Research Help: Dungeon Masters Guide
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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:29 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Not sure about that full history "as given", esp. for the T1st Beta?

Touche...  :wink:

  

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:49 pm 
 

So Paul, do you know of any T1st Alpha or Beta that escaped recall?  Have any been verified to anyone's knowledge?


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:58 pm 
 

beyondthebreach wrote:So Paul, do you know of any T1st Alpha or Beta that escaped recall?  Have any been verified to anyone's knowledge?

*points above for anyone just joined the thread*
(supersedes current Acaeum descriptions/classifications for all save T1stAlpha...).

T1st Alphas were already accounted for, but I couldn't get anyone to sell me their copy for $50+ :?

Will happily sell my (new-style) T1stBeta for $100 to any sucker willing to part with their cash. :oops:
*chuckles*. IMHO, I don't think they're going to be rare, now that the distinguishing marks have been confirmed.

Am still extremely curious about the T2nds, but am afraid I can't help out there...


(p.s. I did re-scan eBay and ask questions; but there aren't any more copies, at present.  :wink:
Paul could've been having an interesting time the last few months...).

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:17 pm 
 

Howdy,


beyondthebreach wrote:So Paul, do you know of any T1st Alpha or Beta that escaped recall?  Have any been verified to anyone's knowledge?


Yes, I have one T1st Alpha and one T1st Beta. David (harami2000) has a T1st Beta. According to Kim Mohan and Harold Johnson some escaped the recall, as the books went to outer shipping before the mistake was detected. My estimates are as follows (Harold Johnson estimates 10% of the product was not returned):

T1st Alpha DMG w/ MM pages (escaped recall) >>ca. 4,000
T1st Beta DMG Rebound w/ MM pages Replaced >>ca. 36,000
T2nd Alpha DMG w/ out Scarred Cover >> ca. 20,000
T2nd Beta DMG w/ Scarred Cover (escaped recall) >> ca. 2,000
T2nd Gamma DMG w/ Replacement Cover >> ca. 18,000

Here is an excerpt from my research and Scott's Acaeum listings:

"According to Harold Johnson in Collectable Toys and Values (Meyer 1994) and "The Story of TSR" in the Silver Anniversary Collector's Set (Mohan 1999), this print run of the Dungeon Masters Guide (numbering 40,000 copies) had sixteen pages of the Monster Manual (4th Printing, August, 1979) mistakenly bound within. Johnson relates in his interview that copies of this print went out to retailers via outer shipping. Once the error was detected the books were recalled, the covers were removed, the correct pages were inserted, and the books were rebound with the old covers (see 1st Print, Beta below). However, at least a few copies were purchased by customers before the recall and remain in circulation."

There are a lot of these in circulation, they are just difficult but not impossible to identify. Note, I have also discovered that the pages bound into the DMG are from the 4th print August 1979 MM!

As soon as I hear from more people I'll post my whole new nomenclature and printing order. I think there is another TRUE 1st print out there, one which had some 40,000 copies produced fro GenCon XII and one which predates the current T1st on the Acaeum.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:27 pm 
 

Good response, Paul.
Can see how 10% of the damaged T2nds might've been left "wild", but would have expected 4,000 copies with MM fragments to have caused a bit more of a stir in the marketplace the last 25+ years...
stormber wrote:As soon as I hear from more people I'll post my whole new nomenclature and printing order. I think there is another TRUE 1st print out there...

*g*. Will be sure to keep my eyes open for those TT 1sts. :P


p.s. Has it been confirmed that 40,000 copies were actually printed (each time), rather than 40,000 placed "on order"?
*
(OK, admittedly it's far more likely than that extremely dubious "25,000" quote for the 4th print OD&D white box, but would still be a non-trivial print run for a single consignment).

