Woodgrain went quick today!
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Post Posted: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:16 pm 
 

My understanding of the GenCon IX Bob Blake Tournament Dungeon is as follows and I could be wrong (please correct me if so)--  Actual Tournament copy (as seen in the recent auction) 1st Edition produced for sale with Red cover 2nd Edition produced for sale with Green Cover (I own one of these) Judges Guild edition (also seen in the recent auction but not part of the original tourney copy)  Thanks. Adam


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:16 am 
 

Erm... no.  According to Matthias Bock (who's updated his page on this since I last checked it out):  http://www.stud.uni-hamburg.de/users/af ... index.html  The print run goes:  - tournament copy (red cover) - tournament copy (green cover) (this one is mine; I guess I'm missing the cover to it.  The scan on his site is mine). - Judges Guild, black-and-white version - Judges Guild, color version  As both tournament copies say "2nd Edition", by definition there has to be a 1st Edition, though perhaps it wasn't published (or more likely, the 1st Edition was the one actually used at the GenCon tournament).  Though it's difficult to tell from the scan, the copy auctioned off recently looks to be a red-cover version, missing the red cover.  Though the "fragment of parchment" is something new.  Foul

  


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:22 am 
 

Sorry-- I spent some time looking around Matthais scans and I see what you are talking about. I have my green copy in storage and I will need to dig it out and have a look at it (remembered it looking differently). I will compare it to the pictures in the auction and see what the differences are. If this is the case that the module has been busted up then that would drastically downwardly affect its value for sure. I know Mcduff has the Red cover version (perhaps he can shed some light on these copies).  Thanks. Adam


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Post Posted: Mon Feb 17, 2003 11:02 pm 
 

I looked at my red cover version this morning.  If you take the cover off it looks identical to the preliminary round and of course the final round is also in the booklet and is also identical to the one pictured.  However I did not see the character sheets mentioned and the "fragment of parchment" looks different.  The one on ebay could have been an earlier convention printing, but I cannot say for sure.

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 2:15 pm 
 

Well, I can shed some light on this. I was the one who got the boxed set. The seller was ecstatic to get $300 for it. I was ecstatic to get it for $300. And the great eBay will still make over $1,000,000 a day.

Power to the people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:09 pm 
 

I really do not see how this can be called "power to the people" and should be more "power to the greed of the few (both seller and buyer)" and here is why:



I am sure there were other people interested in buying that item and they have now lost that opportunity (I was not one of them). Why? Because one person decided to say "screw them, I am going to see if I can sucker this seller into ending this auction for what is the most that I want to pay!"



Who gets hurt out of all of this? We collectors do, and we should not just sit back and allow someone else to gloat over it. Mike Kuo did this all the time and that was why he never felt there was anything wrong with it.



I will try to explain to everyone here why we the collectors are hurt by this far more than ebay:



A seller has a rare and valuable item he wishes to sell but he really does not know the true value of it (lets say a brown boxed set of D&D). His son bought it at a convention when he was young, grew up, went off to college, moved out etc. He puts it up for auction with a number of other items but has no idea that it is really worth $600. A savvy collector e-mails him and offers him $200 for it and the seller accepts. The seller is happy and the buyer is happy.



This type of event continues on and on until eventually, every collector out there starts sending an e-mail with a purchase offer every time a rare item comes up for auction. Now, rather than being an actual high bidder, everyone is off mailing offers with competition unknown. You wanted that RPGA1 for $150? "Sorry, but someone else offered me $200. Would you be willing to pay $225?" How do you know he was offered $200? You don't and you never will even if you call his bluff. You could even say that you will pay $225 which the seller than tells the other buyer, etc etc. Only the collector/buyer gets hurt in this type of activity.



What if Burntwire or any of the other collectors wanted that brown boxed set and were willing to pay $500 for it? The seller loses out on extra money(oh well, it was his choice), the other collectors lose out on an opportunity to have the boxed set, and some greedy SOB gets it on the cheap because of an ignorant seller. Sorry, if it were up to me, anyone who engages in this type of activity would be blacklisted...you are putting up an auction, gee it would be a shame if it sold for $1.00 and you got screwed.



An auction is a fair venue because you know where you stand in relation to other people. If you remove that then you end up with dozens of people e-mailing bids with competition unseen and no one, I mean no one, will ever get a fair deal ever again. No power to the people, no putting it over on ebay, just a bunch of people that are forced to over-guess on a buying-price. An auction price is set by two people: the highest bidder and the next highest bidder. What if the highest bidder offers $500 and the next highest offers $300. On ebay, the highest bidder pays $305. With this e-mailing of bids the high bidder pays $500. I think that pretty much says it all as to why this type of activity is wrong, greedy, and invariably is bad for all collectors.



