EGG / Stephen Marsh manuscript
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 1512, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 131415
Author


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 8:59 am 
 

hasty...??

Yes, and doubly so, since you're now referring to material the board hasn't even seen, yet... ;)
Suspect you're very close to the mark in various places (and in previous comments, above).

(heh. now I can't edit out the previous message, either...)

Later,
David.

  


Prolific Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 754
Joined: Feb 05, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 31, 2021

Post Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:35 pm 
 

Howdy David,


David your acrimony is becoming unpleasant. I will answer any questions you or others may have but I will not waste my time with someone who assails my character.

harami2000 wrote:Paul; why did you advertise the Mystic Rules, thus? ...
I'm almost certain you've just stripped out the third page from the back of the first installment of Steve's "Cupric Text" (for $ reasons) and left Mike with one page TOTALLY out of any context.


I did no such thing as you suggest. If I had found the entire document amongst the papers I would have sold it as such. I found only the one page and could not match it to any others in the collection. I asked Steve what the material was and he told me. I asked Steve if he knew where the rest of the original text to the Mystic class was and he told me lost to time.

I realized the importance of the document, partial though it was, and decided that as an artifact of the development of the D&D game that it was worthy of it's own auction. That's it, an honest attempt to offer something that would be of interest to the collecting community as a whole.

Your posts take the tone that I am engaged in some sort of nefarious chicanery. That is the furthest notion from truth. I brought this material to the collecting community as a collectable, that's it. Steve and I decided that whatever happened to the materials happened. He invested much of his time in it and has since moved on to other pursuits.

Remember, this stuff is still his intellectual property, regardless of whom may have the physical artifacts.


Futures bright,

Paul


The Collector's Trove The online auction house that features the collections of game designers and artists.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:12 pm 
 

stormber wrote:Your posts take the tone that I am engaged in some sort of nefarious chicanery. That is the furthest notion from truth. I brought this material to the collecting community as a collectable, that's it. Steve and I decided that whatever happened to the materials happened. He invested much of his time in it and has since moved on to other pursuits.

My previous posts suggested that you had been careless with Steve's legacy, given your lack of research into how all the material meshed together.
You were the one who indicated that the collection had been broken apart, at least in part to maximise the dollar return...
(And also made a comment to the effect that you disliked people sharing copies of the material (regardless of reason?) as doing so "devalued" them).

Even if that one page of the Cupric Text relating to the Mystic class had somehow become separated, it should not have taken long to find it's proper place. The header and footer are both in Steve's "standard format" for that publication.
Looking back at the auction, it took me only a few seconds to realise where the sheet had come from, even given a low-res image; hence my interjection to Ian.
*
Yes, I am sure Steve is 100% correct that the rest has been "lost to time" (with regards his /original/ outline for the Mystic), but not in the context of the archive. Sorry, you gave no indication you were quoting Steve, in the auction description.

stormber wrote:Remember, this stuff is still his intellectual property, regardless of whom may have the physical artifacts.

With regards the Cupric Text material, Steve's cover note states "Unless otherwise noted all material herein may be used by anyone for any purpose".

Regardless, I would obviously prefer that Steve is fully credited even in non-commercial context and would prefer that he could help guide in the manner in which this is brought back together again.
However, the Mikes (from whom I've heard nothing) and Ian have the publishable material; and much of that will, no doubt, stand alone- even without the extra hints and directions in Steve's underlying developmental framework.

Image

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1097
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 08, 2021
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:24 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:
stormber wrote:Remember, this stuff is still his intellectual property, regardless of whom may have the physical artifacts.

With regards the Cupric Text material, Steve's cover note states "Unless otherwise noted all material herein may be used by anyone for any purpose".


Paul, both your comments and Steve's own words seem to contradict each other.  So, rather then discussing on this forum could you please PM me Steve's contact details.  I would like to have a chat with Steve directly with regard to IP prior to persuing the development of the Manual further.

David, please note that even though I have been quiet I have still been listening (just very disappointed with the amount of noise on this forum recently).  As I stated awhile ago I am undertaking an assessment of the material prior to any decision to publish.  

You should go a bit easier on Paul.  I don't believe he intended any malace.  

Just to add some controversy ... after viewing the material I believe one of the biggest reasons for the manual not being published was NOT Gary leaving TSR but rather Gary's procrastination with regard to its publication.