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:52 am 
 

I felt certain that I had a DMG with MM pages when I first came to the Acaeum.  I knew I had one of the harbacks with something wrong with its pages.  But it turned out to be my MM2 had some of it's pages bound upside down.  Well I think it was the MM2.  I need to check again.  Does this deserve some research?  Anyone else got one?  Or was TSR just a lot more sloppy by this time?

Paul, as far as the DMG goes, looks like I've got a T2G.  Will send you more info when I get home tonight.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:22 pm 
 

Howdy David,


Well, here is my response to David's thanks in part, but this post is aimed primarily at laying out my argument for making the DMG version with the 2" "Advanced" the TRUE first print.

harami2000 wrote:Good response, Paul.


Thanks. Discovering what printing of the MM was bound into the DMG was one of the most exciting moments for me. It all came down to the vampire errata and a single word, "turns". :) Which means the DMG with the MM pages bound-in post dates the August 1979 printing of the MM!

Also, the little red and yellow striped fabric lining the spine last appears in the 4th print of the PH (May 1979) and the DMG with the 2" "Advanced" in the yellow banner. All other versions of the DMG, and all subsequent versions of the other hardcovers, lack the fabric lining. The first AD&D hardcover to appear without the fabric lining is the 4th print MM from August of 1979. Again, post dating the MM-pages-bound-in version of the DMG to the DMG with the 2" "Advanced".

The DMG with the 2" "Advanced" in the yellow banner is the only version of the DMG to have a 2" Advanced". All other versions of the DMG have a 1 3/4" "Advanced". The height of the stacked, 2" "Advanced" over "D&D" is 5/8". In all other versions of the DMG the stacked height is 9/16". What this really means is that the font size was reduced by 1 or 2 points.

Also, the wizard colophon and TSR address on the 2" "Advanced" version are but 3/16" from the bottom edge of the cover. All other copies have the logo and address raised to 1/2" from the bottom edge.

According to Dave Sutherland, the cover was made by creating a reflective plate with a reverse image of the DMG artwork and then "punching out" by hand the areas where text and images were to be placed. The text and images were then hand placed back into the "holes" and a new 4-color process film plate could be produced. Dave said this process was expensive for the amount of set up time, machines, processing, and labor, costing about $5,000 for the process. (Dave was very close to the whole printing process. He even remembered the brand name of the press they used, a Holdenburg, German press. Dave said, "Man that was a fast machine! Scary too! Very dangerous.")

Further, the stitching of the DMG w/ the 2" "Advanced" is 5/8", a standard stitch spacing for the PH and MM up until August of 1979. The DMG's with the MM bound-in and all later versions of the DMG, PH, and MM use 1" stitch spacing. Again, post dating the MM-pages-bound-in version of the DMG to the DMG with the 2" "Advanced".

From my research* of Dragon magazine and TSR catalogs, it is known that the DMG was first printed just in time for GenCon XII (August 16-19, 1979). Given this and the above characteristics, it is my opinion the DMG cover with the 2" "Advanced" is the TRUE 1st print.

My last two bits of evidence are from Dave Sutherland who claimed his proof-copy (sold in my recent Collector's Trove Celebrity Auction) was from the first print run and Steve Marsh who got 1st print contributor copies of all three AD&D hardcovers. Both had/have MM's and PH's that were TRUE 1st prints (ala. the Acaeum). The DMG's they had/have are of the 2" "Advanced" variety. Steve had his mailed to him directly from Gary with an inscription dated "August 1979".

Given these facts, I'd say the DMG with the MM pages bound-in and the scarred version printed two-weeks later are 2nd and 3rd prints respectively. The 2" "Advanced" version must be the TRUE 1st print.

This flies in the face of Harold Johnson in Collectable Toys and Values (Meyer 1994) and "The Story of TSR" in the Silver Anniversary Collector's Set (Mohan 1999). In both articles they refer to the MM bound-in DMG as being the first print run and the scarred cover version as the second print run.

harami2000 wrote:Can see how 10% of the damaged T2nds might've been left "wild", but would have expected 4,000 copies with MM fragments to have caused a bit more of a stir in the marketplace the last 25+ years...


