Research Help: Dungeon Masters Guide
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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 10:36 am 
 

Howdy Folks,


I need some information on the following printing of the Dungeon Masters Guide:

Wizard logo.  
Cover art is of a two adventurers fighting a large efreet.  
Angled yellow banner with "Advanced D&D" in the corner.  
Flyleaf is a yellow-orange color.  
232 pages.

Please email me if you have copies matching the above criteria. I'll need more than one person to contact me so everybody to whom this applies, please email me. I have some DMG research I am trying to complete for the Acaeum. Thanks!


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 1:33 pm 
 

Howdy All,


Aw c'mon I see you guys looking :) One reply so far. Thanks EGG!


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Paul


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:03 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Aw c'mon I see you guys looking :) One reply so far. Thanks EGG!

8O ?

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:33 pm 
 

The Acaeum Listing would seem to place what you've described as the 3rd print run of the 1st edition, preceded by the True First and the First Beta.

First:  May 1979.  Wizard logo.  The first printing of the DMG that actually made it to retailers without being recalled!  Cover art is of a two adventurers fighting a large efreet.  Angled yellow banner with "Advanced D&D" in the corner.  Flyleaf is a yellow-orange color.  No ISBN on spine (though two copies has been spotted with both the ISBN and Product Code on the spine and rear cover).  232 pages.  Thanks to Mike Deaton and Jean-Philippe Suter for help with this info.


I have a later edition myself, the 327th Edition from WoTC where they've screwed the whole game up and sold out to the money men. Still, it keeps my desk from rocking.

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 3:45 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:The Acaeum Listing would seem to place what you've described as the 3rd print run of the 1st edition, preceded by the True First and the First Beta.

Not sure about that full history "as given", esp. for the T1st Beta?
Paul's trying to get on top of that, I believe... ;)

(And, of course, I'll happily pay $50 for any "T1stA" DMG with MM pages bound in....).

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:09 pm 
 

Howdy,


O.K. Three people have replied with 6 copies. Yay!

mbassoc2003 wrote:The Acaeum Listing would seem to place what you've described as the 3rd print run of the 1st edition, preceded by the True First and the First Beta.


The Dave Sutherland and Steve Marsh auctions, as well as upcoming Tim Jiardini (Player of Arrarat from the Rogues Gallery and long time TSR employee/playtester) and Rob Kuntz auctions, have brought up some interesting information about the DMG.

As such, I am building a body of information to update the Acaeum listings.

harami2000 wrote:Not sure about that full history "as given", esp. for the T1st Beta? Paul's trying to get on top of that, I believe... ;)


...and a bit more. Dave was the primary TSR contact with the Patch Press, often being the one to proof and take blue line copies to them. He also had a DMG and PH right off the first print run that went into the auction I ran.

Steve, on the other hand, received 1st prints of all of the books direct from Gary Gygax as he was a contributor. He only retains the PH and DMG as the MM was loaned and lost. His prints are identical to Dave's, save that they were dated, autographed, and inscribed by Gary on their print date!

harami2000 wrote:(And, of course, I'll happily pay $50 for any "T1stA" DMG with MM pages bound in....).


They are out there, perhaps as many as 4,000. More information on that later, I have to get more data from you folks. Email me!


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Paul


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:13 pm 
 

stormber wrote:as well as upcoming Tim Jiardini (Player of Arrarat from the Rogues Gallery and long time TSR employee/playtester)

Heh, heh... that's a familar name. Did you ask him before I mentioned?

(Like I said, never got a response to the email I sent you after the auction, with his details & story...).

stormber wrote:They are out there, perhaps as many as 4,000.

Goodie! ^^

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:48 pm 
 

Howdy David,


harami2000 wrote:
stormber wrote:as well as upcoming Tim Jiardini (Player of Arrarat from the Rogues Gallery and long time TSR employee/playtester)

Heh, heh... that's a familar name. Did you ask him before I mentioned?

(Like I said, never got a response to the email I sent you after the auction, with his details & story...).


Sorry, if I missed your email, I didn't recall seeing one from you.

I was watching the auction and knew who he was. I was hoping to snag some items to run another "Collector's Trove TSR Alumnus Auction". He just emailed me today, saying he had a box of TSR items from the late 70's he stashed in his parents attic prior to leaving for college. Oh, some mighty good items in there! Lot's of shrinkwrapped and proof copies.

The Rob Kuntz auction will be run later, in the early spring. That will be a tremendous auction: original artwork, proofs, manuscripts, maps, unpublished levels to Castle Greyhawk, unpublished modules, etc.


Futures Bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:07 pm 
 

(And, of course, I'll happily pay $50 for any "T1stA" DMG with MM pages bound in....).


I'll see your $50 and raise $100.

  

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:36 pm 
 

ifearyeti wrote:
I'll see your $50 and raise $100.


For that sort of money you can have mine....

Now where's that Pritt Stick (Uhu) :D

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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:40 pm 
 

*eeps*. What happened there...?? Think I edited the previous post rather than using it as a template for a reply...

*replacing text, messily*


stormber wrote:
harami2000 wrote:(Like I said, never got a response to the email I sent you after the auction, with his details & story...).


Sorry, if I missed your email, I didn't recall seeing one from you.

k... I'll not push the point.

===

Interesting; for the 1st print, pages 97/100 and 109/112 are definitely set somewhat low and rather "squiggly" compared with the rest of the volume.
Ties in roughly with the aforementioned MM pages.

Did they by any chance just re-bind in that signature (97/112), or was the reworking a rush job?