All, to date the interest I have received on this forum with regard to releasing the Manual has been minimal (A big thanks to those who did say they wanted one). A greater show of hands (please) would help convice me that this is a viable venture.

 WWW  


Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6463
Joined: Dec 13, 2004
Last Visit: Dec 25, 2019

Post Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:34 pm 
 

improvstone wrote:
harami2000 wrote:
With regards the Cupric Text material, Steve's cover note states "Unless otherwise noted all material herein may be used by anyone for any purpose".


Paul, both your comments and Steve's own words seem to contradict each other. So, rather then discussing on this forum could you please PM me Steve's contact details. I would like to have a chat with Steve directly with regard to IP prior to persuing the development of the Manual further.

David, please note that even though I have been quiet I have still been listening (just very disappointed with the amount of noise on this forum recently). As I stated awhile ago I am undertaking an assessment of the material prior to any decision to publish.

You should go a bit easier on Paul. I don't believe he intended any malace.

Just to add some controversy ... after viewing the material I believe one of the biggest reasons for the manual not being published was NOT Gary leaving TSR but rather Gary's procrastination with regard to its publication.

All, to date the interest I have received on this forum with regard to releasing the Manual has been minimal (A big thanks to those who did say they wanted one). A greater show of hands (please) would help convice me that this is a viable venture.


Well, Count me as one who would definitely be interested in it if it is in fact produced. I would also offer any possible help that may be needed in the project. I am not sure exactly what would be needed to be done or how I could help specifically, but the offer still stands even if it is simply just getting the word out about it.


"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

  

User avatar

Site Admin

Posts: 2081
Joined: Oct 19, 2002
Last Visit: Feb 26, 2021
Location: Honolulu, HI

Post Posted: Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:38 pm 
 

I would think most of us here would be up for buying a copy.  Though I wouldn't think it'd be a factor in whether it's published or not -- if it's going to be a professionally-made hardback manual cranked out on a commercial press, we're talking thousands of copies.  Maybe 10,000 as a minimum order.  So I'd think that it's a much bigger business decision than just a few dozen orders from The Acaeum.  :)

Now, if we're talking about a PDF release or something on that scope, that's a whole different story.

Foul

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1251
Joined: Jan 01, 2003
Last Visit: Feb 21, 2021

Post Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:25 am 
 

I concur that most of us here will buy one, but whether that justifies the expenditure for a mass market print copy is debatable.  A PDF might be the wise initial route so a lot of money isn't sunk unprofitably.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 171
Joined: Apr 02, 2003
Last Visit: Feb 16, 2005
Location: Maryland, USA

Post Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:51 am 
 

At the very least, sell it as a pdf.  You'd probably make a bundle (hell, make a 1e version and an updated 3.5 version, and you'd make a killing since you could sell it twice).

  


Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5612
Joined: Nov 16, 2002
Last Visit: Feb 27, 2021
Location: Wichita, KS, USA

Post Posted: Tue Feb 08, 2005 7:22 am 
 

FoulFoot wrote:I would think most of us here would be up for buying a copy. Though I wouldn't think it'd be a factor in whether it's published or not -- if it's going to be a professionally-made hardback manual cranked out on a commercial press, we're talking thousands of copies. Maybe 10,000 as a minimum order. So I'd think that it's a much bigger business decision than just a few dozen orders from The Acaeum. :)

Now, if we're talking about a PDF release or something on that scope, that's a whole different story.


Based on what I've heard about the various mss., I don't believe that anyone's going to be printing thousands of copies unless they're being underwritten somehow:  products in the market just don't sell to that level of scale any longer.  

Tadashi and I are still more than willing to assist with the publication of the the planar materials, and have discussed them extensively at our last few meetings.


Allan Grohe ([email protected])
Greyhawk, grodog Style

Editor and Project Manager, Black Blade Publishing
https://www.facebook.com/BlackBladePublishing/

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6207
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 27, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:31 pm 
 

Paul,

I recall Steve answering questions about these manuscripts on another messageboard, but I'm unable to track the threads down.

There are editorial notes and corrections made to City of the Revenaunt, deletion of 'house rules', recommendations that 'passage comments be moved to the back of the module', and other errata.