But surely these copies were more likely to be trashed by their owners due to the imperfection. The DMG is a big book, finding 8 of 232 pages, sandwiched face to face in the very heart of the book seems unlikely. Most sellers wouldn't even look and if they did would they know that those MM pages don't belong. They do match pages numbers and are really not all that out of place to the unwitting.

As far as detecting the rebound version well I have already "helped" three of our own members to discover that they actually had one. So if we don't notice these things how can we expect eBay sellers to note them.

With regard to the scarred copies of the DMG, the trash factor is even more in play, most people wouldn't even think the book would sell with such damage. They certainly wouldn't identify it with fanfare and "SUPER RARE!" or "MINT!" And again, the rebound version of this suffers the same obscurity of the rebound MM-pages-removed version. The unscarred version of this, the "good books" that were shipped, don't have any identifying features at all!

harami2000 wrote:p.s. Has it been confirmed that 40,000 copies were actually printed (each time), rather than 40,000 placed "on order"?


Harold Johnson and Kim Mohan both maintain each print run was 40,000.

Keep emailing me and check all of your copies! You may have a rare copy of the DMG and you didn't even know it!

*See the next post for my DMG relative dating research.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:27 pm 
 

Howdy All,


Some relative dating research for the first printing date of the DMG:

"Work on the third volume of the ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS® series, the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE, is now in progress. As much as we deal with and in fantasy, the real-world limitations of time and space place limitations on the speed of our endeavors. Thus, it now appears that the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE will be released at GenCon XII (August 16-19,1979, at the University of Wisconsin-Parkside, Kenosha, Wisconsin). The extra time is necessary if you, the gamers, wish a product that is comparable in quality to the PLAYERS HANDBOOK." (Gary Gygax, Dragon 22, Feb. 1979)

"…available about August." (TSR Games Catalog, March 1979)

"As of this writing the manuscript for DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE has at long last been completed, save for a few pages of probable rewrites and transitional material which editing will uncover. This has been a long and lousy struggle for me, as there have been so many other things to do, and great numbers of interruptions in the work flow. It is fun to be … Now let's see what comes from my upcoming trip to CANGAMES in May (May 18-21, 1979)." (Gary Gygax, Dragon 25, May 1979)

"Q. With the completion of, printing of, and now, the final release of, the Dungeon Masters Guide…" (Dragon 28, August 1979)

"Our work on the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE has been an undertaking of considerable magnitude, since it is the largest project ever published by TSR. Fortunately, our prior experience with other projects and the two preceding hardbound volumes (MONSTER MANUAL and PLAYERS HANDBOOK) stood us in good stead. Our energies over quite a number of months have been dedicated to bringing you, the AD&D enthusiasts of the world, a book you have been waiting for — and in time for GenCon XII [August 16-19,1979]." (Mike Carr, Dragon 28, Aug. 1979)

"[Report from GenCon XII, August 16-19,1979]…tucked in the corners hanging on every word of their new Dungeon Masters Guide." (Kim Mohan, Dragon 30, Oct. 1979)


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:43 pm 
 

I've been following this thread with interest, and I'd like to extend a hearty thanks to Paul for his hard work and research.  It certainly looks like you're onto something here.

All of it made perfect sense to me, right up to your next-to-last post -- where you totally lost me.  Uh, so the new printing sequence you list above (T1A, T1B, T2A, T2B, T2G) is false?  If I'm reading you right, you believe there was a printing of 40,000 books before that sequence, that have a 2" yellow banner as its defining characteristic?

stormber wrote:My last two bits of evidence are from Dave Sutherland who claimed his proof-copy (sold in my recent Collector's Trove Celebrity Auction) was from the first print run and Steve Marsh who got 1st print contributor copies of all three AD&D hardcovers. Both had/have MM's and PH's that were TRUE 1st prints (ala. the Acaeum). Both also had/have DMG's of the 2" "Advanced" variety. Steve had his mailed to him directly from Gary with an inscription dated "August 1979".