I had a look "inside", since my copy's disbound, but couldn't see any evidence for that.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:43 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:
ifearyeti wrote:
I'll see your $50 and raise $100.


For that sort of money you can have mine....

Now where's that Pritt Stick (Uhu) :D

Umm... if you can glue the front and back of a single sheet of paper together without leaving any trace, you can have $200, far less $50!

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:54 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:Did they by any chance just re-bind in that signature (97/112), or was the reworking a rush job?

*lol*. I sent that two minutes before your PM, Paul. ;)

Nice bit of re-binding! (Didn't twig with the flyleaves... heh; although the unsubtle staples should've been a hint. *g*).

Congrats on the research, thus far :)

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:07 am 
 

Howdy Folks,


O.K. I have had 5 people respond with 8 copies. One of them has discovered that they have a rebound one (listed as 1st Print Beta on the Acaeum).

Email me so I can post what I have so far for research.


Futures bright,

Paul


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:12 pm 
 

stormber wrote:O.K. I have had 5 people respond with 8 copies. One of them has discovered that they have a rebound one (listed as 1st Print Beta on the Acaeum).

Actually, I think it's a T1stAlpha+.  *LOL*.

But it might only be possible to tell the difference by ripping a copy apart! 8O
(mine already is, of course...).

Maybe you can find a T1st Beta with distinguishing rebind indicators.... or variations in the page cut, as I mention above.
Will send you a PM with my logic, Paul. ;)

Fun, fun, fun.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:28 pm 
 

Howdy David,


harami2000 wrote:Maybe you can find a T1st Beta with distinguishing rebind indicators.... or variations in the page cut, as I mention above.
Will send you a PM with my logic, Paul. ;)


That is what I am saying, I do have a TRUE 1st Alpha and TRUE 1st Beta: your's is a T1st Beta. Check page 99. Is the text crooked? Is the page number very close to the edge? The double pasted endpaper you mentioned indicates a rebound version too. Check the gutter, is it non-existant? Does the text run into the gutter? The staples are another indicator. All prints up to December of 1979 were stitched, not stapled. Yours was stitched and was later stapled after it was torn apart and rebound.

Thus you have one of the DMG's that was recalled, the MM pages removed and replaced by the proper DMG pages. The Acaeum lists this as a TRUE 1st Beta.


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:33 pm 
 

Stormber wrote:Thus you have one of the DMG's that was recalled, the MM pages removed and replaced by the proper DMG pages. The Acaeum lists this as a TRUE 1st Beta.

True First Beta:  The second print run (again, 40,000 copies), had the cover of every other book severely gashed by a loose wire on the boxing machine.  This run was recalled, the good books sorted out and shipped, and the scarred covers replaced.  We have not yet spotted a copy of this print, and in fact, it may be difficult to discern this printing from a later print that was somehow damaged over time.


Doesn't say anything in the above T1stBeta description about being originally printed with incorrect Monster Manual pages.

I'd think that both the T1stAlphas (with MM pages, stated to be destroyed) and faulty T1stBetas (with the correct pages, but damaged covers) were rebound, with distinguishing evidence I just PM'd to you.

But I don't have a rebound T1st Beta print (by the above description), I think.


Let me know what you think, but I'd suspect another variant needs to be squeaked in there...

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:53 pm 
 

Howdy David,


harami2000 wrote:Doesn't say anything in the above T1stBeta description about being originally printed with incorrect Monster Manual pages.

I'd think that both the T1stAlphas (with MM pages, stated to be destroyed) and faulty T1stBetas (with the correct pages, but damaged covers) were rebound, with distinguishing evidence I just PM'd to you.

But I don't have a rebound T1st Beta print (by the above description), I think.


Let me know what you think, but I'd suspect another variant needs to be squeaked in there...


Whoops! Yes. I was using my own designation when refering to your copy. I forgot that nobody has seen my new designations. They are as follows:

T1st Alpha DMG w/ MM pages (escaped recall)
T1st Beta DMG Rebound w/ MM pages Replaced
T2nd Alpha DMG w/ out Scarred Cover
T2nd Beta DMG w/ Scarred Cover (escaped recall)
T2nd Gamma DMG w/ Replacement Cover

Your's, according to my nomenclature, is a T1st Beta DMG Rebound w/ MM pages Replaced. Sorry for the confusion. Does that make sense now?


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Paul


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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 2:57 pm 
 

stormber wrote:T2nd Gamma DMG w/ Replacement Cover

Sounds too much like the "Gamma World" thread.  :)  I'll get the questions back to you as soon as I finish work...I have two copies which aren't scarred but otherwise I'll have to sort out.

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Post Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:24 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Your's, according to my nomenclature, is a T1st Beta DMG Rebound w/ MM pages Replaced. Sorry for the confusion. Does that make sense now?

Yup; perfect sense, now! Thank you, Paul.
Glad to see the illogic of the current T1st listings has now been pretty much fixed. :)

Oh, and I'd wondered whether you'd manage get a "gamma" in there, somewhere.

Pretty good entertainment value for a quarter, I'd say! :o

Now, that other question, then, is how to tell the T1st Beta from the T2nd Gamma (your system). (And the T2nds in general from the old "1sts"...).
Had they corrected the text block positioning by then, or is that where the two inch cover banner title comes in?
If there are no other distinguishing marks, the only way to tell the rebinds apart would be to disbind and look for the absence of stitch holes on the seventh signature [97/112]. Fingers crossed there are better methods! :P  

Best wishes,
David.

  
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