They seem to be editorial amendments to bring the manuscript into line with TSR's publication criteria (of the time).

I was wondering if it were possible to confirm if that were the case (in which case, are the comments made by Gary?), or whether they were Steve's own editing notes (in which case some of the comments are odd as they are a critique of Steve's universe?).

These editorial corrections are not to be mistaken for the DM/playtest notes which also appear on the manuscript. These Steve has confirmed as his own.

I am trying to determine whether the manuscript was playtested and amended with notes (late '78 early '79 from discussion on another board with Steve), and then edited/reviewed by Gary (or another editor) for comment on meeting Dungeons & Dragons module publication criteria (possible during 1980?).

Any information you could elicit from Steve would be most welcome.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 4:58 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:There are editorial notes and corrections made to City of the Revenaunt, deletion of 'house rules', recommendations that 'passage comments be moved to the back of the module', and other errata.

Steve had his own "house rules" which would have to have been deleted/amended for "official" D&D tourney play.
"Moved to the back of the module" is interesting, although would be just as possible that referred to standardising the tourney "whole" from Steve's work (it is his paper stock, not someone else's...); and not necessarily for any particular publication effort.

I'd still like to know who the (stated/implied?) other "hand" at work is, since this was clearly used before Steve got back in touch with Gary.

mbassoc2003 wrote:I am trying to determine whether the manuscript was playtested and amended with notes (late '78 early '79 from discussion on another board with Steve), and then edited/reviewed by Gary (or another editor) for comment on meeting Dungeons & Dragons module publication criteria (possible during 1980?).

That doesn't tie in with the genesis of the Revenaunt, but there's still that gap and "other hand" I can't figure out; in order to turn it into a proper tourney.

No idea as to Gary's possible interest at a later date. Certainly not impossible since Steve was over there for his "summer job" and wouldn't necessitate screeds of letters to-and-fro.
I could understand why Steve might be somewhat cagey to discuss all that, however.

Am kinda blind on this, for some reason, Ian! ;)

=

Re. previous note:
"Steve indicated that he DM'd this City as a tournament module, and as a feature City within his ongoing campaign during '78 and'79."
(The latter half of that sentence in interesting; don't know whether you can take that totally in the manner you did, above).

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6207
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 27, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:24 pm 
 

Hi David,

The mid-'78 through '79 date came from a previous question I asked Steve. I was asking if the hand written DM notes were his, when it was played and if he remembered any of the players (as I have PC sheets and would have liked to put players to them).

Steve said that he used it in his campaigns quite a lot, and that he DM'd it himself as a tournament late in '78 and during '79.



The other notes on the module are clear signs of editing. There is a note to delete 'house rules' as you have surmised, to bring it into line with the D&D system.

'Material for use with D&D must be at least close to the D&D system. Granted, everybody runs things their own way, but those choices should be left up to them....'

Editorial note the put the abreviation 'dm' in caps.

Editorial note to 'Please put all plugs and recommendations at the back of the publication.'

Editorial note 'Further explanation needed.'

Along with numerous clarification on how the D&D rule system would apply to the plot, 'Some form of divine intervention would be required.'

And, 'Note that saving throws are applicable.'



This module would appear to have been developed for Steve's own campaign universe (and house rules/gameplay style) and at some point in this manuscript's history, it has been thoroughly edited with a view to being published as a D&D module (and by someone with good spelling and grammer). At what point I do not know, but it would seem to have occurred after play-testing, as some editorial comments refer to playtest notes.

The date of 'possibly 1980' was a blind stab in the dark by me.

I would like to know more about the life of this module though, and I suspect only Steve has the answers.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Fri Feb 25, 2005 6:58 pm 
 

(Thanks, Ian)

mbassoc2003 wrote:Steve said that he used it in his campaigns quite a lot, and that he DM'd it himself as a tournament late in '78 and during '79.

Now that is more like it. Yes; a world of difference with that small change in emphasis.
Agreed.

*bangs my head off the wall a few more times, frustrated at the original auction mis-description*. Yup, exactly as expected but the only "catch" was that later paper stock.
Suspect that's a possible re-edit/re-working/re-packaging (??) or enhancement for tourney play, etc. (??) by Steve, although you only have photocopies which is a pain....