But Sutherland's "proof copy" had MM pages bound in -- I distinctly remember that from the auction listing.  If his is a proof copy (and I wouldn't think there's any disagreement that this is indeed the case), then it's certainly representative of the "True 1st".  Right?

Foul

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:24 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Well, here is my response to David's thanks in part, but this post is aimed primarily at laying out my argument for making the DMG version with the 2" "Advanced" the TRUE first print.

*nods*.
There's certainly something fishy going on there, in that it would be strange to increase the size of the banner logo at a later date only to reduce it again later once it was found to be "trimmed". Unlikely, but not impossible in its own right.

(Of course, they could've shelved those covers as "faulty", but been forced into using them. Were the covers printed at the same time? That aside, however....).

Those banners only appear on the MM & PHB at around the same time. What lengths are the logos on these? Especially on the PHB; being the earlier.

Very good research on the MM edition and cross-checking the fabric lining and stitching points, plus DCS's copy.
Agreed. Those combined factors should certainly indicate an earlier date for (some/all of) the 2" edition; which had been mentioned before as a distinguishing mark of early copies, but without the full sequencing issues being resolved.

So release date was August 1979, then? That sounds better than May, anyhow... And also tallies more with my recall of "shortage of copies" being mentioned (in a UK context) rather than total failure of supply. Would have to cross-check on that, since there were "delays" too, no? And not just the time EGG was taking to write his masterpiece! :)
*
Thus, at least three(?) print runs of 40,000(?) plus the 2nd edition, all prior to December 1979.
Does that make the existing "1st" vanish, or is there still evidence for a fourth print run (old "1st") before the 2nd edition? (You mentioned that other people's copies weren't rebinds, but not whether they were T2As ;))

Those numbers seem rather high, IMHO- albeit not impossibly so- but, anyhow, you have already trashed one of Harold Johnson's comments about the print run order...
Would certainly prefer to see some financials which would support this.


stormber wrote:But surely these copies were more likely to be trashed by their owners due to the imperfection. The DMG is a big book, finding 8 of 232 pages, sandwiched face to face in the very heart of the book seems unlikely. Most sellers wouldn't even look and if they did would they know that those MM pages don't belong. They do match pages numbers and are really not all that out of place to the unwitting.

Hrmm... not too sure about that...

My $50 offer for a decent T1A is still open.

I certainly wouldn't have trashed such a large investment in 1979 and would almost certainly query why (obvious) Monster Manual pages were in my copy!
Am sure a few (lucky) people might've done so; but am still struggling with 4,000.

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:30 pm 
 

FoulFoot wrote:But Sutherland's "proof copy" had MM pages bound in -- I distinctly remember that from the auction listing.Foul

I thought that wasn't the case, hence some disappointment, no?

*re-checks*

  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:41 pm 
 

damn can't help with this one at all....i got 7 DM's guides and they are all revised dec 79 editions :) bah :D

*sigh* ne'mind :D



  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:47 pm 
 

FoulFoot wrote:But Sutherland's "proof copy" had MM pages bound in -- I distinctly remember that from the auction listing.

*sigh*.
Sorry. Can't find a post here, off-hand, and I didn't put in a bid (9/19/04 close date).

Will await someone telling me how lousy my memory is!

  

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:54 pm 
 

I remember thinking at the time that it fit with our description of True 1st Alpha, and thus, was some vindication of the printing sequence.  And I don't remember anyone saying at the time that there was any discrepancy -- it all fit.