-PD

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 6:19 pm 
 

I asked him if he had a Buy it Now price and he named the price. No deception there.

And what is your opinion of people who routinely outbid everyone and pay insane prices for items that they already own in order to trade or resell them? I never bid on an item I already have, my reasoning is that someone else should be allowed to win it and enjoy it.

BTW, I agree about Kuo. I was VERY generous on a few trades with him, and he ended up stiffing me recently. He is uninterested in any kind of deal unless it greatly favors him.


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:30 pm 
 

Before I go further, I will say that my above diatribe was not directed at any one person (even though I excerpted parts of Deadlord36's post). It was an attempt to show the potential harm of a certain type of behavior.



Now an answer to the question about resellers and people who routinely outbid others so that they can resell an item:



As to those "who routinely outbid everyone and pay insane prices for items that they already own in order to trade or resell them?": It would not do them any good to pay an insane price if they were going to try an resell an item because it is an "insane" price...which would be a price that no one would normally pay. They would be unable to ever see a profit because they have bid to a level that no sane person would be willing to pay (unless of course they plan to distribute the items to people in insane asylums). People like this really do not exist. There are people like Burntwire that have decided that money is no object when it comes to having an item that they do not. When I say money is no object I do not mean that he is going to pay $10,000 for pre-pub, but he will be more than happy to pay at the highest ended value of an item and maybe then some. I would never begrudge him that because no item is unique, well, not truly unique unless you are talking about the author's working copies or something like that. Another brown box D&D will show up, if not tomorrow, then some time this year I am sure. Besides, I am not a high-end collector and have no intention of paying the amount of money it would take to get one.



Now let's say Burntwire goes out and gets a second POTVQ with the sole intention of trading it for something he does not have (I do not know if he has one already but this is just as an example). If that is what he HAS to do to get some rare item that he wants. Well, that's life. If he is doing just so that he can have two copies of the same print then I think he is just being greedy and is depriving another collector from having the same jewel that Burtwire already has. If someone is just bidding up values to protect the value of his own items then what can you say. If he wins then he is paying the price for his greed and speculation...and if he loses then he is a worthless SOB that just cost another collector a bunch of money that the collector did not have to bid...which is basically shill bidding and we all know what low-lifes those people are.  



In general, I do not like resellers (such as Cougarinnard). They drive up the prices and put many items out of reach of the casual collector...in a nutshell, they offer absolutely no benefit to the collecting community. Probably the best term for them is "auction parasite."



As to Deadlord's situation with the brown box D&D, he asked for a "Buy It Now" price and was given one. Fine...the seller probably should have posted it with one in the first place but there is really no extensive harm. The seller set the price and not the buyer. I am just hoping that you (plural) can see how people writing sellers and asking to sell outside of ebay can have a negative impact on what is probably the #1 avenue for the purchase of vintage D&D items. Not in ebay missing out on their cut, but on the hopeless uncertainty as to what a buyer should and would pay.



-PD



p.s. Burnie, sorry for using you in all of these examples, but you just seem to always be THE hot topic when something like this comes up and I hated to disappoint.

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2003 11:32 pm 
 

I really need to work on my brevity.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:37 am 
 

All very well said but unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world.

Lets go with a few scenarios here..



Scenario 1

You search ebay under AD&D and find a brand new listing with copy of H1 unpunched (or POTVQ or whatever)  for BUY-IT-NOW $10. Do you a) Snap that sucker up pronto or b) Email the seller to tell him he has listed his item for way way less than its worth.



Answer : I don't think there's anyone on these forums who would answer b). Seller looses out. Greed beats Honesty.



Scenario 2

You search ebay under AD&D and find a brand new listing with copy of H1 unpunched (or POTVQ or whatever). Do you a) Note the auction down , carefully watch it then snipe it at the last minute or b) Immediately post a message here and let everyone know that rare item is there so the 'best man may win'.

Answer : Again I don't think there's anyone on these forums who would answer b). Greed beats 'let the best man win policy'



Final point - agreed - sending a private offer to a seller does devalue the rarer items. However I think this only negatively affects those collectors who think 'my collection is worth $10000' instead of 'I have a beautiful collection of books'. I definately think the latter.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:37 am 
 

This is an interesting discussion in situational ethics.  However, I thought E-Bay discouraged this sort of side-dealing.  It may even be against the Terms of Conduct.  And while I have been known to break a rule or two myself, it seems inappropriate to encourage someone else to do it with you (the babe-in-the-woods seller who doesn't realize if someone offers to pay you $300 right now, they'll still be willing to in 7 days) and then blab on a public forum (!) about what you have done.



If anyone does this in the future, I would recommend not mentioning it on a bulletin board.  



On the other hand, ethically speaking, I don't have any problem with contacting the seller and asking him what he would take right now.  The seller gets what he thinks he is entitled to, without risking it going for less.  However, everyone ought to know what the rules are, or if there are any.



