the warning....
Thanks the gods that you can rebind the poor manual....


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:06 am 
 

Howdy Scott,


FoulFoot wrote:Paul --

First print July 1979, as opposed to August?


I went with this because, I assumed articles for The Dragon would have to be written, edited, and ready for typsetting before the month the magazine was due out. Since the comments relative to the completion and printing of the DMG all appear in the August issue, I made the assumption the print was in July. Early August is possible but I felt the evidence supported late July. Do you agree?

BTW I have gone back and edited the DMG chronology several times over the last few days. Check with me before we grab any text for the Acaeum.

I'll be posting on the MM and PH shortly. Tim Jiardini (Arrarat) has found a huge stash of items from the late 70's when he was working in shipping at TSR. He had at one time, the first PH ever sold, signed by Gary Gygax! He thinks his brother trashed it!

As to the rest of his items, I'll be selling his items in my 3rd Collector's Trove TSR Celebrity auction. There's an orange B3 in there!

The next big auction will be for Rob Kuntz's collection - pretty awesome to hold the original map for Tsojconth and unpublished levels of Castle Greyhawk.

Both auctions will bring a few older prints of the MM, PH, and DMG to light. Hopefully there is a 3rd Beta or Gamma in there to fill things out.


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Paul


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:03 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Wouldn't be surprised if they had to start doing that if/when they found out the stapled-only rebinds were falling apart in their hands! (But still surprised they could actually manage a re-stitch without jamming up the machine, or something...).

It seems to me that the stitching machine would be a lot like a regular sewing machine.  Just make sure you feed it through the first hole and the machine will go from there.  I can see how they could do a re-stitch without jamming, but I also don't know all that much about bookbinding, except for what I needed to know to fix my own books that needed it.

I have an old copy of a book about the US Constitution that was printed in the mid 50's, and the staples they used to bind that book together were large, flat, and apparently rust resistant.  I'm surprised that for the rebind they used round magazine style staples.  No wonder the books were falling apart!  Those staples are flimsy compared to the large and flat staples I saw in that old book of mine.  And here's the clincher.  50 years after the book was printed, the cover and pages are both brittle (cheap paper), but the staples are still strong, and so is the binding.



  

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 1:48 pm 
 

stormber wrote:I went with this because, I assumed articles for The Dragon would have to be written, edited, and ready for typsetting before the month the magazine was due out. Since the comments relative to the completion and printing of the DMG all appear in the August issue, I made the assumption the print was in July. Early August is possible but I felt the evidence supported late July. Do you agree?


Well, we'll never know for certain, but I'd bet that the ink was still drying on them when they slid in the door at GenCon (Aug 16).  More tellingly, Gygax apparently signed Marsh's copy "Aug 1979"?

It's certainly a close call.  Going with August will probably reduce inevitable questions/confusion in the future, however (long after we've all forgotten why we picked July in the first place).

Foul

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:45 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Tim Jiardini (Arrarat) has found a huge stash of items from the late 70's when he was working in shipping at TSR. He had at one time, the first PH ever sold, signed by Gary Gygax! He thinks his brother trashed it!

Erm, Paul; now you are quoting directly both from my email to yourself (immediately after the T1st Greyhawk auction) and the post I made here, later! ;)

I'll whisper DMG quietly in your ear to see whether that gets a more recent reaction...

  


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:59 pm 
 

Howdy David,


harami2000 wrote:Erm, Paul; now you are quoting directly both from my email to yourself (immediately after the T1st Greyhawk auction) and the post I made here, later! ;)


What are you talking about? Tim and I have been exchanging emails to arrange for an auction. :?:


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:33 pm 
 

stormber wrote:
harami2000 wrote:Erm, Paul; now you are quoting directly both from my email to yourself (immediately after the T1st Greyhawk auction) and the post I made here, later! ;)


What are you talking about? Tim and I have been exchanging emails to arrange for an auction. :?:

I know. Sounds great!
Tim's more than just a little surprised at what he's managed to dig out. Will probably be putting in a bid or two... or more.

Am also hoping that his other recollections (as well as "material remains" *g*) will be added as extra insight to complement the "usual voices"; many of whom joined TSR much, much later...