Would really need to compare the rest of the "package" as well, but am pretty sure you've got older material in there, too (in fact I could quote you a precise date for the "genesis", but hopefully our research will meet in the middle somewhere along the line, and is useful to have you check with Steve for confirmations to tie those in).

"Plugs and recommendations" sounds like someone (not necessarily Gary) has had their paws on it... I /think/ that would be more likely TSR than Judges Guild, given the date- although it's pretty close.

mbassoc2003 wrote:This module would appear to have been developed for Steve's own campaign universe (and house rules/gameplay style)

"module" is perhaps slightly the wrong word in that "campaign" context perhaps...

*whistles innocently*
Well, would you have put in a high bid if you knew it was nothing to do with Gary Gygax at all?

mbassoc2003 wrote:....and at some point in this manuscript's history, it has been thoroughly edited with a view to being published as a D&D module (and by someone with good spelling and grammer).

*chuckles*. Know exactly what you mean... Grammar and spelling are definitely useful "markers" for authorial purposes, though!

mbassoc2003 wrote:At what point I do not know, but it would seem to have occurred after play-testing, as some editorial comments refer to playtest notes.

(or campaign notes; with further work in the context of the tourneys?)

mbassoc2003 wrote:The date of 'possibly 1980' was a blind stab in the dark by me.

Is as good as any, but is very time-sensitive in the context of JG vs. TSR (check the copies of the Dungeoneer and you'll see what I mean; aside from the correspondence I've got here).

mbassoc2003 wrote:I would like to know more about the life of this module though, and I suspect only Steve has the answers.

Had a fairly good idea and nothing to contradict that, thus far.

You keep saying "module"... ;)
That's kinda like saying "orange spine" in the context of the Planes material! :o
(Although you have slightly more justification, perhaps).

All the above JM 2 cents, of course! :D

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6207
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 27, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 2:34 am 
 

harami2000 wrote:You keep saying "module"... ;)
That's kinda like saying "orange spine" in the context of the Planes material! :o
(Although you have slightly more justification, perhaps).

I don't honestly know what to refer to it as. 'Campaign setting' is too ambitious and makes it out to be bigger than it really is. 'Adventure' is a rather generic and demeaning word when referring to someone's work. 'Tourney' implies a specific structure and use which also does not seem to apply.

I would refer to is as 'manuscript', but that becomes repetative, and does not give those who read this tread an idea of what we are discussing.

How would you refer to the content or the manuscript? Suggestions?

harami2000 wrote:Well, would you have put in a high bid if you knew it was nothing to do with Gary Gygax at all?

I think I would have paid what I paid for the manuscript regardless of whether Gary was involved in it's development or editing. It is tied directly to the development of Steve's concepts of the Planes of Existance, and if I had had the opportunity to snipe on that auction, the end price would have been higher. Maybe I wouldn't have won though. Mike gets what Mike wants. :D

Besides, unless Mayfair have the original squirrelled away somewhere, or Paul took photocopies, this manuscript is unique. I think the odds are in my favour. :D


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 4:39 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:How would you refer to the content or the manuscript? Suggestions?

"Scenario" sounds fine to me. Is generic enough to cover campaign scenario or adventure scenario.
(Later used/revised/reworked for tourney play(?).... but am still looking for firm evidence that you've got both "old" and "new" material in there beyond the 1977 Cupric Text extract).

"Module" similarly has too many implications in terms of design and intention, IMHO. (Was a useful sales pitch, though).

mbassoc2003 wrote:I think I would have paid what I paid for the manuscript regardless of whether Gary was involved in it's development or editing.

*g*. OK. Suffice to say you'd've had much tougher competition, then...

mbassoc2003 wrote:It is tied directly to the development of Steve's concepts of the Planes of Existance, and if I had had the opportunity to snipe on that auction, the end price would have been higher.

Yes, the Revenaunt is a branch or offshoot of that, via the Cupric Text campaign, and from a critical time period (even if not right back in 1969/72/75/whatever).
Suspect any poor sod who'd just won the auction at "face value" would have had difficulty working that out...

mbassoc2003 wrote:Besides, unless Mayfair have the original squirrelled away somewhere, or Paul took photocopies, this manuscript is unique. I think the odds are in my favour. :D

Don't know whether Mayfair ever received a copy of this in the first place.
(Also don't know whether Steve got his stuff back from them; and if so, would have thought all of it must have come back given the tone of his letter!).