If I ever put my Woodgrain up for sale (2nd Edition, nearly perfect box - - not a crease, but light friction on the corners) and perfect books (with my best friend's name written inside the front covers - - damn him)  I will expect to get 14 e-mails offering to buy-it-now.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 5:32 am 
 

Scenario 2

You search ebay under AD&D and find a brand new listing with copy of H1 unpunched (or POTVQ or whatever). Do you a) Note the auction down , carefully watch it then snipe it at the last minute or b) Immediately post a message here and let everyone know that rare item is there so the 'best man may win'.




Personally, I don't believe it makes a big difference. The pro collectors among us will find it anyway due to intelligent search techniques. As stated in another topic, the only way to find a "dream deal" is being the first to find a super low "Buy it Now" or finding a ST1 on a yard sale for 1 pound (cheers malcolm) ...



I say if you can't beat em join them.




I think this is rather cynical. A better way would be to report known events of ending early auctions to eBay. This of course can only be done by bidders. eBay doesn't investigate that much but in these cases it's in their own interest since they're losing their fees on such auctions. If it ever happens to me that the auction was ended early and I suspect that it happened for the stated reason I will report it (and any time again). Plus, I'm not going to "join them" even if the struggle seems lost.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 9:52 am 
 

Personally, I don't believe it makes a big difference. The pro collectors among us will find it anyway due to intelligent search techniques



I wasn't talking about the difference it makes. Just the ethics.



eBay doesn't investigate that much but in these cases it's in their own interest since they're losing their fees on such auctions

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 10:44 am 
 

jagd wrote:The more canny would ask the seller to relist the auction as a 'private auction' and a buy it now.




Nice job on the 10th you just did the BIN on. I think it would have gone for more than $150 though given its condition. I was thinking it might actually approach $300 in this offering.



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2942396055


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:59 pm 
 

Jagd, I do not think that either of your examples have any relevance in this.



Scenario 1: the buyer has posted a price that everyone has the opportunity to involve themselves in. The price is up front and the first one to click the "buy it now" gets the item. That is not greed if someone buys it. A buy it now can never involve greed or subterfuge on the part of the buyer because it was the seller that set the price (unless of course the buyer knows the seller and the buyer intentionally appraised the item for the seller and gave a low-ball value). Now if the seller soon finds out the true value of the item and then refuses to sell, then that would be wrong (another case of know the value before you set a final price).



Scenario 2: If an item is listed and everyone has the opportunity to find it if they put the time in, that is not greed. If you took the time, you would also find it and if you do not take the time then that is not my fault. If I find a rare item, nowhere does it say that it would be unethical for me not to shout from the mountain-tops about my find. Everyone still has a chance if they take the time to look for it. That is not greed. Greed would be trying to circumvent everyone else's chance by offering a price in hopes of getting the item and preventing anyone else from bidding on it.



I will say this much, I have e-mailed people about their D&D items when they place them in obscure auction categories (they did not know that there was a specific category for roleplaying games) and I always mention this website as a source of information if they profess no knowledge about the value of their items. I will even give a fair and accurate assessment of an items value if they are curious. I could be a jerk and ask them what they have and give them a lowball price and spout off about the savings they will make on ebay fees, but that is not the type of person I am. In case you are wondering, I usually played a paladin for a player character and I like to think that this game of dungeons and dragons has actually helped me become a better person. There are not many games that you can say that about and I always bring this up if I am arguing with the holier-than-thou-bible-thumping crowd as to the merits of this game. It led me to serve in the US Army as a Ranger, not for adventure or glory, but because I wanted to serve my country, its people, and those that are too weak to defend themselves against petty tyrants (Star Spangled Banner playing in background). It may sound cheesy or goody-two-shoes, but it is the truth and I served with many others just like me.



-PD



P.S. as to others posting the rare items in this forum, I see that all the time and there are still a number of such posts on this board. I do not see how you can equate keeping quiet about some item being up for auction with trying to get the auction to end early with a private sale.

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:37 pm 
 

Nice job on the 10th you just did the BIN on. I think it would have gone for more than $150 though given its condition. I was thinking it might actually approach $300 in this offering.




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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:43 pm 
 

Foot baths?

  


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Post Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:30 pm 
 

The item category of the example Adam has provided.

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:10 pm 
 

Andy (jagd), do you fear for your reputation now that Adam uncovered you? Or why did you cut out that statement of yours (the one Adam quoted). I don't think you changed your mind, didn't you?

  


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Post Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2003 12:29 pm 
 

So Jagd is the one who won the 10th anniversary huh. One day it has bids, next thing, it has ended with a private buy it now.



Jagd, your the 10th anniversary hamburgler.  :lol:  :lol:

  
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