21st January post on the "Recent Fun Finds" thread, btw:
Not-so-Recent Fun Finds

=

(Time to revisit your excellent DMG printing history list, again... Will print that off, with the extra comments, and have a browse through later tonight.
If nothing else, possibly for a few additional, albeit repeated, printing notes which might make it "easier to use" for someone who's only got one copy in front of them).

  


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:18 am 
 

Howdy Folks,


I added a few new bits of research, notably the appearance of Arneson's name in the Credits and Acknowledgements, and they removed "potpourri" from the GenCon advertisment! Bastards!

Still no leads on the 3rd prints - we just need to find one rebound one! I doubt we will ever see a scarred one. I can't think of any situation where a store owner wouldn't return such an obviously damaged book or that any customer would buy such a book at full price. Clearly this will be the rarest of the prints.

Scott, sorry I didn't get this up in time for your update.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:44 am 
 

stormber wrote:Howdy Folks,


I added a few new bits of research, notably the appearance of Arneson's name in the Credits and Acknowledgements, and they removed "potpourri" from the GenCon advertisment! Bastards!

Ummm...In which printings did they omit the word "potpourri"? All my copies have it, including the green priest cover... 8O

I do see the change between my 3rd and (don't have a 4th) 5th printing MM, but not in the DMG...

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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:49 pm 
 

Howdy,

deimos3428 wrote:Ummm...In which printings did they omit the word "potpourri"? All my copies have it, including the green priest cover... 8O

I do see the change between my 3rd and (don't have a 4th) 5th printing MM, but not in the DMG...


It was just a cut and past error in my post (from updating the MM chronology on the same night). Sorry.

The PH (7th+) and the MM (5th+) drop it, the DMG doesn't drop it as far as I know (I don't have any DMG's past the 9th print).


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Thu Feb 17, 2005 2:59 pm 
 

Howdy,


To clarify the change I have noted in the DMG GenCon advertisement, the sixth line is dropped:

[...] four days in its entirety (Thursday through Sunday), featuring a potpourri of [...]


There are also some hyphenation changes.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:01 pm 
 

stormber wrote:
harami2000 wrote:Still not happy with the confidently repeated "again, 40,000 copies"... sounds like 200,000 copies shifted in the first 3-4 months? Where would that have put the DMG on the best seller's list?


What did they make that year? 8 million profit?

1979/80? Out by a huge margin, Paul (factor of 10, give or take). I was well aware of that, but awaited any further progress/comments on the topic rather than just hogging the thread.


Combining the turnover figures from Dragon #35,
Manga &
Yahoo! GeoCities: Get a web site with easy-to-use site building tools.
...
7/77-6/78 "near $1 million"
7/78-6/79 "well over $2 million"
7/79-6/80 $4.2 million
7/80-6/81 $16.5 million (profit $4.25 million; stated highest percentage)

=

Say guesstimated $2.1 million sales for the last half of 1979 versus $1.2 million for the first half of 1979.

If every single dollar of sales was DMGs and nothing else, you'd still be a long way short of 200,000. Well short of 120,000, even.

Aside from the corresponding increased sales of MMs & PHBs, I'm sure TSR had other products!

The circulation of The Dragon was still a flat 11,000 at that point (Dragon #33) and a few thousand copies of the DMG were shifted at that first GenCon; any more than 5,000 would surely have been noted, http://php.iupui.edu/~wrporter/Genconhistory.html (thx to btb for that link)

(aside: I hadn't twigged that the releases of the PHB, DMG and D&DG were at successive GenCons. Kinda obvious that should be the case :oops:).

The (hypothetical/PR) figure of half a million players worldwide was only bandied around into 1980 (Dragon #35). If the Revised Edition DMGs had continued at the purported sales rate above, almost every single (alleged) player would have had a DMG soon after that.

Those repeated printings of 40,000 simply do not compute in the context of all the above.

The Acaeum listings and Page Not Found now quote as "fact" numbers which clearly cannot be substantiated.

50,000 copies of the 1st print Monster Manual is clearly also impossible in the context of the turnover figures above, regardless that you're quoting Gary himself.
I am, too.... :)


(One more attempt... Sanity check, please!)

  
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