Not sure why Paul would want to take a photocopy of a photocopy... ;)

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 1097
Joined: Aug 14, 2004
Last Visit: Jan 08, 2021
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 6:56 am 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote:.... Maybe I wouldn't have won though. Mike gets what Mike wants. :D


Not always ... still working on the world peace thing .... :-)

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6207
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 27, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 10:45 am 
 

improvstone wrote:Not always ... still working on the world peace thing .... :-)

I refer you to the editorial note above... 'Some form of divine intervention would be required.' :D

harami2000 wrote:"Scenario" sounds fine to me. Is generic enough to cover campaign scenario or adventure scenario.
(Later used/revised/reworked for tourney play(?).... but am still looking for firm evidence that you've got both "old" and "new" material in there beyond the 1977 Cupric Text extract).

Scenario it is then. With regard to dating the various elements of the work, I do not have any frame of reference with which to draw comparisons. I also do not know the individuals concerned, or the history of TSR and the other key RPG figures of the time.

I agree. The included extracts of the Cupric Texts appear on the surface to be the oldest elements within the text of the scenario. I doubt there is anything here from before 1977 (assuming that is when the Cupric Texts were written. Can anyone confirm this date?).

harami2000 wrote:*g*. OK. Suffice to say you'd've had much tougher competition, then...

What does *g* mean? It illudes me.

So perhaps I could have had it cheaper? Well, thems the way the dice fell... I am far more contented with my Revenaunt purchase than my PoVQ :D But with such a splendid exchange rate at the moment, I lose no sleap over PoVQ either. :D

harami2000 wrote:Don't know whether Mayfair ever received a copy of this in the first place.
(Also don't know whether Steve got his stuff back from them; and if so, would have thought all of it must have come back given the tone of his letter!).

Steve implied in a similar thread on Dragonsfoot, Pied Piper, wherever, that his manuscripts were not returned to him following Mayfair's colapse. He indicated that he was heartily displeased at this, as he had spent much time re-draughting the Planes of Existance into a more complete and presentable manuscript/package, and that it's loss resulted in much offpissness. This seems to have been the death knell for the book.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6207
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 27, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:01 pm 
 

Elaikases
Master of the Marsh wrote:
Hmm, some of the notes are mine, I'm not sure who else played with that one (Gary did see it at one time, I don't know if he commented on it -- I did not realize I had that copy until Paul sold it -- all for the better, but that left me not quite as ready to comment on it).

Spelling corrections would be an editor's work, not mine and if they are consistent with Gary's handwriting, could well be his.

Gary has always spelled much better than I have (though I'm learning, finally).

Late breaking news. Have asked for further clarification.
Does anyone here have any scribbled notes by Gary? Looks hopefully towards Mike. :)


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2639
Joined: Jan 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jan 11, 2006

Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:15 pm 
 

Elaikases
Master of the Marsh wrote:
Hmm, some of the notes are mine, I'm not sure who else played with that one (Gary did see it at one time, I don't know if he commented on it -- I did not realize I had that copy until Paul sold it -- all for the better, but that left me not quite as ready to comment on it).

Spelling corrections would be an editor's work, not mine and if they are consistent with Gary's handwriting, could well be his.

Gary has always spelled much better than I have (though I'm learning, finally).

Awww.... :)

I'm liking the sound of "I'm not sure who else played with that one" and intrigued by "but that left me not quite as ready to comment on it".

Keep researching, Ian... :D

=

*wonders again what Gary did with Steve's Elaikases material from back in 1975/6*

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6207
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Feb 27, 2021
Location: UK

Post Posted: Sat Feb 26, 2005 1:24 pm 
 

harami2000 wrote:*wonders again what Gary did with Steve's Elaikases material from back in 1975/6*

I know nothing of the backstory to this discussion. I get the impression that you know more about what I have that I do. Certainly more about the genesis or it, if not the actual text.

Do you have/keep notes on your perceived chronology of those early years (and the interactions between the main players), and would you care to share them?

I've tracked down one of my discussion threads, David. Check it out.
dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t= ... highlight=

I'm still searching for the others.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . chicken and wild rice soup.

 WWW  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 5 of 1512, 3, 4, 5, 6 ... 131415