Foul

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:55 pm 
 

killjoy32 wrote:damn can't help with this one at all....i got 7 DM's guides and they are all revised dec 79 editions :) bah :D

*sigh* ne'mind :D

Hrmm... there are still a few goodies to be had with the revised editions, such as those yellow-flyleaf copies.
The Acaeum listing only mentions that one such copy has been seen, although Guido currently has a bashed copy up for sale (if I remember correctly from my browsing), and there's another at: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 5953419985

My own personal copy of the DMG was purchased new, and is also a revised edition... Put my cash gifts from Christmas to good use, there, next time I was down in Edinburgh. :)

  


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:27 pm 
 

Howdy all,


Sorry for making this confusing but the research is still in process. I did not wish to give out the fact that there was a potential new TRUE 1st print until I was ready. Here is my revision of the print sequence, to date:

1st = 2" "ADVANCED"
2nd, Alpha = MM pages bound in (escaped recall)
2nd, Beta = rebound MM pages removed
3rd, Alpha = unscarred cover
3rd, Beta = scarred cover (escaped recall)
3rd, Gamma = rebound with new cover
4th = white flyleaf
5th = revised
6th = face colophon

Now there may be variations in the 4th and 5th but I am still researching. I have in my collection:

1st = 2" "ADVANCED"
2nd, Alpha = MM pages bound in (escaped recall)
2nd, Beta = rebound MM pages removed
…
4th = white flyleaf
5th = revised
6th = face colophon

One person here on the Acaeum has a 2nd Beta and another a 3rd Gamma. I am gathering information on these. It looks like both are confirmed matches. There are about 7 confirmed 1st prints, plus I have 4, Steve Marsh has one, and I sold one in the Sutherland auction.

Hope that clarifies things.

Scott, should I post my revision of the Acaeum listing for the DMG? It is 2 1/2 pages long 10 pt. font. It may clear up things and give us a good base to tear down or build upon my research.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:36 pm 
 

Howdy Scott,


FoulFoot wrote:All of it made perfect sense to me, right up to your next-to-last post -- where you totally lost me.  Uh, so the new printing sequence you list above (T1A, T1B, T2A, T2B, T2G) is false?  If I'm reading you right, you believe there was a printing of 40,000 books before that sequence, that have a 2" yellow banner as its defining characteristic?


Correct.

stormber wrote:But Sutherland's "proof copy" had MM pages bound in -- I distinctly remember that from the auction listing.  If his is a proof copy (and I wouldn't think there's any disagreement that this is indeed the case), then it's certainly representative of the "True 1st".  Right?


No it did not have the MM pages bound in, nor was it rebound, it is the reason I started this whole line of research. It had all of the characteristics of the 2" "ADVANCED" version. Yes it is his proof copy. He said he got it straight from Patch Press, the 1st printing, as a proof. That is why I believe it is the TRUE 1st print.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:41 pm 
 

Howdy,


harami2000 wrote:
FoulFoot wrote:But Sutherland's "proof copy" had MM pages bound in -- I distinctly remember that from the auction listing.Foul

I thought that wasn't the case, hence some disappointment, no?

*re-checks*


Correct. There are no MM pages bound into the Sutherland proof copy. Neither is it rebound. It is a 2" "ADVANCED" version, my new 1st Print. Steve Marsh also has a copy sent to him in August 1979, dated and signed by Gary Gygax.


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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:47 pm 
 

Great research work, Paul!  

(I'm particularly enthused as I have two of what you're referring to as the new "True 1st" prints, and for this reason, I'm staying completely out of any and all classification arguments).

Any idea on values/relative values of the various printings?  :)

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Post Posted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 5:50 pm 
 

Howdy Scott,


FoulFoot wrote:I remember thinking at the time that it fit with our description of True 1st Alpha, and thus, was some vindication of the printing sequence.  And I don't remember anyone saying at the time that there was any discrepancy -- it all fit.


It does not fit any printing listed on the Acaeum.

I did not say anything at the time because I had not fully researched the matter. At that time I went with Dave's own word that this was his proof copy that he got from the first print run. Now my own research supports this.


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